Samus Aran vs. Darth Vader

[Darth Yoshi]

Umm, no it's not. No one knows what happens to her body when she does that and the Space Pirates who tried to replicate the technology all got horribly maimed in the process. They most definately used a physical process to try and replicate it and considering they are her primary opponents I would think they'd have the best idea how her stuff works. Keep in mind they did manage to replicate her beam weapons, something the Galactic Federation as of Fusion is still having problems with.

The reason that the Pirate prototype failed was because it is physically impossible to safely compress a 2m humanoid into a 1m sphere. Ergo, the Chozo cheated somehow, like with most of their tech. If so, why not energy? It fits with the whole "Ghost" thing that the Chozo were apparently capable of (IIRC, the Prime lore treated the Chozo Ghosts as remarkable only because the Phazon had driven them mad, implying that they were familiar with astral projection or something similar).

The ony logical conclusion for Samus's ingame abilities with matter and energy I've seen is that her power suit has a built in matter/energy conversion system.

Basically, her suit can scoope up matter, and covert say, dead Metroid parts into Super Missile fuel.

Her weapon capacity and loads are therefore limited by her unboard storage/memory capacity.

In short - she has the abilities Star Trek fan-boys wish Replicators had.

The Crystal Flash trick in Super Metroid pretty much confirms this, by sacrificing ammo for shields.

Every time a Jedi or Sith uses the force to move more than a pine-sized object (ie. Darth Maul when he TK's something small to open the gates to the reactor of Theed), he stands still and focuses up to including Yoda and Palpatine who are among the strongest Force users. That's in all the movies and the cartoon series. Does the rest of the EU have Jedi/Sith throwing bigger objects around while in quick motion? I don't know, examples would be appreciated.

Actually, Dooku tips over the pillar pretty quickly in AOTC. In fact, he's saber-locked with Yoda when he does it. Now you could argue that all he did was crush part of the pillar and let gravity do the rest, but Samus' innards are undoubtedly less difficult to manipulate that a metal pillar.

In any case, IIRC in one of the Clone Wars era books Anakin and Ventress are said to be using the Force to hinder each other's movements during a lightsaber duel. Unfortunately, I don't have a source, but a quick Google search has references to Anakin using TK to keep the Tuskens from fleeing (in the AOTC novel, presumably). Even if Vader is a crippled has-been compared to Anakin, boxing in a single opponent is still a far simpler prospect that an entire tribe.

Basically, as much as I like Samus she's still a squishy meatbag, Vader has no shortage of ways to attack her directly with the Force.

[Steven Snyder]

If Vader can squeeze her windpipe, Vader can squeeze her cerebellum.

All the power armor and missiles are great but when your foe can grasp your spinal cord and tear it free, burst your eyeballs, or use your grey matter for play-dough; yeah I give it to Vader hands down.

[Enigma]

And if Vader gets too pissed off\frustrated\whatever, he'll involuntarily use his Force Scream and crush her like a bug.

[Formless]

If nobody minds me asking, why is everyone assuming that Vader's telekinesis is an unlimited "I win" button? I'm not talking about whether or not he could theoretically pull off such feats, but combat isn't exactly an ideal situation to use them.

Looking at the many battles involving Force users throughout the saga, telekinetic attacks (especially of the anatomy crushing variety) appear to be infrequent compared to swordsmanship. This may be a cultural preference (i.e. showing off) but even then it suggests Vader may not fight in an optimally efficient manner given his abilities. He was, after all, a trained Jedi with all the baggage of his era that implies. Furthermore, its not just battles between force users that telekinetic attacks are rare, its all battles involving force users where they are infrequent. Why?

If I had to speculate, we know that using the force takes concentration. How much of this is of the meditative "clear your mind" sort and how much of this is of the "where is the target? Okay, now I need to apply pressure here and here-- shit more blaster fire? Now where was I-- Oh, yeah, strangling some dude..." I don't know, but either kind is going to be difficult to achieve when you have a fast moving target pinning you down with rapid fire energy attacks and/or sword blows (depending on the nature of the fight). For example, we know that force users in lightsaber duels use defensive force techniques during battle, and we can also see force users who do use telekinetic attacks doing so generally when their opponent has left an opening they can exploit. But how much of those techniques are invisible, unverifiable attempts to nullify telekinetic and mental attacks and how many of those are simple augmentations to a user's agility so that the defender isn't in one place long enough to get choked, pushed, or lightsabered?

