Magneto Vs. the Emperor

[Eternal_Freedom]

Brought on from watching X-Men: First Class.

Suppose we take Magneto, from just before his grand assault in San Francisco in "The Last Stand" and place him in the Emperor's Throne Room during the events of ROTJ, sometime between te Emperor's arrival and Vader and Luke turning up. (in other words, when Palpy is alone).

This is movie Magneto, the Ian McKellen version, and this is movie Palpatine. What would happen and, should they come to blows, who would prevail?

[Simon_Jester]

Magneto's helmet will likely make him immune to Palpatine's mental influence. Unless Palpatine has really immense personal power, far more than we ever see him use on screen, I think this fight will probably go to Magneto.

[Norade]

Given some of the feats Palpatine has done and the fact that his TK is going to be able to effect anything Magneto's powers can I say this is closer than you're thinking it is. Toss in all the EU stuff from before his rebirth and he has super speed and a few other neat tricks up his sleeve. Also, given the fact that the most powerful telepath in Magneto's home universe needs a machine to scan the Earth and the shroud of the darkside spanned many worlds, as well as being able to mind fuck enough people at once to bury an entire SSD I doubt the helmet would do shit to stop Palpatine's mind fuckery. This isn't to even mention the fact that he could just TK the thing away, it's not even something Magneto can stop as I don't think the helm's magnetic.

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, that helmet was strong enough to stop mindfuckery from a machine that allowed a psychic to telepathically (almost) kill billions of people at once and at will. Cerebro is obviously a DEW, while the Shroud of the Dark Side otherwise did not affect non-Jedi/non-midichlorianoids, so obviously Palpatine's Force powers are NDF chain reactions. Magneto's helmet will be pretty much as impervious to that kind of NDF chain reaction as a packing crate, and will deflect that with ease.

[Connor MacLeod]

How does Magneto's helmet work exactly? That's going to matter to that sort of thing.

Of course, It also depends on how force-based telepathy works. Just because its psychic (or magical) telepathy doesnt mean it applies across the board. I mean there was "telepathy" in Asimov's works too, but the way it was described didn't sound like telepathy in other sources (it really sounded like organic radio)

[Simon_Jester]

Given some of the feats Palpatine has done and the fact that his TK is going to be able to effect anything Magneto's powers can I say this is closer than you're thinking it is. Toss in all the EU stuff...

This is movie Magneto, the Ian McKellen version, and this is movie Palpatine. What would happen and, should they come to blows, who would prevail?

My argument was on the basis of the underlined passage. Palpatine received far more power in the EU than he ever displayed on screen.

Also, given the fact that the most powerful telepath in Magneto's home universe needs a machine to scan the Earth and the shroud of the darkside spanned many worlds, as well as being able to mind fuck enough people at once to bury an entire SSD I doubt the helmet would do shit to stop Palpatine's mind fuckery. This isn't to even mention the fact that he could just TK the thing away, it's not even something Magneto can stop as I don't think the helm's magnetic.

Depending on how it works, a telekinetic pull to the helmet is a distinct possibility. I wouldn't expect Palpatine to be able to brute-force his way through by telepathy; his powers show a wider spread, but he doesn't seem that much more able to enter people's minds and rearrange them than Professor X, who does so as a matter of routine.

Uh, that helmet was strong enough to stop mindfuckery from a machine that allowed a psychic to telepathically (almost) kill billions of people at once and at will. Cerebro is obviously a DEW, while the Shroud of the Dark Side otherwise did not affect non-Jedi/non-midichlorianoids, so obviously Palpatine's Force powers are NDF chain reactions. Magneto's helmet will be pretty much as impervious to that kind of NDF chain reaction as a packing crate, and will deflect that with ease.

[applies antihallucinogens to Shroomy]

So, what you're saying is basically that Cerebro-amplified psychics come close enough to Palpatine's level of power- the ability to rapidly kill billions of people by mental force, and did Palpatine ever exterminate a world that way?

