Magneto Vs. the Emperor

[Norade]

Well if real lightning was a spherical mass of medicholrians it would!

[Alyrium Denryle]

Except that there is real life evidence for there being a medical condition related to that sort of death. You can't just willfully ignore that because it doesn't suit you. So either she died of a condition that should have been treatable with their level of medical technology or she died of mystic force juju.

Or she died from a reverse placebo effect combined with giving birth. Should have been able to treat, perhaps, but they can hardly have a 100 percent success rate. You can still die from massive trauma and internal bleeding during a pregnancy, and myriad other underlying conditions, which given her emotionally weakened state, she would have been more at risk for.

Just be sure to call me when he can suck you off a planet with a wormhole and then we can talk. He's got nothing on DE Palpatine who could, among other things, toss him into a blackhole from lightyears away.

He can create wormholes, use telepathy, teleport, astral project, and crush planets into near singularities. Also, Dark Empire Palpatine is categorically not movie palpatine, because movie palpatine is dead, tossed into the death star's central core. I might be willing to buy your unbroken causal chain argument to admit EU material from before Endor, but in this case, the clone is literally not the same person.

You have no proof for that, not to mention the many other sources defeat your claim. I'd be willing to bet that a novelization states him to be human and seeing as those are the movies in book form you can't dodge that.

It is still better than using sources which are excluded in this debate. I am actually following the rules.

Less acceptable than using the answers that we know to be true?

Yes, because those things are excluded.

Sorry, novelizations count at the very least and your claim is far more extrodinary than mine. Yours involves a long winded series of logical conclusions, mine involves looking at established canon. Thus by occams razor I win by default.

No, they dont. Movie version. The novelizations are not the movie script, and we are not dealing with canon rules here, but rather other specified ones. You are incapable of separating your evidence bases.

Also, if you think that the books are internally consistent, you are delusional. They most certainly are not

[Norade]

Except that there is real life evidence for there being a medical condition related to that sort of death. You can't just willfully ignore that because it doesn't suit you. So either she died of a condition that should have been treatable with their level of medical technology or she died of mystic force juju.

Or she died from a reverse placebo effect combined with giving birth. Should have been able to treat, perhaps, but they can hardly have a 100 percent success rate. You can still die from massive trauma and internal bleeding during a pregnancy, and myriad other underlying conditions, which given her emotionally weakened state, she would have been more at risk for.

Given that they had no blood bag, that there was no medical attention being given that clearly wasn't what happened. If she had complications she would have been in surgery. If it was blood lose due to internal bleeding she would have been pale. If it was stress should would have had an elevated heart rate. No of this happened. She up and died for reasons that a society thousands of years ahead of ours had no answers to.

Just be sure to call me when he can suck you off a planet with a wormhole and then we can talk. He's got nothing on DE Palpatine who could, among other things, toss him into a blackhole from lightyears away.

He can create wormholes, use telepathy, teleport, astral project, and crush planets into near singularities. Also, Dark Empire Palpatine is categorically not movie palpatine, because movie palpatine is dead, tossed into the death star's central core. I might be willing to buy your unbroken causal chain argument to admit EU material from before Endor, but in this case, the clone is literally not the same person.

I never said that DE Palpatine was a continuation from the movies. I said that the Palpatine we see in RotJ would benefit from all EU material set in the universes past in a way Magneto couldn't. Also, that list isn't that impressive for Mags, unless he somehow knew where Palpatine was he wouldn't be teleporting to him and he certainly doesn't have the technology or forces that Palpatine does.

You have no proof for that, not to mention the many other sources defeat your claim. I'd be willing to bet that a novelization states him to be human and seeing as those are the movies in book form you can't dodge that.

It is still better than using sources which are excluded in this debate. I am actually following the rules.

Where does the OP say not EU at all? He says movie which one character has books that are in the same timeline and universe as the movie and the other doesn't.

Sorry, novelizations count at the very least and your claim is far more extrodinary than mine. Yours involves a long winded series of logical conclusions, mine involves looking at established canon. Thus by occams razor I win by default.

