Samus Aran vs. Darth Vader

[Ahriman238]

Surely the droidekas set-up time, between rolling out, "unfolding", and then arming their weapons and firing would be more than enough for Jedi/Sith superspeed to react quickly to.

But yes, this has less to do with "lol shields no TK" and more with Force users simply distracted by complicated battlefield factors that make them unable to counter everything.

You'd think so. I recall in one of the EU books Luke and Mara come up against a MK II droideka (now able to shoot while rolling and shield before unfolding!) and Mara asks how the Old Republic Jedi dealt with the things. "Generally, running away." They are able to defeat it by throwing it against a wall with TK. The shield generator keeps ramping up power to disintegrate the "attacking" wall until it overloads and leaves the droid vulnerable. That strikes me as a fairly serious design flaw, besides raising issues of just how autonomus the droidekas are and how much control they have over their own components.

[Norade]

Obi Wan contacted Luke through two lairs of shields in the Trench run. Vader can sense Luke through the shuttle's shields in RotJ. The Shroud worked through shields in the prequels.

[Havok]

Pulling a shielded ISD out of the sky doesn't involve damaging anything past the shield (except where it hits the ground) - it's latching onto the entire shielded entity and pulling it.

Talk about Bull. Shit. You have proof that a Jedi can latch onto and TK shields but not what is underneath? And if he CAN do that as you have completely pulled out of your ass, then you better concede that a shielded Samus can do fuck all against Vader, since I'm guessing pulling a shielded, fully powered Star Destroyer down out of it's flight path against it's will, engines and repulsors as well, is going to make throwing Samus, by her shield into orbit, a trivial fucking affair.

They run away from the Droidekas because they fire at them continuously, are actually accurate and their shields keep them fro redirecting the blaster fire back. The continuous fire is also able to keep Jedi off balance enough that TK, which is something established as requiring a little more than a basic though and some degree of concentration, isn't always an option.

And Samus is somehow a less formidable opponent than a group of Droidekas?

You mean outside of a Droideka being made out of dura steel and being bronzium armored and you know, not flesh?

As for Vader himself, he is the absolute max as far as Jedi/Sith go. We know that Palpatine himself knows that Anakin/Vader will be more powerful than he and Yoda, so basically it is safe to assume that any feat we see either of them perform in the PT, Vader will, 20 years later, be fully capable of accomplishing.

Bull. Shit.
Vader is a cindered, limbless husk in a life-support suit. If he had access to everything seen in the PT, then why the fuck didn't he bust out those moves against Luke? Oh, I'm sure he let Mark Hamill cut his hand off - it was all part of his master plan, don'tchaknow.

Oh right, that had nothing to do with Luke being far more powerful than Vader. I forgot. Or the fact that Vader CLEARLY was having issues with attempting to kill his own child. It's like they even try to convey that message in the movie.
You can bitch and complain all you want, but outside of Luke, who wasn't trained in any advanced Force abilities, Anakin is the cream of the Jedi/Sith crop. And sorry, but your Bull. Shit. opinion doesn't hold water to the opinion of Palpatine, kinda an expert on the subject, who knows for a fact that Vader's limitations (at the time directly after ROTS) are all in his mind and have nothing to do with his physical condition.

Also citing examples of Vader vs Luke is complete folly. Every confrontation between the pair, all two of them, is either Vader playing with Luke to manipulate him (TESB) or Vader not being able to use his strongest weapon; his anger. (ROTJ)

As for energy shields, there is exactly one scene in the movies where Jedi come up against an energy shielded opponent and as I pointed out, the steady barrage of fire is what keeps the Jedi from being able to TK the droids. The shield itself keeps the Jedi from redirecting the blaster fire back, clearly their preferred way of doing things, and possibly using lightsabers against it.

There are also the scenes in Phantom Menace (Liam Neeson and Maul) and RotS (Grievous' trap) where Jedi completely fail to disable force fields that are impeding their progress.