And that since even Cerebro-amplified psi powers can't breach the helmet, it's not unreasonable to assume that it will work on Palpatine?

I think that's fair. Palpatine might be able to counter the helmet in other ways- telekinesis to pull it off, as suggested, or he might simply attack Magneto directly, sabre in hand, and trust to his own Force powers to cancel out Magneto's magnetic powers.

But Magneto's helmet is pitched as giving him nearly absolute resistance to mental attacks- it's not unfair to say that this is an important part of his power set, and one we shouldn't casually write off unless we're sure Palpatine can deliver mental attacks against him much worse than any that he's faced and survived thanks to his helmet.

[Connor MacLeod]

You can pretty much boil down any "Force user vs" accordingly:

- How the dice of precog falls: Does it warn him, does he heed the warning, how deeply into the force are they

- What power level he/she is at at any given point in tme in continuity - it varies

- what sort of enviroment they are put into (open field, city, inside a starship, etc.) That will dictate

- How far away/line of sight issues. More range doesn't neccesarily mean they can strike with impunity (although some sources can give Palpy some HEFTY range with his powers) but it can give them preparation

- What sorts of powers he has or can activate in a given timeframe, esp if precog works in his favor. Another really big, open bag. Some Jedi powers require concentration or even some time to apply, depending on circumstances. Alot of Palpy's higher end feats would be included.

Expect the vast majority of the debate regarding Palpatine to center on some argument over one of those things or several at once.

[NecronLord]

Toss in all the EU stuff from before his rebirth

Assuming you mean after his rebirth, it's not applicable. Dark Empire Palpatine outright declared that his powers had grown considerably since RotJ; his feats cannot be used in 'vs' involving Regular Palpatine.

[Norade]

Toss in all the EU stuff from before his rebirth

Assuming you mean after his rebirth, it's not applicable. Dark Empire Palpatine outright declared that his powers had grown considerably since RotJ; his feats cannot be used in 'vs' involving Regular Palpatine.

Hence the 'before' his rebirth bit. Though the OP said movie which does limit him somewhat even if at least a few of his EU feats are at least in the same vein as his movie feats.

[NecronLord]

Hence the 'before' his rebirth bit. Though the OP said movie which does limit him somewhat even if at least a few of his EU feats are at least in the same vein as his movie feats.

I'm not aware of any significant EU battles he fought prior to Dark Empire. Certainly the only time I've ever heard about him having super-speed was in the clone's battle with Luke.

[Norade]

Hence the 'before' his rebirth bit. Though the OP said movie which does limit him somewhat even if at least a few of his EU feats are at least in the same vein as his movie feats.

I'm not aware of any significant EU battles he fought prior to Dark Empire. Certainly the only time I've ever heard about him having super-speed was in the clone's battle with Luke.

I know burying the Lusanyka was an EU feat that involved major mind fuckery that happened pre-ROTJ. I think either the book about his master, or one of Vaders books has him super speed fighting though I could be wrong.

It appears that the Lusanyka thing has been retconned though.

[Shroom Man 777]

Was burying Lusankya entire due to Palpatine constipating and tricking people? Was there zero involvement of other Imperial intelligence agencies to obscure or hide the excavation from common people through guise like renovating Coruscant's sewage system that reaches to the planet's mantle? For all we know, assuming Coruscant has populations of quintiminillions of people, all Palpatine did was do some hypnotic suggestion, a simple mind trick, to convince people that the Lusankya wasn't there since Star Wars people might be used to seeing neutronium septic tanks many kilometers in length.

"Oh, that's just a triangular shaped septic tank, not the Super Star Destroyers we are looking for, lol."

If you want more bullshit, let's calculate how heavy the Golden Gate Bridge is, assuming that it is a spherical mass of iron.

Now, assume that those Senate chamber pods are also spherical masses of iron, and compute through frame by frame analysis how fast Yoda was throwing these pods at.

