Samus Aran vs. Darth Vader

[Panzersharkcat]

As for lightning-type attacks for Jedi, there is electric judgment, which was developed by Plo Koon.

[Metahive]

The only time bounty hunters give force users any problems is when they get the drop on them and push the attack. In this case Vader is more likely to get the drop than Samus as they both enter the room at the same time and he has a chance to get his precog on while she's expecting more metroids or something.

That's not true, Jango did not have the drop on Kenobi and yet Obi Wan was incapable of subduing him. Cad Bane also doesn't have the element of surprise on his side all the time and neither does Hondo the pirate captain, yet the Jedi never quite manage to decisively beat them.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Wasn't Obi-Wan's intent to capture Jango, not kill him? If killing is the whole point just TK the bastard into the side of his ship a few times. A skilled Jedi can toss someone into a wall with a wave of the hand. Yoda dropped two of Palpatine's guards at once like this. Walked in, glanced at them, casually waved his hand, and they slammed into the wall and crumpled.

Fighting Jedi is basically something that requires you to play mind games, too. Grievous killed so many Jedi because his tactics concentrated on intimidation and surprise. Obi-Wan did great against him because he was calm and didn't get surprise-attacked. Against Jango he was far less skilled than he later became, was trying to capture, not kill, and really didn't see Jango being such a handful. When Mace Windu went up against the guy later, how long was it before the fight ended in a decapitation? Skill and surprise make a huge difference.

As to why Vader didn't personally take part in capturing the Tantive IV or Hoth station, he's not completely retarded. Just because he could kill several normal people at once with a thought doesn't mean he's going to personally walk into a firefight and choke some bitches. That's how to get yourself killed.

Samus' only chance is if she immediately goes for extreme force, and how likely is she to decide "I gotta use the biggest guns are my disposal..." when she sees one guy standing there? There's no point in wasting your best toys on something that may just go "pop" from your weakest weapon.

Magic is extremely powerful when you're the only one who has it.



Actually, an important question is why the two are fighting. It could influence who attacks first and how.

[Metahive]

Wasn't Obi-Wan's intent to capture Jango, not kill him? If killing is the whole point just TK the bastard into the side of his ship a few times. A skilled Jedi can toss someone into a wall with a wave of the hand. Yoda dropped two of Palpatine's guards at once like this. Walked in, glanced at them, casually waved his hand, and they slammed into the wall and crumpled.

Actually he was going after Jango to question him when the Bounty Hunter opened fire (or something, the writing of that scene is awful). Obi Wan had nothing on him to subdue the Bounty Hunter so how could he hope to capture him at all?

Also, are you really going to tell me there's no way to use Force TK non-lethally? How about stripping Jango of his weapons and armor with it? If Vader could pull Solo's gun out of his hands, surely Kenobi could do the same.

Fighting Jedi is basically something that requires you to play mind games, too. Grievous killed so many Jedi because his tactics concentrated on intimidation and surprise. Obi-Wan did great against him because he was calm and didn't get surprise-attacked. Against Jango he was far less skilled than he later became, was trying to capture, not kill, and really didn't see Jango being such a handful. When Mace Windu went up against the guy later, how long was it before the fight ended in a decapitation? Skill and surprise make a huge difference.

Again, not true! Grievous and Obi Wan clash a few times before their duel on Utapau without Grievous having a drop on him and the Jedi still struggles. He slams Grievous a few times with Force TK but the cyborg just shrugs it off none the worse for wear. Hell, even when the Jedi have the drop on him (Lair of Grievous, Duel of the Droids) they're still unable to defeat him. Is Grievous so much more durable and capable than Samus?
Watch CG Clone Wars once in a while.

[Shroom Man 777]

If a Jedi can kill with TK, why not capture with TK then? And Jedi have been shown to capture people with less-lethal methods like amputation. Obi-Wan did it hours/days before his fight with Jango, when he lopped that changeling whore's appendage off.

Of course, we can say that this was all because of the Shroud of the Darkside. Thanks to the Shroud of the Darkside, Jango was able to punch Obi-Wan in the face. If it weren't for the Shroud of the Darkside, Obi-Wan would've used his precog to dodge it. Jedi precog is good enough to even dodge the Flash, after all. As long as the Shroud of the Darkside isn't there.