Related to this, if telekinesis is such an awesome way for a Jedi to end a fight with a non-force user why did Obi-Wan not use telekinesis against Jango Fett? How is it that a bounty hunter In the Star Wars films themselves was able to pin down an elite Jedi knight in his prime using heavy firepower and subsequently escape into space? And don't tell me that Obi Wan wouldn't use telekinesis this way due to it being a Dark Side power or some bullshit-- look up juijitsu sometime. Telekinetic attacks can come in many forms, not all of which have to be deadly.

Of course, it goes without saying that this thread is stupid due to the fact we cannot honestly quantify the tech of a video game character like Samus. But that's no excuse to act like a bunch of wankers.

[Norade]

If nobody minds me asking, why is everyone assuming that Vader's telekinesis is an unlimited "I win" button? I'm not talking about whether or not he could theoretically pull off such feats, but combat isn't exactly an ideal situation to use them.

Looking at the many battles involving Force users throughout the saga, telekinetic attacks (especially of the anatomy crushing variety) appear to be infrequent compared to swordsmanship. This may be a cultural preference (i.e. showing off) but even then it suggests Vader may not fight in an optimally efficient manner given his abilities. He was, after all, a trained Jedi with all the baggage of his era that implies. Furthermore, its not just battles between force users that telekinetic attacks are rare, its all battles involving force users where they are infrequent. Why?

If I had to speculate, we know that using the force takes concentration. How much of this is of the meditative "clear your mind" sort and how much of this is of the "where is the target? Okay, now I need to apply pressure here and here-- shit more blaster fire? Now where was I-- Oh, yeah, strangling some dude..." I don't know, but either kind is going to be difficult to achieve when you have a fast moving target pinning you down with rapid fire energy attacks and/or sword blows (depending on the nature of the fight). For example, we know that force users in lightsaber duels use defensive force techniques during battle, and we can also see force users who do use telekinetic attacks doing so generally when their opponent has left an opening they can exploit. But how much of those techniques are invisible, unverifiable attempts to nullify telekinetic and mental attacks and how many of those are simple augmentations to a user's agility so that the defender isn't in one place long enough to get choked, pushed, or lightsabered?

Related to this, if telekinesis is such an awesome way for a Jedi to end a fight with a non-force user why did Obi-Wan not use telekinesis against Jango Fett? How is it that a bounty hunter In the Star Wars films themselves was able to pin down an elite Jedi knight in his prime using heavy firepower and subsequently escape into space? And don't tell me that Obi Wan wouldn't use telekinesis this way due to it being a Dark Side power or some bullshit-- look up juijitsu sometime. Telekinetic attacks can come in many forms, not all of which have to be deadly.

Of course, it goes without saying that this thread is stupid due to the fact we cannot honestly quantify the tech of a video game character like Samus. But that's no excuse to act like a bunch of wankers.

If one side gets crazy video game stats then the other should bust out everything it can to counter. If we go by the games Vader mows basic troops down with ease and can force choke you while running by.

[Darth Tedious]

It should be noted that in ESB, we see Vader using TK while still in swordplay with Luke. The first oject he throws comes from side-on, while he is looking directly at Luke.
Their sabers are locked up at the time, but this is still an example of TK not requiring the user to be doing absolutely nothing else. The fact Vader didn't need to look at what he was doing indicates an ability to sense the location of the object being thrown.

If we go by the games Vader mows basic troops down with ease and can force choke you while running by.

Hell, if we use EAW as an example, Vader can crush heavy tanks.

[Formless]

If one side gets crazy video game stats then the other should bust out everything it can to counter. If we go by the games Vader mows basic troops down with ease and can force choke you while running by.

Except that one side has a pesky canon system we're supposed to abide by. Sorry, but in this case turnabout is not fair play.

Sorry, but I just don't get why people get a free pass for using comic book tactics where it comes to Force users. This thread just egged me on for that reason.

[Darth Yoshi]

We know that Jedi are capable of acrobatic feats in combat. Vader, stuck in that suit, is comparatively far more limited in his mobility. But since Vader was known for hunting Jedi, the fact that he is simply less agile than other Jedi must not have been a factor. That means that either Vader uses the Force to keep up (which doesn't match what we see of his fighting style), or he's using the Force to slow his enemies down. Jedi could potentially compensate with their own usage of the Force, but Samus is at a disadvantage.