No, they dont. Movie version. The novelizations are not the movie script, and we are not dealing with canon rules here, but rather other specified ones. You are incapable of separating your evidence bases.

Also, if you think that the books are internally consistent, you are delusional. They most certainly are not

Boo fucking hoo. The OP never specifically excluded shit.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Given that they had no blood bag, that there was no medical attention being given that clearly wasn't what happened. If she had complications she would have been in surgery. If it was blood lose due to internal bleeding she would have been pale. If it was stress should would have had an elevated heart rate. No of this happened. She up and died for reasons that a society thousands of years ahead of ours had no answers to.

Or they simply did not show us the autopsy. Look, if you are going to ignore the doctor's statement of "she has lost the will to live" and Obi Wan not correcting them with "No, she is being drained by the force" or somesuch, there is absolutely nothing that will sway you, and that is not a good thing.

I never said that DE Palpatine was a continuation from the movies. I said that the Palpatine we see in RotJ would benefit from all EU material set in the universes past in a way Magneto couldn't. Also, that list isn't that impressive for Mags, unless he somehow knew where Palpatine was he wouldn't be teleporting to him and he certainly doesn't have the technology or forces that Palpatine does.

No, he would not, because the EU material that REALLY effects the outcome was not ever performed by him. His capabilities are still restricted to what we see on camera, and can infer from those capabilities, otherwise he is not movie version palpatine.

Also, someone needs to learn how to read again:

Suppose we take Magneto, from just before his grand assault in San Francisco in "The Last Stand" and place him in the Emperor's Throne Room during the events of ROTJ, sometime between te Emperor's arrival and Vader and Luke turning up. (in other words, when Palpy is alone).

They are in the throne room. Palpatine pulling tricks with black holes is going to be somewhat counter-productive, nor will he be able to use superweapons, and his being alone is specified. Not that imperial troops will be able to do much.

Where does the OP say not EU at all? He says movie which one character has books that are in the same timeline and universe as the movie and the other doesn't.

Because if that restriction is not there, the restriction itself has no meaning.

[Norade]

Given that they had no blood bag, that there was no medical attention being given that clearly wasn't what happened. If she had complications she would have been in surgery. If it was blood lose due to internal bleeding she would have been pale. If it was stress should would have had an elevated heart rate. No of this happened. She up and died for reasons that a society thousands of years ahead of ours had no answers to.

Or they simply did not show us the autopsy. Look, if you are going to ignore the doctor's statement of "she has lost the will to live" and Obi Wan not correcting them with "No, she is being drained by the force" or somesuch, there is absolutely nothing that will sway you, and that is not a good thing.

Why would Obiwan say shit all. hell it's unlikely he knows that much about the way Dark Side powers work and Yoda wasn't about to launch into a speech about something he couldn't stop anyway. With the jedi healers dead or scattered they wouldn't have been able to do anything either way. Also, once again see the EU which confirms that I'm right.

I never said that DE Palpatine was a continuation from the movies. I said that the Palpatine we see in RotJ would benefit from all EU material set in the universes past in a way Magneto couldn't. Also, that list isn't that impressive for Mags, unless he somehow knew where Palpatine was he wouldn't be teleporting to him and he certainly doesn't have the technology or forces that Palpatine does.

No, he would not, because the EU material that REALLY effects the outcome was not ever performed by him. His capabilities are still restricted to what we see on camera, and can infer from those capabilities, otherwise he is not movie version palpatine.

"and this is movie Palpatine." Note the lack of this is movie Palpatine and we shouldn't bother looking at what the EU says about force effects that we see him use on screen...

Where does the OP say not EU at all? He says movie which one character has books that are in the same timeline and universe as the movie and the other doesn't.

Because if that restriction is not there, the restriction itself has no meaning.

Not really, it gives us a setting and frame of reference for both characters. One just has more shit behind him in the incarnation we're choosing.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Also, once again see the EU which confirms that I'm right.

reference?

Assuming I accept your proposition, is this something which always happens with force choke, something that can happen if the user chooses, or was it an unintended consequence?