Magneto was able to move the Golden Gate Bridge through... magnetokinesis.

Palpatine was unable to deflect one of Yoda's thrown Senate pods, because his TK was insufficient.

So, with these quantificatorificating feats for all to see, who has superior piggajoules of real ultimate power?

Let's assume this versus is not a fight to the death, but an Olympiad wherein Magneto represents the mutites and Palpatine represents the midichlorianoids of the SW universe. Mutant gene, versus midichlorians.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Hence the 'before' his rebirth bit. Though the OP said movie which does limit him somewhat even if at least a few of his EU feats are at least in the same vein as his movie feats.

I'm not aware of any significant EU battles he fought prior to Dark Empire. Certainly the only time I've ever heard about him having super-speed was in the clone's battle with Luke.

I know burying the Lusanyka was an EU feat that involved major mind fuckery that happened pre-ROTJ. I think either the book about his master, or one of Vaders books has him super speed fighting though I could be wrong.

It appears that the Lusanyka thing has been retconned though.

Or, and I will go slow here;

they landed it inside a bigger cargo ship.

or

welded giant box around it

or

used the Corruscant air traffic control system to close a 20km area of airspace for "training exercises" then flew the ship in at night with lights out.

or

There were simply no rebel spies in the area and the media just didn't come report on it.

[Darth Hoth]

How does Magneto's helmet work exactly? That's going to matter to that sort of thing.

Of course, It also depends on how force-based telepathy works. Just because its psychic (or magical) telepathy doesnt mean it applies across the board. I mean there was "telepathy" in Asimov's works too, but the way it was described didn't sound like telepathy in other sources (it really sounded like organic radio)

To elaborate on this, is there anything said in the films about how Xavier's telepathy works? In the comics (old ones, at least, the kind I collect) it is described as electromagnetic, and part of why Magneto can resist it like he does is because of his control of that domain. Shields devised agains that would not necessarily be effective against the Force. In fact, they most probably should not be.

Then again, Palpatine from the films never did any very impressive telepathy, anyway, so I suspect the point is a moot one.

Since the OP excluded the EU, I place my bet on Magneto in this one.

[Shroom Man 777]

There's also an order of magnitude from "make countless people for get incident XYZ happened", which Professor X also performed repeatedly in X2, and "killing an entire planet full of people with your brain". Admittedly, for such broad effects, Professor X needs Cerebro while who knows if Palpatine can affect so many people unaided, but the point is Magneto's hat allows him to withstand psychic woo-woos on that level.

But telepathy is different from telekinesis, and Palpatine might just yank the damn hat off Magneto's head. Or otherwise snap his neck.

Or Magneto can hurl a Senate chamber pod, or some other huge ass object, at Palpatine.

It would be more awesome if Magneto was able to bring the Golden Gate Bridge with him... and throw it at Palpatine.

Speaking of which, why the fuck did Magneto levitate the bridge, land on Alcatraz... and then send his mutite hordes to fight in badly choreographed fight scenes with the X-Men? Couldn't he have just lifted a huge piece of the bridge and throw it at the island, crushing the X-Men and the Cure Kid and saving himself all that trouble?

[Sarevok]

Remember how Yoda casually knocked out two Guards with wave of his hands ? Palaptine's telekinesis is stronger than even Yoda. And movie Magneto has can not block telekinetic attacks against his body. He has absolutely no defense against being snapped in half or Force crushed like a soda can. The Emperor can at least try to block metal thrown at him. He will also be aware where Magneto is all times and combined with precognition will already be in position to attack even before Magneto sees him.

Considering one hit is all that takes to kill Magneto I say the Emperor takes this one. Magneto is essentially a glass cannon. He can go toe to toe with any Jedi or Sith Lord if set loose in a room full of metal he can use. But he has no defense at all versus Force powers that corrospond to his rather amazing offensive capabilities.