[avatarxprime]

Umm, no it's not. No one knows what happens to her body when she does that and the Space Pirates who tried to replicate the technology all got horribly maimed in the process. They most definately used a physical process to try and replicate it and considering they are her primary opponents I would think they'd have the best idea how her stuff works. Keep in mind they did manage to replicate her beam weapons, something the Galactic Federation as of Fusion is still having problems with.

The reason that the Pirate prototype failed was because it is physically impossible to safely compress a 2m humanoid into a 1m sphere. Ergo, the Chozo cheated somehow, like with most of their tech. If so, why not energy? It fits with the whole "Ghost" thing that the Chozo were apparently capable of (IIRC, the Prime lore treated the Chozo Ghosts as remarkable only because the Phazon had driven them mad, implying that they were familiar with astral projection or something similar).

Well the Chozo Ghosts are described as "Spectral entities," just like Phantoon from Super Metroid. The Pirates would obviously be very familiar with them then seeing as how Phantoon is a high ranking member of their organization. Also given the appearance of the Ghosts, Phantoon and their relation to the dimension hopping (teleportation) that Ing infected Pirates are capable of look and act nothing like Samus in morph ball mode I'd be hesistant to say that the two technologies are related. Besides, there are plenty of other examples, like every hunter from Metroid Prime Hunters except for Weavel (he splits in half, so really that doesn't count). All of the other hunters can change their form as well and become far more compact, some are even purely biological (if by biological you don't mind sentient rock creatures). Heck, Sylux is described as using prototype Galactic Federation armor and weapons which most likely are an attempt at copying Samus' abilities given the similarities. He does do the energy ball thing too, but we don't really know what that is, it could be some kind of hammer space action for all we know.

The ony logical conclusion for Samus's ingame abilities with matter and energy I've seen is that her power suit has a built in matter/energy conversion system.

Basically, her suit can scoope up matter, and covert say, dead Metroid parts into Super Missile fuel.

Her weapon capacity and loads are therefore limited by her unboard storage/memory capacity.

In short - she has the abilities Star Trek fan-boys wish Replicators had.

The Crystal Flash trick in Super Metroid pretty much confirms this, by sacrificing ammo for shields.

Given how it's portrayed in the Super Metroid Nintendo Power comic it seemed more like Samus cooks off her weapons and then somehow channels that energy into her body (the comic)/power suit (the game) in order to patch herself up. In the comic she performs the technique while inside some Chozo healing sphere so it is something that requires Chozo tech to pull off. Considering the Chozo created the Metroids, it probably utilizes technology similar to that used by the Metroids to harvest energy.

If one side gets crazy video game stats then the other should bust out everything it can to counter. If we go by the games Vader mows basic troops down with ease and can force choke you while running by.

Except that one side has a pesky canon system we're supposed to abide by. Sorry, but in this case turnabout is not fair play.

Sorry, but I just don't get why people get a free pass for using comic book tactics where it comes to Force users. This thread just egged me on for that reason.

Yeah and in canon Jedi have no problem using offensive Force powers on droids in combat situations, it's only against biologics that they tend to rain it in. However, Sith have no such hold-ups in combat so Samus gets wasted by Force powers. In the Clone Wars cartoon, when Dooku is training Grievous he uses Force powers on him specifically to point out that unless you come at a Jedi sufficiently hard and fast enough the Jedi will take you down with the Force, that was the reason for the terror tactics he used. Jedi don't want to accidently squish a living being and that requires focus, Sith could care less.

[Formless]

Yeah and in canon Jedi have no problem using offensive Force powers on droids in combat situations, it's only against biologics that they tend to rain it in. However, Sith have no such hold-ups in combat so Samus gets wasted by Force powers. In the Clone Wars cartoon, when Dooku is training Grievous he uses Force powers on him specifically to point out that unless you come at a Jedi sufficiently hard and fast enough the Jedi will take you down with the Force, that was the reason for the terror tactics he used. Jedi don't want to accidently squish a living being and that requires focus, Sith could care less.

You make it sound like Vader could have singlehandedly walked through the defenders of the Tantiv IV by force choking them, yet for some reason he let the stormtroopers go first and take casualties. And he did so again when he personally stormed the rebel base at Hoth. Why exactly do we never see him use these awesome Sith telekinetic attacks against anyone in the films who aren't wearing an Imperial Officer's uniform or are Padme? Seriously, this isn't hard.