"and this is movie Palpatine." Note the lack of this is movie Palpatine and we shouldn't bother looking at what the EU says about force effects that we see him use on screen...

Well then, I would be willing to accept this proposition provided that is as far as you will take it (only force effects seen on screen, used by him or capable of being reasonably inferred from other on screen powers).

In this case, we may have entered MAD territory, it will depend on the fine details.

[Shroom Man 777]

Everyone who gets force choked dies, or at least most of them do. At least, in the movies. Maybe Padme just had delayed action dying.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Everyone who gets force choked dies, or at least most of them do. At least, in the movies. Maybe Padme just had delayed action dying.

A New Hope. Admiral whatshisface did not die.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yes he did.

When the Death Star exploded.

[Metahive]

I object to that. Just like Windu, Secura and the other two billion Jedi that survived the Jedi genocide, Motti's just hiding, biding his time, waiting for the moment to spring out of the dark and subject the universe to his awesome powers of non-ancient religioness.

So much for the snark.

"and this is movie Palpatine." Note the lack of this is movie Palpatine and we shouldn't bother looking at what the EU says about force effects that we see him use on screen...

I'd say this means he only gets to use the powers he demonstrated on-screen. Otherwise why stress this point with either him or Magneto? Comics Magneto is almost as wanked-out as DE Palpatine is BTW, so going beyond the movies wouldn't necessarily be a one-sided advantage for Palpy.

[Norade]

Also, once again see the EU which confirms that I'm right.

reference?

Assuming I accept your proposition, is this something which always happens with force choke, something that can happen if the user chooses, or was it an unintended consequence?

It would seem that I'm actually off on force choke. It's not one of the powers that has been specifically noted as causing a withering of life force. That isn't to say that there aren't abilities that have this effect. Force lightning is draining to both the user and the person it is used on having lingering effects that aren't solely consistent with being electrocuted.

"and this is movie Palpatine." Note the lack of this is movie Palpatine and we shouldn't bother looking at what the EU says about force effects that we see him use on screen...

Well then, I would be willing to accept this proposition provided that is as far as you will take it (only force effects seen on screen, used by him or capable of being reasonably inferred from other on screen powers).

In this case, we may have entered MAD territory, it will depend on the fine details.

Given that there isn't much focusing exclusively on Palpatine the canon statements that he was stronger than the force adepts he trained should serve as a starting point.

[AMT]

Except we are going by the movies where no such thing is hinted at. Going by the movies it looks exactly as stated above, an electrical discharge

That was not electrical damage to Palpatine's face. Since when have we seen electrical damage from Force Lightning? And again, if it is normal electricity, then how could the human body emit such amounts of electricity? Again, are midichlorians some kind of organic hypermatter energy source that can generate gratuitous amounts of electricity while radiating waste heat through neutrinos?

His face was melting from electrical burns. And obviously Jedi have to have some ability to manipulate ambient energy or generate such energy themselves, else almost any physical manifestation they do is impossible. See: Super-Speed, Force leaps, etc. I believe it's called the Dark Side, for Palpatine.

Presumably the energy source is the Dark Side of the Force, not his body.

So you admit that Force Lightning is created by strange woo-woo Force energy that behaves totally not like electricity? This strange woo-woo Force energy is also capable of telekinetically manipulating objects, dissipating energy, perceiving the future, and shits. So Jedi/Sith draw from this strange energy that lets them shoot mind bullets, absorb blaster shots, see the fucking future, but apparently when it comes to blasting sparkly zappy bits, people somehow think that this is not strange woo-woo shit but mundane electricities. What.

It's totally obvious that it's not electricity.

Umm, that's a reach. Just because it comes from the Dark Side doesn't mean it's not electricity. Electricity is generated lots of ways. Nuclear power, Coal, etc. The generation method =/= the type of energy created.

So no, no one is admitted Force Lightning as shown in the movies is anything EXCEPT electricity.

[Shroom Man 777]

His face was melting from electrical burns.

Electrical burns don't work that way!

[AMT]

His face was melting from electrical burns.

