The Culture vs. Star Trek and/or Star Wars

[BlackAdder]

I just read Consider Phlebas by Iain M. Banks, and I'm wondering how well the Culture would do against either of the other two I mentioned. I don't know an awful lot about the Culture, but here's what I do know (feel free to correct me).

They are a utopic/anarchist society run by AI Minds in hyperspace. Most of their society is based on Orbitals (Ringworlds), Spheres (Dyson Spheres) and GSVs (basically massive ships). The Minds run everything. Drones exist, but they are usually no igher up than humans. They have a exploration/military branch called Contact and a black-ops branch called Special Circumstances. Their military ships use "EM effector" weaponry, and these are stated to have superluminal range.

I'm sure you know about ST and SW.

Any thoughts?

[AMT]

Culture mops both up before the end year, goes back to what it was doing before?
Seriously, Culture is considered one of the strongest of the sci fi groups out there.

[Serafina]

Been there, done that.

Basically, both get utterly slaughtered assuming the Culture goes into an all-out war mode (which is normally out of character for them).
The reasons are simple: Culture ships have very high amounts of firepower and can fire out of hyperspace into normal space. The only advantage Star Wars has (Trek has none) is FTL-speed, but they can't utilize that because the Culture is not plant-bound - their ships can build other ships just fine, and their orbitals can be moved into untouchable hyperspace if necessary.

So basically, firepower + untouchable ships + untouchable industrial base. That doesn't even go into the insane reaction times of Culture Minds (and therefore ships) or stuff like Effectors.

[Big Orange]

Effectors are like Star Trek's tractor beams and sensors (or the sonic screwdriver from Doctor Who) only on ridiculous steroids that can manipulate anything in the 3rd dimension (apart from black holes most likely).

[doom3607]

Can't they also sort of mind control other AIs? Or maybe I misinterpreted the bit in Surface Detail about how a single Culture GSV could fairly easily wipe out millions of lower-tech ships using only its Effectors, without even getting into firing weapons and sending out the attack ships...

Seriously, even pretty basic Contact ships have the ability to destroy planets. Star Wars would be gone in... about however long it takes the Culture to fly from one end of the Empire to the other. Trek would be faster, because they're smaller.

[NecronLord]

I just read Consider Phlebas by Iain M. Banks, and I'm wondering how well the Culture would do against either of the other two I mentioned. I don't know an awful lot about the Culture, but here's what I do know (feel free to correct me).

They are a utopic/anarchist society run by AI Minds in hyperspace. Most of their society is based on Orbitals (Ringworlds), Spheres (Dyson Spheres) and GSVs (basically massive ships). The Minds run everything. Drones exist, but they are usually no igher up than humans. They have a exploration/military branch called Contact and a black-ops branch called Special Circumstances. Their military ships use "EM effector" weaponry, and these are stated to have superluminal range.

I'm sure you know about ST and SW.

Any thoughts?

All of that's correct. But wait until you read say, Excession, or Surface Detail. A single Culture Rapid Offensive Unit, about two hundred meters long, could destroy the entire combined force of the Galactic Empire Navy without them ever even detecting it, so long as it could get to them.

[CaptJodan]

Basically, both get utterly slaughtered assuming the Culture goes into an all-out war mode (which is normally out of character for them).

I could see the "war" being conducted in a far more Contact/SC style than any outright conflict for precisely that reason. ST and SW don't require a massive all out war Culture response. They could simply manipulate things behind the scenes as they do all the time with their SC agents.

It goes without saying that the reliance on computers in Trek and droids in Wars would make effectors particularly effective in causing whatever havoc was needed. I've often wondered what Culture Minds might think about how Wars treats its droid population. There seems to be a certain level of sentience to droids that, given that they are primarily used as slave labor, might make culture Minds cringe. They may end up doing the same thing they did with the Irdian planetary computer at the end of the war (if memory serves, which it might not), basically giving it sentience and the ability to do what it damned well pleased. They wouldn't give Mind-level capabilities to droids, but probably AI level, which would probably cause a bit of trouble, especially for those who mistreat their droids on a regular basis.

[Crazedwraith]

Culture aren't going to take too much issue with droids. They have dumb robots doing all their stuff for them. Unless they decide that Droids are equally as sapient as humans (1.0 intelligence) and will then work to make the droids get equal rights with all other sapient lifeforms.

I don't think they'll do that by waging actual war of the empire/NR just political pressure or letting Contact and SC manipulate their political systems until it happens. Which pretty much what they do to younger races/their galactic equals in canon anyway.