What is also not hard is understanding my argument against the idiotic assumption that telekinetic attacks must be harmful to organics and that this must be why the Jedi don't use them. In fact, there are people in this thread claiming you can also use telekinesis to slow an opponent down, a non-lethal telekinetic technique! Yet Obi Wan still lost to Jango. And must I point out that Luke used the force choke to incapacitate guards at Jabba's palace? I wonder who taught him how to do that. And there is the hilarity that the Jedi are fine with cutting someone with an energy blade, but consider telekinetic attacks uncouth to use on organics.

As much as I like Clone Wars, I don't really turn to it as evidence of much of anything-- its too heavy on the stylization to be trusted.

[Simon_Jester]

And there is the hilarity that the Jedi are fine with cutting someone with an energy blade, but consider telekinetic attacks uncouth to use on organics.

Point of detail:

The Jedi are a religious order, who harbor strong beliefs about the metaphysical effects of using the force. These beliefs may not be entirely true, but they're not without evidence- certainly many of the things the Jedi warn their initiates against as 'paths to the dark side' have resulted in Force users becoming mad with Dark Side power and doing terrible things.

So they may have hangups about using the Force as a weapon of attack, while having no such hangups about impaling their enemies on energy blades. Perhaps they believe that to use the Force to choke or electrocute someone to death is to court corruption and madness. While using a lightsaber to kill someone can (potentially) be done without risking such corruption- it's a tool that can be used for evil, but even if you use it for evil, it doesn't use you back. The Force does.

And maybe that's why "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge, and defense. Never for attack."

And hell, maybe they're right.

So no, that doesn't strike me as hilarious. The Force is a supernatural phenomenon with well-known abilities to affect the minds of its wielders. Should we be surprised that the more stable and relatively decent organizations devoted to using it have taboos about how not to use it?

[Darth Yoshi]

Well the Chozo Ghosts are described as "Spectral entities," just like Phantoon from Super Metroid. The Pirates would obviously be very familiar with them then seeing as how Phantoon is a high ranking member of their organization. Also given the appearance of the Ghosts, Phantoon and their relation to the dimension hopping (teleportation) that Ing infected Pirates are capable of look and act nothing like Samus in morph ball mode I'd be hesistant to say that the two technologies are related. Besides, there are plenty of other examples, like every hunter from Metroid Prime Hunters except for Weavel (he splits in half, so really that doesn't count). All of the other hunters can change their form as well and become far more compact, some are even purely biological (if by biological you don't mind sentient rock creatures). Heck, Sylux is described as using prototype Galactic Federation armor and weapons which most likely are an attempt at copying Samus' abilities given the similarities. He does do the energy ball thing too, but we don't really know what that is, it could be some kind of hammer space action for all we know.

I'm not so sure that the Dark Pirate Commando shares more than a superficial resemblance to the Chozo Ghost. Yeah, they can both go through walls, but the Commando was said to be warping through them, while the Ghost was a disembodied spirit. And given that both the Super Metroid Phantoon and the Ghost could turn invisible as well as intangible, if the Morph Ball really was a spectral anchor then as long as the spirit remained invisible we would never know.

As for Sylux, we really don't know much beyond that it uses mostly Fed spec gear and that it hates the Federation. Speculation is that Sylux was betrayed at some point by the Federation, but considering what we know of the last attempt at reverse-engineering the Morph Ball, maybe the Lockjaw wasn't quite as successful as it seems.

Of course, I'll readily admit that the whole idea was basically a tongue-in-cheek way of claiming that the Morph Ball mode in Prime was still 1st person, relying on an appeal to ignorance, back before Echoes came out with a 3rd person Screw Attack. *shrugs*

Given how it's portrayed in the Super Metroid Nintendo Power comic it seemed more like Samus cooks off her weapons and then somehow channels that energy into her body (the comic)/power suit (the game) in order to patch herself up. In the comic she performs the technique while inside some Chozo healing sphere so it is something that requires Chozo tech to pull off. Considering the Chozo created the Metroids, it probably utilizes technology similar to that used by the Metroids to harvest energy.