[lance]

Have we seen a jedi use TK on somebody inside a suit of armor?

[Norade]

Wasn't Obi-Wan's intent to capture Jango, not kill him? If killing is the whole point just TK the bastard into the side of his ship a few times. A skilled Jedi can toss someone into a wall with a wave of the hand. Yoda dropped two of Palpatine's guards at once like this. Walked in, glanced at them, casually waved his hand, and they slammed into the wall and crumpled.

Actually he was going after Jango to question him when the Bounty Hunter opened fire (or something, the writing of that scene is awful). Obi Wan had nothing on him to subdue the Bounty Hunter so how could he hope to capture him at all?

Also, are you really going to tell me there's no way to use Force TK non-lethally? How about stripping Jango of his weapons and armor with it? If Vader could pull Solo's gun out of his hands, surely Kenobi could do the same.

Nonlethal TK would be harder to use than lethal TK and Obi Wan was hardly the same strength as Anakin/Vader. The shroud would also have had an effect as it was strong enough to keep even those close to Palpatine from knowing he was a force user

[Steven Snyder]

Have we seen a jedi use TK on somebody inside a suit of armor?

Does a Star Destroyer count as a suit of armor?

[lance]

Have we seen a jedi use TK on somebody inside a suit of armor?

Does a Star Destroyer count as a suit of armor?

Only if their is not a live video feed of the bitch Vader be chokin

[avatarxprime]

As for Sylux, we really don't know much beyond that it uses mostly Fed spec gear and that it hates the Federation. Speculation is that Sylux was betrayed at some point by the Federation, but considering what we know of the last attempt at reverse-engineering the Morph Ball, maybe the Lockjaw wasn't quite as successful as it seems.

That's actually quite an interesting possibility. Perhaps he/sheit is trapped in the armor (they screwed up the "The armor only comes off it Samus wants it to" bit) and it's constantly causing him/her/it pain. He/She/It then goes off to teach the Federation a lesson and in his/her/it's twisted mind, Samus is the root of all the pain and must also be taken down.

Given how it's portrayed in the Super Metroid Nintendo Power comic it seemed more like Samus cooks off her weapons and then somehow channels that energy into her body (the comic)/power suit (the game) in order to patch herself up. In the comic she performs the technique while inside some Chozo healing sphere so it is something that requires Chozo tech to pull off. Considering the Chozo created the Metroids, it probably utilizes technology similar to that used by the Metroids to harvest energy.

Yeah, but in the comic Old Bird only mentions Power Bombs, while in-game the trick consumes 10 each of Missiles, Super Missiles, and Power Bombs in addition to the Power Bomb that sets the whole thing off. The fact that the ammo is depleted sequentially at a constant rate makes me question the idea of cooking off her weapons and absorbing the backlash, since that's generally a much more random, and hence unreliable, process. It would be safer, I think, if her ammo count actually measured how much energy was available for her suit to conjure a particular projectile and the Crystal Flash shunted that energy into the shields.

True, but remember, the Crystal Flash technique is described by Old Bird as anything but safe. Perhaps you need the 1 power bomb to trigger the effect and can then begin dumping additional energy into to light cocoon that surrounds Samus to continue the process. In the comic Samus is only healing her physical body, while in the game she's repairing her armor (which is quite a bit more durable) and would understandably need more energy than 1 power bomb can give her.

Using the number's from TheBlackCat's Metroid Quantification thread from way back when, 1 Super Missile = 1.244 kilotons. The Crystal Flash technique uses 10 Super Missiles, 10 regular Missiles, and 11 Power Bombs and can direct energy to all of Samus' E-tanks so I would assume that the level of energy represented by her total E-tanks is roughly equal (the area covered by the energy cocoon is well below that covered by a power bomb explosion so the energy must be restrained into fueling Samus) to the energy represented by her weapons used. Since 5 missiles = 1 super missiles that's 12 super missiles (~15 kilotons) and 11 power bombs. Since Samus's max shield is 1400 units or ~34 kilotons, then 1 power bomb should be ~1.73 kilotons or ~80 mg of matter with a direct conversion for when she used it to heal her body. I still hold that the technique is likely the predecessor to the technology used in developing the Metroids.