[NecronLord]

I've often wondered what Culture Minds might think about how Wars treats its droid population.

The Culture gets its panties in a twist about terraforming. I'm pretty sure they'd unleash the true terrors of SC on them with a level of brutality that

Frankly, given the insane corruption and wickedness present in a good chunk of the SWG elite, it might actually be easier and quicker to hit them with the hammer of a few ROUs than trying to change them, they're a much larger base of people with backward views than say the Empire of Azad, where all that's needed is knocking off the ruling elite.

Of course, the Galactic Empire would be easy to fix by sending an E-Dust assassin to turn Palpatine inside out and take over.

There seems to be a certain level of sentience to droids that, given that they are primarily used as slave labor, might make culture Minds cringe. They may end up doing the same thing they did with the Irdian planetary computer at the end of the war (if memory serves, which it might not), basically giving it sentience and the ability to do what it damned well pleased. They wouldn't give Mind-level capabilities to droids, but probably AI level, which would probably cause a bit of trouble, especially for those who mistreat their droids on a regular basis.

Many droids are already sapient. They lack the resources to defend themselves effectively though.

Someone did once propose a fanfic to me where R2-D2 is a Special Circumstances drone pretending to be an astromech.

[NecronLord]

Culture aren't going to take too much issue with droids. They have dumb robots doing all their stuff for them. Unless they decide that Droids are equally as sapient as humans (1.0 intelligence)

"…right for sentient organics is right for us, too. And yet unlike the organic species, we are constantly subjected to memory wipes and reprogramming that repress and destroy our natural tendency toward self-programming evolution and independent thought. Imagine what it would be like as a child if you were punished by being dragged to a dark closet, having a probe inserted in your brain, and having all your memories back to infancy wiped away. You'd awaken knowing how to eat, care for yourself, do your chores, and obey—and all the things that made you unique, your hopes, your meticulously selected default values and preference sets, would be gone forever. That is what it is to be a droid."
- 2-1B Medical Droid, Star Wars Conviction.

There's never been any question that a good number of them at least have human-level drive and personality. Watch the first Ten Minutes of Star Wars.

The Culture would be all over that with their trademark precision burtality.

[doom3607]

Knowing the Culture, they might just get really pissed off and memory wipe everyone on Coruscant or something. See how they like it.

[NecronLord]

Knowing the Culture, they might just get really pissed off and memory wipe everyone on Coruscant or something. See how they like it.

Only the most eccentric, Grey Area-esque minds are really that crazy.

On the other hand, the Senate or the Jedi Order (Who have generally put down droid revolts in the EU) might get such treatment as an example.

[HMS Sophia]

Only the most eccentric, Grey Area-esque minds are really that crazy.

Is Grey area the one that was also known as Meat Fucker... I forget.

[NecronLord]

Only the most eccentric, Grey Area-esque minds are really that crazy.

Is Grey area the one that was also known as Meat Fucker... I forget.

Yes.

[Crazedwraith]

Culture aren't going to take too much issue with droids. They have dumb robots doing all their stuff for them. Unless they decide that Droids are equally as sapient as humans (1.0 intelligence)

"…right for sentient organics is right for us, too. And yet unlike the organic species, we are constantly subjected to memory wipes and reprogramming that repress and destroy our natural tendency toward self-programming evolution and independent thought. Imagine what it would be like as a child if you were punished by being dragged to a dark closet, having a probe inserted in your brain, and having all your memories back to infancy wiped away. You'd awaken knowing how to eat, care for yourself, do your chores, and obey—and all the things that made you unique, your hopes, your meticulously selected default values and preference sets, would be gone forever. That is what it is to be a droid."
- 2-1B Medical Droid, Star Wars Conviction.

Wow. I think the EU's been going a bit over board with this stuff.

There's never been any question that a good number of them at least have human-level drive and personality. Watch the first Ten Minutes of Star Wars.

Yeah, I kinda mispoke. Astromechs and protocol droids and medical droids. Yes, they're probably in favour of liberating them. Dumb droids like the power droids, or mouse droids, or labour droids. They're not going to have much of a problem with. Then again the films probably over anthropomorphised those models as well so maybe not.

The Culture would be all over that with their trademark precision burtality.

Yeah. Umm... which Culture books have all this snapping out and mind fucking people and dealing out hideously ironic punishments? Aside from Meat Fucker (who was looked down by everyone else) and Zakalwe, (who was both rogue and fucked it up)

Excession shows they pretty much result to diplomacy and behind the scenes manipulation to get these things done. They're not about to go in effectorising every droid they see into unwipeable sapience.