Yeah, but in the comic Old Bird only mentions Power Bombs, while in-game the trick consumes 10 each of Missiles, Super Missiles, and Power Bombs in addition to the Power Bomb that sets the whole thing off. The fact that the ammo is depleted sequentially at a constant rate makes me question the idea of cooking off her weapons and absorbing the backlash, since that's generally a much more random, and hence unreliable, process. It would be safer, I think, if her ammo count actually measured how much energy was available for her suit to conjure a particular projectile and the Crystal Flash shunted that energy into the shields.

[ChosenOne54]

[If one side gets crazy video game stats then the other should bust out everything it can to counter.

Meh, I'd just like to point out that those 'crazy video game stats' are pretty much the only info we have on Metroid, except for the manga (which isn't much better).

[Solauren]

Can I point the reason we don't see alot of TK in Force-user combat is that they are usually fighting other Force-Users?

It's been discussed on this board before, when someone brought up their sword teacher using Jedi combat as a example of 'bad swordsmanship'.

You try TK against an opponent with TK, the guy with TK is going to counter it.

Hell, we saw that on screen in Revenge of the Sith when Anakin/Vader and Kenobi both forced pushed at each other at the same time.

However, in this case, Samus has no way to defend against it, so Vader can go nuts with it.

Hell, we've seen Jedi and Sith use physical and Force combat at the same time.

Count Dooku fighting Anakin and Kenobi on the INvisible Hand comes to mind. YOu know, when he kicked ANakin then turned and sent Kenobi flying with a Force push?

The 'Brute Force' Force based TK attacks require little to no concentration. It's the stuff that's finese (i.e Dooku then collapsing a balcony to pin Kenobi) that requires more effort.

We also have examples from the novels of someone blocking a physical attack, or launching one, while at the same time hurling something with the Force.

[Metahive]

You try TK against an opponent with TK, the guy with TK is going to counter it.

Not true. Anakin and Ventress frequently attack each other with Force TK and they rarely are able to block or counter it.

However, in this case, Samus has no way to defend against it, so Vader can go nuts with it.

The Force isn't a gamewinner when it comes to battling non-Force sensitive SW bounty hunters or space pirates, so why should it be one against Samus? Is she so much weaker than them?

[Norade]

However, in this case, Samus has no way to defend against it, so Vader can go nuts with it.

The Force isn't a gamewinner when it comes to battling non-Force sensitive SW bounty hunters or space pirates, so why should it be one against Samus? Is she so much weaker than them?

The only time bounty hunters give force users any problems is when they get the drop on them and push the attack. In this case Vader is more likely to get the drop than Samus as they both enter the room at the same time and he has a chance to get his precog on while she's expecting more metroids or something.

[keen320]

Is the force really going to tell Vader in time that he needs to use the force? I mean, it will tell him something of what he will face, that she could be dangerous, not weak-minded, stuff like that, but is it really going to tell him specifically, "oh yeah, there's a good chance you can't block her shots with your saber, so you better just choke her?" If Vader goes into this thinking he can win with just his saber, that may give Samus all the time she needs, since if she hits him even once, even if he isn't instantly dead, he's frozen and at her mercy.

Even powerful force users can get surprised sometimes, after all. Palpatine, for example?

[Norade]

Is the force really going to tell Vader in time that he needs to use the force? I mean, it will tell him something of what he will face, that she could be dangerous, not weak-minded, stuff like that, but is it really going to tell him specifically, "oh yeah, there's a good chance you can't block her shots with your saber, so you better just choke her?" If Vader goes into this thinking he can win with just his saber, that may give Samus all the time she needs, since if she hits him even once, even if he isn't instantly dead, he's frozen and at her mercy.

Even powerful force users can get surprised sometimes, after all. Palpatine, for example?

He may get an inlking that shes a deadly foe, not to mention that if she doesn't kill him then he's likely to get angry and thus make his link to the darkside stronger.

[Formless]

So no, that doesn't strike me as hilarious. The Force is a supernatural phenomenon with well-known abilities to affect the minds of its wielders. Should we be surprised that the more stable and relatively decent organizations devoted to using it have taboos about how not to use it?

Problem-- since Jedi do freely use TK attacks against droids and teach at least some students such as Luke how to use them against organics as a method of incapacitation (as opposed to torture), I doubt their hangups about personal corruption like in the various Star Wars RPG's is the whole story here.