[Formless]

Have we seen a jedi use TK on somebody inside a suit of armor?

Yes: General Grievous' cybernetic body is armored and Mace Windu was indeed able to crush his lungs through it in Clone Wars, giving Grievous the hacking cough he sported in ROTS. In fact, it may have been easier because of the armor-- IIRC, Mace Windu pulled against Grievous' chestplate while pushing against the back armor.

Keep in mind, though, that Mace Windu waited until Grievous' back was turned to board a shuttle and that this was an attack of desperation.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yet somehow, in the movies at least, Jedi never use their TK against shielded droidekas when mere moments ago they were able to TK other battledroids and incapacitate them with ease.

[Formless]

Yet somehow, in the movies at least, Jedi never use their TK against shielded droidekas when mere moments ago they were able to TK other battledroids and incapacitate them with ease.

Quite true: and a good point when considering the fact that Jedi are more likely to use TK against droids even [/i]in[/i] the movies (IIRC). Come to think, most of the times I can remember Jedi attacking droids with the force the targets are basic "roger roger" footsoldier droids inhereted from TPM...

[Metahive]

Actually Windu crushes Grievous's entire chest, not just the lungs.



So no, Force TK can't just bypass armor. Then again Obi Wan could pry Grievous' armor open with his bare hands, so seems to be not made of the sturdiest material.

[Norade]

How does he crushed the entire chest mean that he couldn't have just crushed the lungs?

[Metahive]

What does it matter? Point is Formless' misremembered the scene, Mace attacks Grievous from the front and just crumples his entire chestpiece instead of doing anything delicate and surgical to specifically get at the lungs.

[Stark]

So no, Force TK can't just bypass armor. Then again Obi Wan could pry Grievous' armor open with his bare hands, so seems to be not made of the sturdiest material.

Since Force TK works through spaceships, maybe you should realise that someone not doing something once doesn't mean they can't do it at all. 'Mace attacked Greivous and succeeded' or 'Mace probably should have knocked Grevious out of the ship first' is about all you can get from this example.

Saying Greivous's armour is easy to bend in a thread where people dismiss force-enhanced strength as wank is just a laugh.

[Darth Hoth]

There are some relevant EU quotes for this stuff, of which I feel like posting a couple. Of course, the film/cartoon people will dismiss them as contradictory, but they might still be interesting.

Use of lethal Force attacks:

She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire died away, became a distant roaring.

[ . . . ]

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.

Gethzerion is a Nightsister, a primitive sect of dark side Force-users, and has only their limited knowledge of the Force. Her raw power is above average, however, supposed by characters in the story to be in the same ballpark as Vader. Luke assumes that this is something Vader could have done as well, though unlike Gethzerion, he held back because he wanted him alive. Given crushed windpipes seen elsewhere, this does not sound terribly unreasonable to me, at least.

****

"Ah, and allow me to do you one more favor!" Gethzerion whispered, stepping forward. "By giving you this-" Her eyes opened wide, blazing, and she made a raking motion with her index finger. Beside Han, the general gasped, reached up to hold his temple, then staggered forward a pace. "A simple death!" Gethzerion cackled.

All around Han, a hundred stormtroopers crumpled simultaneously, some of them staggering a step or two, some firing blaster rifles in the air so that Han instinctively ducked. Within three seconds the stormtroopers lay on the ground like drugged birds, unmoving. Han loked up at the carrier, waiting for the gunners in the ship to open fire.

Nothing happened. The ship remained deathly still.

Mass killing of stormtroopers and shuttle crew by telekinesis. Although here, Gethzerion had at least some help from other Nightsisters. And, since someone asked, yes, they were armoured.

****

As for a high-end example of the range of Vader's telekinesis:

The invisible hand Xizor felt at his throat suddenly tightened, as hard and constricting as an iron band. Even Vader's mere image had the power to kill. Xizor's chin was thrust backward, the vision in his eyes filled with trapped blood.

Xizor, together with the Emperor, is in holoconference with Vader in the Imperial Palace on Coruscant when he manages to upset the Dark Lord. Vader's hologram is transmitted from elsewhere:

Xizor turned toward the hologram of the dark-caped figure - an intimidatingly life-sized image, transmitted from the Devastator, Lord Vader's personal flagship.