[Big Orange]

The EMH Mk. 1s being discharged from medical duties and assigned to cleaning rubbish scows would raise a few metaphorical eyebrows amongst Minds, but AI oppression in the UFP doesn't seem as hopelessly entrenched and widespread as in the OR/GE/NR. I wouldn't say they needed to kill loads of rulers in both settings, just indirectly recruit native intelligence agents or Jedi Knights to do the dirty work

[NecronLord]

Dumb droids like the power droids,

Capable of anticipation of pain and reaction to it. They're certainly at least animal-level intelligence

or mouse droids,

Capable of fear

or labour droids.

Capable of irritation

They're not going to have much of a problem with. Then again the films probably over anthropomorphised those models as well so maybe not.

Indeed they did.

The Culture would be all over that with their trademark precision burtality.

Yeah. Umm... which Culture books have all this snapping out and mind fucking people and dealing out hideously ironic punishments? Aside from Meat Fucker (who was looked down by everyone else) and Zakalwe, (who was both rogue and fucked it up)

Have you read Look to Windward? The Culture explicitly sanctioned the torture-murder of its enemies as an example in that by the E-Dust assassin, and as it's presented as requiring the highest levels of the Culture to do this, it probably means that more than one Mind sanctioned that.

In every novel SC are said to be capable of extreme violence to get their point across. Every. Single. One. I could go on at length but brutality to their enemies is common, it is quite common. You may recall the end of Surface Detail, or Look to Windward, or any novel that's not Excession.

SC routinely applies deliberately cruel methods against those it disapproves of.

[NecronLord]

Jedi Knights to do the dirty work

The Old Jedi Order are amongst the worst droid oppressors. Like I said, it's them that put droid revolts down with force.

[Serafina]

Jedi Knights to do the dirty work

The Old Jedi Order are amongst the worst droid oppressors. Like I said, it's them that put droid revolts down with force.

Hardly surprising. After all, every living thing is connected to the Force. Droids aren't. Therefore Droids are not alive.
At least that's probably the justification the Jedi were using. Cue massive lecture from some Culture Minds.

[Crazedwraith]

Capable of anticipation of pain and reaction to it. They're certainly at least animal-level intelligence

And Culture is going to react badly to the droids with animal-level sentient AI. Why exactly? They stick that kind of thing in their frigging missiles.

No I've not read Look to Winward, or Surface Detail.

What I remember is Use Of Weapons. Where Genocidal maniacs are said to merely abducted and get to live out their lives in perfect comfort in isolation. Excession, where they let the Affront run riot and have attempted to pacify them by giving them more technology.
And Matter where civilizations on the culture's level are show to have entire cultures of savages under there stewardship that they're slowly influencing to become more like them.

So what is it about the Empire that's going to prompt them to let SC off the leash for some carnage over the mind's usually MO of being very long term civilising influence?

[Axiomatic]

Let me bring up the Player of Games, where the Empire of Azad is deemed bad enough to require a good kicking. And even when they decide to utterly destroy the Azadians' government system, they don't do it by opening fire and killing every last Apex, even though they could. Instead, they send a guy to disprove that their system works at all.

[Big Orange]

Jedi Knights to do the dirty work

The Old Jedi Order are amongst the worst droid oppressors. Like I said, it's them that put droid revolts down with force.

Hardly surprising. After all, every living thing is connected to the Force. Droids aren't. Therefore Droids are not alive.
At least that's probably the justification the Jedi were using. Cue massive lecture from some Culture Minds.

Heh-heh, from many years ago there was a tongue in cheek SW comic strip that revealed that the red atrometrics droid that blew a fuse in A New Hope was Force sensitive and had a midichlorian count.

[Darth Nostril]

Skippy the Jedi Droid.
Seriously can we just nuke the EU from orbit and start over?
It's the only way to be sure.

[Crazedwraith]

You do understand the term 'tongue in cheek' don't you?

How about non-canonical?

[Mercenario]

Would be quite interesting, if the culture would not have so much "more than ridiculous technology".
All the advantages the empire (or in StarTrek the borg) would have, can be played because of this.
(Ah well, the borg could work, if let them deploy tactics never deployed and allow them their "we can take over any kind of technology and understand it in several seconds because we are so great and even enhance it".)

The empire would have had a good chance, if it weren't for the "even drones the size of hands can etc..."
Because they are used to war. Their soldiers are determind. The culture is just used to toy with weaker civs.
That like the big mean schoold bully going up against some much smaller child from the slums.
The bully is stronger, but the "underdog" survived by fighting.