[Shroom Man 777]

Since when has Palpatine shown stronger telekinesis than Yoda? And he IS in a room full of metal.

I think he did get affected by TK in X3, when Famke Jassen was melting everyone in that living room.

[Lord of the Abyss]

But telepathy is different from telekinesis, and Palpatine might just yank the damn hat off Magneto's head.

He can probably hold it on with his magnetism.

[Enigma]

How well can Magneto handle Force Lightning?

[Alyrium Denryle]

How well can Magneto handle Force Lightning?

Well, it behaves like discharge from a tesla coil, so, I imagine pretty well. If it is in fact just electricity, then Magneto should be able to either shrug it off or redirect it fairly easily.

Palaptine's telekinesis is stronger than even Yoda.

No. Yoda is just old. At no point did Palpatine demonstrate stronger TK. Palpatine's strategy was to keep yoda moving. Think of it like a sword fight where your opponent is more skilled, but you are younger and more vigorous (yes, I know Palpy was like... 60, but compared to 900... well...). The strategy you use is to exhaust them. Keep moving, make them expend energy just reaching you, and that is what palpy did. Palpatine seized the initiative and kept it, hurling poorly directed platforms at yoda, so yoda could never respond, and exhausting yoda in the process.

And movie Magneto has can not block telekinetic attacks against his body. He has absolutely no defense against being snapped in half or Force crushed like a soda can.

Sure he does. The best defense is a good offense, and Magneto can certainly put up a healthy offense, by say, casually folding the floor of the chamber around palpatine's squishy body. If he can get a first strike, which given Palpatine's penchant for gloating and otherwise violating the overlord rules, he very well might, he can keep palpatine on defense and wear him down. Hell, if palpatine even tries to use his lightsaber... the hilt is metal. That would end very badly for him.

[Darksider]

How well can Magneto handle Force Lightning?

Well, it behaves like discharge from a tesla coil, so, I imagine pretty well. If it is in fact just electricity, then Magneto should be able to either shrug it off or redirect it fairly easily.

[

It's always been stated that Sith Lightning is more than just electricity. It's some also some sort of force based attack that drains or otherwise weakens the "life force" of the target. whether Magneto could deflect it like mere electricity is unclear

[Shroom Man 777]

Magneto can just flick the lightsaber on while its inside Palpatine's pants.

[Alyrium Denryle]

How well can Magneto handle Force Lightning?

Well, it behaves like discharge from a tesla coil, so, I imagine pretty well. If it is in fact just electricity, then Magneto should be able to either shrug it off or redirect it fairly easily.

[

It's always been stated that Sith Lightning is more than just electricity. It's some also some sort of force based attack that drains or otherwise weakens the "life force" of the target. whether Magneto could deflect it like mere electricity is unclear

Do you have a reference?

That said, at the end of the day, nothing you can do with your body beats pure thought. Palpatine actually has to do things like raise one or both hands, channel the force etc. That takes time, time he wont have when Magneto can turn the floor into a spiked pitfall trap underneath him, and close it around him with no more effort than it takes to imagine it happening. How do we know he can do this? Because he manages to use minute amounts of metal to form a moving footpath by which he walked across a chasm, with about as much effort as a stroll through the park. That is a fairly complicated action.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, where the hell can the human body generate so many piggawatts of supposed electricity? Unless midichlorians are like, organic hypermatter and radiate waste heat through neutrino radiators.

Anyway, imagine, when Magneto activates Palpatine's lightsaber.

"I, Magneto, Master of Magnetism... crawl to me, homo sapiens!

"My balls!" said Lieutenant Emperor Palpatine.

[Sarevok]

Well even in the movies it is clear that Force lighting is not electricity as we know it. It travels straight instead of arcing.


Sith lightning seems to be some sort of magic with life force destroying components. It destroyed Palpatine's visage when his lighting was turned back onto him. Against Luke Skywalker it caused strange long term problems with the bones in his body.