Not being able to walk through an energy shield is proof that the Force isn't going to work through it? Please.

Also per your examples: A. Obi-Wan and Anakin wanted to be caught on the Invisible Hand and taken before Grievous. B. Maul was capable of fending off any TK Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon attempted, so there was no point in trying. Hence the whole meditating.

[ChosenOne54]

You mean outside of a Droideka being made out of dura steel and being bronzium armored and you know, not flesh?

I'm sorry, can a droideka tank half a dozen kiloton level missiles? Can it spam kiloton missiles like a machine gun? Can it walk through lava like it's air?

Unless I'm misinterpretting you, but it almost sounds like you are suggesting a droideka is a superior opponent to Samus.

[Shroom Man 777]

Obi Wan contacted Luke through two lairs of shields in the Trench run. Vader can sense Luke through the shuttle's shields in RotJ. The Shroud worked through shields in the prequels.

Obi Wan was also pretty dead, you know. His being a dead ghost is a poor example, since he's no longer corporeal.

You mean outside of a Droideka being made out of dura steel and being bronzium armored and you know, not flesh?

Standard battle droids are also made out of the same stuff, too.

[Vympel]

Not having seen TCW, I can't judge - but did Obi-Wan just shove the shielded droids around, or did he actually damage them through the shield? Again, I've never stated that a Jedi can't force-push a shielded object - just that force TK doesn't seem to be able to hit something through the shield. Samus' shields should protect her from Force TK attacks the same as they do from any other source of damage.

The droidekas are deployed ready to fire and his force push reverts them back to "wheel" mode and he uses them as ersatz wrecking balls. So he's clearly affecting their body through the shield.

[Havok]

Depends on the strength of Star Wars weapons and the actual shields.

Droids work on Mustafar that are continually exposed to lava. Their shields allow them to be actually dipped in lava as we actually see on screen, not in a video game, in Revenge of the Sith. Those are probably industrial grade shields which are less powerful than military grade shielding in Star Wars.

Star Wars starfighter turbo laser are in the multi-kiloton level IIRC and all they do is break apart shielded droiekas as we actually see on screen, not in a video game, in The Phantom Menace.
That indicates that the shields themselves are immensely powerful and at the very least absorb most of that fire and that the droids themselves are extremely durable without their shields.

That said, no, Droidekas are not a more formidable for than Samus, but they do give an idea as to what a Jedi/Sith such as Anakin will have faced over the almost 40 years of constant training and combat as a Jedi and Sith Jedi hunter.

[Vympel]

Star Wars starfighter turbo laser are in the multi-kiloton level IIRC and all they do is break apart shielded droiekas as we actually see on screen, not in a video game, in The Phantom Menace.
That indicates that the shields themselves are immensely powerful and at the very least absorb most of that fire and that the droids themselves are extremely durable without their shields.

Those same blasts didn't damage the walls of the hangar the fighter was in, though. Its obvious that's not the mightiest display of firepower of which a fighter is capable (if it was, then Obi-Wan's fighter in AotC - which withstood dozens of asteroid-cracking shots easily and only copped a few scorch marks on its hull when it lost its shields - would've been the most heavily protected fighter in the galaxy) so I'd say the N1's lasers were probably on their lowest useful setting - possibly the default setting on takeoff, for safety reasons (or through R2's intervention).

[avatarxprime]

True, but remember, the Crystal Flash technique is described by Old Bird as anything but safe. Perhaps you need the 1 power bomb to trigger the effect and can then begin dumping additional energy into to light cocoon that surrounds Samus to continue the process. In the comic Samus is only healing her physical body, while in the game she's repairing her armor (which is quite a bit more durable) and would understandably need more energy than 1 power bomb can give her.

If she's actually repairing her armor with the Crystal Flash rather than merely recharging her shields, wouldn't that also be matter conversion?