Electrical burns don't work that way!

Oh no. Shock and Awe that George Lucas doesn't put realistic burn makeup on a family friendly movie.
Either way, the rest of the points stand.

[Formless]

His face was melting from electrical burns.

Electrical burns don't work that way!

Oh no. Shock and Awe that George Lucas doesn't put realistic burn makeup on a family friendly movie.
Either way, the rest of the points stand.

No it doesn't, and that is not how we argue when we suspend disbelief. Even the Dark Knight had more realistic "burns", i.e. they at least looked like burns if implausible ones. Anakin's injuries at the end of ROTS looked like burns. Palpatine's injuries are not burns. Don't act like a trektard.

[AMT]

Whatever. The actual point here (that Force Lightning somehow drains life) is still moot, since there's no evidence to the contrary.

I still say Magneto just cracks the tower and goes on his merry way.

[Formless]

Except the fact that Palpatine's injuries (actually, all cases of force lightning are ambiguous due to the fact the victims don't appear to suffer muscle fatigue afterwards) are not consistent with getting shocked by electricity. Hell, as far as I know there isn't any known mechanism that makes someone's face seem to age thirty years in thirty seconds. Which leaves... oh, right, magic.

I say Magneto does that and Palpatine gets into an escape pod while the Death Star security does their thing... what?

[AMT]

Except the fact that Palpatine's injuries (actually, all cases of force lightning are ambiguous due to the fact the victims don't appear to suffer muscle fatigue afterwards) are not consistent with getting shocked by electricity. Hell, as far as I know there isn't any known mechanism that makes someone's face seem to age thirty years in thirty seconds. Which leaves... oh, right, magic.

I say Magneto does that and Palpatine gets into an escape pod while the Death Star security does their thing... what?

Except again, whether or not Force Lightning is electricity or magic electricity doesn't matter. The movies still have 0 evidence pointing to life draining. All it shows is that Force Lightning hurts and injures, and can scar.

And I don't see Palps making it to the escape pod if Magneto just vents stuff into space. Last time I checked the Force doesn't give you immunity to explosive decompression

[Alyrium Denryle]

Except the fact that Palpatine's injuries (actually, all cases of force lightning are ambiguous due to the fact the victims don't appear to suffer muscle fatigue afterwards) are not consistent with getting shocked by electricity. Hell, as far as I know there isn't any known mechanism that makes someone's face seem to age thirty years in thirty seconds. Which leaves... oh, right, magic.

I say Magneto does that and Palpatine gets into an escape pod while the Death Star security does their thing... what?

Except again, whether or not Force Lightning is electricity or magic electricity doesn't matter. The movies still have 0 evidence pointing to life draining. All it shows is that Force Lightning hurts and injures, and can scar.

And I don't see Palps making it to the escape pod if Magneto just vents stuff into space. Last time I checked the Force doesn't give you immunity to explosive decompression

Indeed. Even if the lightning drains the life of the target while in use, we see no evidence of it continuing to do so after discharge has stopped.

And what exactly is death star security going to do? Die horribly as Magneto casually rapes them with tentacles made out of deck plating?

[Norade]

Except the fact that Palpatine's injuries (actually, all cases of force lightning are ambiguous due to the fact the victims don't appear to suffer muscle fatigue afterwards) are not consistent with getting shocked by electricity. Hell, as far as I know there isn't any known mechanism that makes someone's face seem to age thirty years in thirty seconds. Which leaves... oh, right, magic.

I say Magneto does that and Palpatine gets into an escape pod while the Death Star security does their thing... what?

Except again, whether or not Force Lightning is electricity or magic electricity doesn't matter. The movies still have 0 evidence pointing to life draining. All it shows is that Force Lightning hurts and injures, and can scar.

And I don't see Palps making it to the escape pod if Magneto just vents stuff into space. Last time I checked the Force doesn't give you immunity to explosive decompression

Indeed. Even if the lightning drains the life of the target while in use, we see no evidence of it continuing to do so after discharge has stopped.