So, Vader is, at this time, at the very least off-planet. If the Devastator is in fixed low orbit above the Imperial Palace, we are talking at the very least a 100+ kilometres distance. If in higher orbit, or not synchronized, thousands. Given that it is never mentioned where the ship is, one might also take it as implied that Vader is farther away still - even at interstellar distances, perhaps; if he was in orbit around Coruscant, why would he not have joined the meeting in person?

Even the lower limit, however, is quite impressive by any standard.

[Shroom Man 777]

Then again, in ESB Han Solo was able to get off several shots before Vader was able to disarm him. If Vader was so super-Jedi-fast and so super-Jedi-precognitive, he could've totally disarmed Han before Han could shoot first and ruin Vader's favorite pair of gloves. Or maybe Vader was just showing off, who knows. Maybe he pre-cognitively knew that Han's shots were insufficient, and that he would easily disarm Han, and so he let Han shoot first knowing full well that no harm would happen.

But assuming this same thing happens, except it's Samus doing the first shot, and her shots have more gigajoules than Han's blaster, things could turn out quite bad for Vader and he might end up not being such a handy man.

[Formless]

Actually Windu crushes Grievous's entire chest, not just the lungs.

*snip*

So no, Force TK can't just bypass armor. Then again Obi Wan could pry Grievous' armor open with his bare hands, so seems to be not made of the sturdiest material.

No, the only difference between this and what I remember is that Grievous turned around expecting a lightsaber duel and instead got his chest armor chrushed on itself. Notice also the hacking cough, indicating the damage was primarily to his lungs or airways.

[Formless]

Gethzerion is a Nightsister, a primitive sect of dark side Force-users, and has only their limited knowledge of the Force.

Primitive in what sense? That they don't interact much with the greater galaxy? That their culture is "primitive"? Or that their interpretation of the force does not appear similar to the Jedi and Sith traditions?

It doesn't have to be that their understanding of how to use the force is primitive, you know.

Mass killing of stormtroopers and shuttle crew by telekinesis. Although here, Gethzerion had at least some help from other Nightsisters. And, since someone asked, yes, they were armoured.

What makes you think she was using telekinesis? The effects described there don't sound like any telekinetic attack we've seen so far. Remember, there are other ways to attack someone through the force such as electrokinesis. Its entirely possible the nightsisters found a way to make telepathic attacks lethal, for instance, and that scene would look about the same.

As for a high-end example of the range of Vader's telekinesis:

The issue isn't about the magnitude of his abilities for once; the issue is whether or not he can use them in the heat of battle, which is a different challenge entirely.

[Darth Hoth]

Gethzerion is a Nightsister, a primitive sect of dark side Force-users, and has only their limited knowledge of the Force.

Primitive in what sense? That they don't interact much with the greater galaxy? That their culture is "primitive"? Or that their interpretation of the force does not appear similar to the Jedi and Sith traditions?

It doesn't have to be that their understanding of how to use the force is primitive, you know.

A primitive and technologically backwards culture, but also a poor understanding of the Force. They were impressed by Luke, as of the story (roughly 4 years after Endor) and from what I recall he considered them half-baked; they were quite good at some things, less at others, with no overall standards. Their Force tradition (originally Jedi-derived) had basically devolved into mysticism; they thought it was literal magic with animistic spirits and used verbal incantations for some of their larger-scale stuff.

Mass killing of stormtroopers and shuttle crew by telekinesis. Although here, Gethzerion had at least some help from other Nightsisters. And, since someone asked, yes, they were armoured.

What makes you think she was using telekinesis? The effects described there don't sound like any telekinetic attack we've seen so far. Remember, there are other ways to attack someone through the force such as electrokinesis. Its entirely possible the nightsisters found a way to make telepathic attacks lethal, for instance, and that scene would look about the same.

Elsewhere in the story they use telekinesis to do rapid kills, of the kind the first quote unambiguously described. They also use it to break apart individual bones and tissues to torture people. Although they use telepathy quite proficiently, as well, I remember no instance of them actually killing anyone with it.