Sure, but we don't really have any frame of reference for what the Crystal Flash will do to armor. We know that it will help heal Samus' body, and we know in game that it causes the E-tanks to fill up. I'm wagering the "heal Samus" is based on Metroid technology while the use on the armor is simply recharging the shield, but I admit we have no definitive answer.

As for energy shields, there is exactly one scene in the movies where Jedi come up against an energy shielded opponent and as I pointed out, the steady barrage of fire is what keeps the Jedi from being able to TK the droids. The shield itself keeps the Jedi from redirecting the blaster fire back, clearly their preferred way of doing things, and possibly using lightsabers against it.

Well, that still makes Samus rather hard to TK, as she can easily keep up a steady barrage of fire. And Vader can't block it all with his saber, what with it being a wall bigger than his saber.

Stop it, just stop it. The second the Wave Beam is added to any weapon it does the wave thing, meaning the individual blasts that make up the beam go cover an area as tall as Samus and then condense down to something significantly smaller (about the size of Samus' arm in the armor) and then back again. Vader doesn't need to block a 6 ft wide beam, he can either get out of the way, or position himself so that he's blocking the beam when its condensed. See here, the combined beam from the end of Zero Mission:

Can you give an example of Samus' gun-arm being damaged when the rest of her suit is still in fine working order, without being energy-depleted? Manga would be fine for this, too. Is there anything that suggests that Vader would be able to TK-crush her gun-arm without first getting rid of her shielding?

Samus gets her suit damaged while the shield is still fully intact. She has yet to to get hit at all before this moment so it should be assumed as operating at full power, or at least the full power she would have with only the Varia suit equipped. Spoiler

Droids work on Mustafar that are continually exposed to lava. Their shields allow them to be actually dipped in lava as we actually see on screen, not in a video game, in Revenge of the Sith. Those are probably industrial grade shields which are less powerful than military grade shielding in Star Wars.

According to Wookieepedia, the "shields were powered by a starship-class fusion generator," so a droideka has some serious power operating behind that shield.


And last but not least, Yoda using Force Push on armored clone troopers in a combat situation. The Push in question occurs during the far shot, you'll see a clone trooper fly backwards and smack into what looks like another 2 troopers and they all stay down.

[Metahive]

According to Wookieepedia, the "shields were powered by a starship-class fusion generator," so a droideka has some serious power operating behind that shield.

A see, but Anakin's N1 one-shot shielded Droidekas while, as Vympel brought up above, not damaging the interior of the hangar much so I have to express serious doubts about that.

[Darth Tedious]

According to Wookieepedia, the "shields were powered by a starship-class fusion generator," so a droideka has some serious power operating behind that shield.

A see, but Anakin's N1 one-shot shielded Droidekas while, as Vympel brought up above, not damaging the interior of the hangar much so I have to express serious doubts about that.

What's the interior of the hanger made of? If it's built to withstand pilot fuckups, it might be pretty damn tough...

[Darth Hoth]

According to Wookieepedia, the "shields were powered by a starship-class fusion generator," so a droideka has some serious power operating behind that shield.

A see, but Anakin's N1 one-shot shielded Droidekas while, as Vympel brought up above, not damaging the interior of the hangar much so I have to express serious doubts about that.

What's the interior of the hanger made of? If it's built to withstand pilot fuckups, it might be pretty damn tough...

Unlikely, given how there were also people close by who suffered no ill effect. Unless we are talking some kind of magic energy containment field (which are supposed to exist in some parts of the EU, but sound quite unconvincing even so).

Of course, this objection looks absolutely hilarious a couple of posts below people who base their multi-megaton Samus firepower estimates on gameplay mechanics and handwave the fact that the environments are for the most part nondestructible in-game, thus suffering no collateral damage.

Then again, if somewhat irrelevant for the point contested here, heavily reinforced armories and hangars have some precedent in the EU. The Mandalorian Armor establishes that Kuat Drive Yards used bomb detonators that could supposedly take out half a Mos Eisley-sized city to design and test shipboard armory durability.