And what exactly is death star security going to do? Die horribly as Magneto casually rapes them with tentacles made out of deck plating?

Vent the air from the room and then point and laugh. You guys still haven't proved he can even control the metals used in Star Wars construction. I mean movie version, he never manipulates any non magnetic metals.

[AMT]

Vent the air from the room and then point and laugh. You guys still haven't proved he can even control the metals used in Star Wars construction. I mean movie version, he never manipulates any non magnetic metals.

The plastic prison points to an ability to do so. Otherwise why spend all the cash and effort for a purely plastic prison, weapons, even a damn wheelchair, if non magnetic metal can do the same? Stainless Steel, for example.

As for venting the atmosphere, all that does is kill Palpatine. Again, we're in the RotJ throneroom. Where's he going to go?

[Ahriman238]

Except the fact that Palpatine's injuries (actually, all cases of force lightning are ambiguous due to the fact the victims don't appear to suffer muscle fatigue afterwards) are not consistent with getting shocked by electricity. Hell, as far as I know there isn't any known mechanism that makes someone's face seem to age thirty years in thirty seconds. Which leaves... oh, right, magic.

Actually, when he was zapping Luke in RotJ, that seemed fairly consistent with electrocution, in that he was on the floor convulsing and screaming, and he didn't eactly leap up to his feet after it stopped. IIRC he more-or-less crawled to Vader's side afterwards.

[Formless]

Actually, when he was zapping Luke in RotJ, that seemed fairly consistent with electrocution, in that he was on the floor convulsing and screaming, and he didn't eactly leap up to his feet after it stopped. IIRC he more-or-less crawled to Vader's side afterwards.

He did get the longest single exposure, so that might have something to do with it. You would be a little shaky too if you had just been tortured.

If you want to know what I would say if this thread allowed EU sources, I would argue that there is probably an electrical component and a Dark Side life-draining woo component. The electrokinesis itself seems to be neutral; there is a Jedi named Plo Kloon who came up with a similar ability called "electric judgement" that appeared to be a pretty simple force based tazer, only with orange lightning bolts (because he could, I guess. Maybe he didn't want to be mistaken for a Sith when using it). Likewise, Luke eventually came up with his own variation which shot out green lightning bolts powered by the light side which had telepathic effects on the target's morale.

But this thread doesn't seem to allow EU sources, so take that with whatever salt your diet requires.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Vent the air from the room and then point and laugh. You guys still haven't proved he can even control the metals used in Star Wars construction. I mean movie version, he never manipulates any non magnetic metals.

The fact that he can manipulate an exotic 'unobtainium' style metal material really does have to be assumed, or you end up with "palpatine vs a very angry polish jew, who momentarily will become a sad polish jew"(movie Magneto is polish, even though his name is German). There is kinda no point to the question if you do that and how exactly are we supposed to prove that he can deal with SW construction when in no circumstance ever, no matter how many alternative universes you put him in--he will never encounter it, unless there is an X-Men/Star Wars comic crossover.

Insisting that need be proven just makes you a tool.

That said, oh no, they vent the atmosphere! They will have to vent the entire station, because one of the first things I would do is open holes in the wall to other areas of the ship.

So we are back to durasteel tentacle porn.

[Shroom Man 777]

His face was melting from electrical burns.

Electrical burns don't work that way!

Oh no. Shock and Awe that George Lucas doesn't put realistic burn makeup on a family friendly movie.
Either way, the rest of the points stand.

Since it does not exhibit the properties of a spherical mass of Palpatine being subjected to thermal and direct energy weapon damage, we must thus assume that the visual display we saw was caused by NDF chain reactions. Visual evidence trumps dialogue and novelizations. Or does that only apply to shitty 70s-era asteroid vaporization SFX?

If Magneto's helmet is as durable as a Federation packing crate, then I guess he'll be able to withstand that kind of trigger guard-less non-DEW weapon just fine.

If Magneto can't manipulate SW metals, then Palpatine can't manipulate Marvel Movie-verse humans by virtue of them being Forceless like Yuzhan Vong. If we're into that kind of semantic bullshit.