[Formless]

A primitive and technologically backwards culture, but also a poor understanding of the Force. They were impressed by Luke, as of the story (roughly 4 years after Endor) and from what I recall he considered them half-baked; they were quite good at some things, less at others, with no overall standards. Their Force tradition (originally Jedi-derived) had basically devolved into mysticism; they thought it was literal magic with animistic spirits and used verbal incantations for some of their larger-scale stuff.

So? None of that translates into incompetence at using the force in novel ways. That sounds very much like the bullshit "primitive culture" definition, rather than any kind of objective statement about the quality of their techniques.

Also, I hear Luke is strong in the force? People were impressed with Anakin as well, just based off his sheer naive strength in the force. So that says nothing either.

Elsewhere in the story they use telekinesis to do rapid kills, of the kind the first quote unambiguously described. They also use it to break apart individual bones and tissues to torture people. Although they use telepathy quite proficiently, as well, I remember no instance of them actually killing anyone with it.

See, this is why novels are inferior to visual evidence in this kind of situation. The only thing we have to go on here is the description, which gives very few details to judge what's going on. Why did the stormtroopers start shooting the place up if it was a telekinetic attack? See the problem? You just jump to the conclusion that its analogous to a force crush style technique when it could be a number of things. I did not suggest it was telepathy because I believe it was telepathy, I suggested it was telepathy because it demonstrates the difficulty in interpreting evidence in novels comparative to film. Want another possibility? Okay, what if it were direct life force manipulation like what Palpatine talks to Anakin about at the opera and which Sith lightning apparently weaponizes? Again, telling it apart from a telekinetic attack on the trooper's brains is difficult, because in both cases you have a magic killing spell being used by a literal magician with tons of possible means at her disposal.

[Darth Hoth]

So? None of that translates into incompetence at using the force in novel ways. That sounds very much like the bullshit "primitive culture" definition, rather than any kind of objective statement about the quality of their techniques.

Also, I hear Luke is strong in the force? People were impressed with Anakin as well, just based off his sheer naive strength in the force. So that says nothing either.

It was specifically his techniques that impressed them; he could do stuff that they could not. Their Force knowledge was based on tradition handed down by their elders from the rogue Jedi who originally formed the group, and much of it had become quite garbled over the centuries; the impression I got was that they did little new research on their powers and really did not understand how they worked, even in the pseudo-mystical sense the Jedi do.

See, this is why novels are inferior to visual evidence in this kind of situation. The only thing we have to go on here is the description, which gives very few details to judge what's going on. Why did the stormtroopers start shooting the place up if it was a telekinetic attack? See the problem? You just jump to the conclusion that its analogous to a force crush style technique when it could be a number of things. I did not suggest it was telepathy because I believe it was telepathy, I suggested it was telepathy because it demonstrates the difficulty in interpreting evidence in novels comparative to film. Want another possibility? Okay, what if it were direct life force manipulation like what Palpatine talks to Anakin about at the opera and which Sith lightning apparently weaponizes? Again, telling it apart from a telekinetic attack on the trooper's brains is difficult, because in both cases you have a magic killing spell being used by a literal magician with tons of possible means at her disposal.

While the above is true, I assumed that due to Occam's Razor, the favoured interpretation would be that this was merely another use of an already established attack, rather than an unknown new one, if applied on a somewhat larger scale. But if there are good reasons to suppose otherwise, that conclusion should, of course, be revised.

[Formless]

It was specifically his techniques that impressed them; he could do stuff that they could not. Their Force knowledge was based on tradition handed down by their elders from the rogue Jedi who originally formed the group, and much of it had become quite garbled over the centuries; the impression I got was that they did little new research on their powers and really did not understand how they worked, even in the pseudo-mystical sense the Jedi do.

Which techniques? Just because their tradition was passed down orally doesn't mean it can't have undergone evolution and development in the meantime. Indeed, their collaborative force powers suggest as much. Whereas the Jedi and Sith tend to focus on personal force powers.

While the above is true, I assumed that due to Occam's Razor, the favoured interpretation would be that this was merely another use of an already established attack, rather than an unknown new one, if applied on a somewhat larger scale. But if there are good reasons to suppose otherwise, that conclusion should, of course, be revised.

I would counter by questioning the necessity of coming up with any explanation until we get more information on the Nightsister's abilities. Good data is a concern more fundamental than Occam's Razor.