As for Sith Lightning, I think that can be explained quite easily as a technique that most Jedi simply would not know how to use thanks to the fact that its an element of Sith magic, a different force tradition altogether and one that takes pride in its animosity with the Jedi.

Can I point the reason we don't see alot of TK in Force-user combat is that they are usually fighting other Force-Users?

It's been discussed on this board before, when someone brought up their sword teacher using Jedi combat as a example of 'bad swordsmanship'.

You try TK against an opponent with TK, the guy with TK is going to counter it.

Hell, we saw that on saw that on screen in Revenge of the Sith when Anakin/Vader and Kenobi both forced pushed at each other at the same time.

And every time we see such counters used in the films there is obvious gesturing and visible bending of light where the opposing TK "waves" are interacting. This is quite different from the books where they effortlessly multitask using TK and TK nullification while simultaneously swinging their swords. So no, I think the evidence at the highest level of canon does not support this conclusion:

However, in this case, Samus has no way to defend against it, so Vader can go nuts with it.

Because again, Samus is not going to stand still while Vader tries to choke her, she's going to be using suppression fire tactics just like Jango did when he escaped from Obi Wan at Kamino. Though how effective they will be depends entirely on how powerful her tech actually is, which is the real unknown here due to her being a video game character.

[Norade]

So no, that doesn't strike me as hilarious. The Force is a supernatural phenomenon with well-known abilities to affect the minds of its wielders. Should we be surprised that the more stable and relatively decent organizations devoted to using it have taboos about how not to use it?

Problem-- since Jedi do freely use TK attacks against droids and teach at least some students such as Luke how to use them against organics as a method of incapacitation (as opposed to torture), I doubt their hangups about personal corruption like in the various Star Wars RPG's is the whole story here.

Except that Luke =/= traditional Jedi. The material makes this rather clear.

[Formless]

So no, that doesn't strike me as hilarious. The Force is a supernatural phenomenon with well-known abilities to affect the minds of its wielders. Should we be surprised that the more stable and relatively decent organizations devoted to using it have taboos about how not to use it?

Problem-- since Jedi do freely use TK attacks against droids and teach at least some students such as Luke how to use them against organics as a method of incapacitation (as opposed to torture), I doubt their hangups about personal corruption like in the various Star Wars RPG's is the whole story here.

Except that Luke =/= traditional Jedi. The material makes this rather clear.

So, what, did he just teach himself how to strangle people with the force? While that is possible, the sheer speed at which it took effect seems to indicate advanced technique on his part, and thus training by someone more skilled than he. It would be like if you saw a self taught student of kung fu suddenly break out a jointlock on someone's fingers-- most people don't get that good without lots of practice and an instructor showing them the ropes.

Edit: and if we are going to look at Clone Wars as a source, we can see Mace Windu use an even more violent technique on Gen. Grievous' lungs.

[ChosenOne54]

Clone Wars feels so different from the films; it's almost like two separate universes. I mean, we see Mace Windu do things like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk#t=3m11s) WITHOUT a lightsaber in the cartoon, but in the actual films we don't see anything close to that level. I mean, look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3DHDXAz ... re=related

Good swordsmanship, sure, but you don't see any ridiculously powerful, building-shattering force powers used at all, even after Windu get's his hand cut off. They seem to rely very much on their lightsabers.

[Norade]

So, what, did he just teach himself how to strangle people with the force? While that is possible, the sheer speed at which it took effect seems to indicate advanced technique on his part, and thus training by someone more skilled than he. It would be like if you saw a self taught student of kung fu suddenly break out a jointlock on someone's fingers-- most people don't get that good without lots of practice and an instructor showing them the ropes.

Edit: and if we are going to look at Clone Wars as a source, we can see Mace Windu use an even more violent technique on Gen. Grievous' lungs.

Luke was trained, but he did not follow the teachings of the Jedi in regards to what can be done with the force.

[Formless]

Okay, that's getting somewhere. What exactly was the traditional proscription for these techniques, then?

[Norade]

Okay, that's getting somewhere. What exactly was the traditional proscription for these techniques, then?

Well with the info we have we can say that an Old Republic Jedi is less likely to use offensive force based abilities on a belligerent than they are to kill/disable them with a light saber. Luke never grew up with this so he may teach more techniques for disabling a foe with the force even at some risk of harm coming to the person targeted. The old order thought this would lead to the dark side, but as has been shown that's not always true.