[Darth Tedious]

...Kuat Drive Yards used bomb detonators that could supposedly take out half a Mos Eisley-sized city to design and test shipboard armory durability.

And that's just the detonator! You should see the bomb!

*high five*

[keen320]

Stop it, just stop it. The second the Wave Beam is added to any weapon it does the wave thing, meaning the individual blasts that make up the beam go cover an area as tall as Samus and then condense down to something significantly smaller (about the size of Samus' arm in the armor) and then back again. Vader doesn't need to block a 6 ft wide beam, he can either get out of the way, or position himself so that he's blocking the beam when its condensed. See here, the combined beam from the end of Zero Mission:

Didn't remember that. Might have been thinking of fusion, where it doesn't.
Image seems to get a bit weird rather fast. Basically it works like the spazer beam does.
Of course [in zero mission], the beam expands again later, so I guess it could depend on how far away Vader is (game-play wise, I think it still has the same effect at all distances). She could probably solve the problem by running toward him as she fires.

[Havok]

And I'm sure Vader is just going to stand there.

[Darth Yoshi]

Sure, but we don't really have any frame of reference for what the Crystal Flash will do to armor. We know that it will help heal Samus' body, and we know in game that it causes the E-tanks to fill up. I'm wagering the "heal Samus" is based on Metroid technology while the use on the armor is simply recharging the shield, but I admit we have no definitive answer.

Actually, now that I think about it, even the healing would imply matter conversion, especially in a scenario like the comic. Saying that life energy can heal you is all well and good, but if you've got a hole in you like Samus did, healing means filling that hole somehow. Obviously the easiest way to do that would be to kick cell division into overdrive, but that would just give you a smaller amount of tissue than you started with, since you now have more cells (ergo more cell wall) and only a limited amount of material to make those cells with. That extra nutrients needed to fill in the missing mass have to come from somewhere, and if the only input is energy, well.

EDIT: I suppose you could argue that the nutrients are in the fluid she's floating in, but considering that the Power Bomb destroys the equipment, I question how much of the fluid could have survived to contribute.

BTW, the hatchling recharged Samus' shields as well, so citing Metroid metabolism isn't all that useful.

*snip image*
Image seems to get a bit weird rather fast. Basically it works like the spazer beam does.
Of course [in zero mission], the beam expands again later, so I guess it could depend on how far away Vader is (game-play wise, I think it still has the same effect at all distances). She could probably solve the problem by running toward him as she fires.

Look again. The beam does undulate, although granted the components don't ever merge the way they do in Zero Mission. But that's frankly irrelevant, due to simple geometry. Either the Wave Beam is like it is in Prime, where the beams are equidistant from each other, or the beams are stacked. In the former, there's nothing stopping Vader from sidestepping some of the beams to focus on others, and in the latter, Vader wouldn't even need to bother with more than sidestepping.

[keen320]

Debating with only 2D games as a frame of reference is weird. +

I mean, for all we know those beams are paper thin when viewed from above.

[Shroom Man 777]

Those helix beams seem to originate equally from Samus' gun hand as it does from her forehead and from her shin. Vader not only has to crush her gun-arm, but also her gun-face and her gun-foot. This will be difficult!

[avatarxprime]

Obi Wan contacted Luke through two lairs of shields in the Trench run. Vader can sense Luke through the shuttle's shields in RotJ. The Shroud worked through shields in the prequels.

Obi Wan was also pretty dead, you know. His being a dead ghost is a poor example, since he's no longer corporeal.

Fine, Luke contacts Leia through the shields and armor of the Millenium Falcon along with an unknown amount of atmospheric space when he calls out to her from the Cloud City antenna in TESB.

Sure, but we don't really have any frame of reference for what the Crystal Flash will do to armor. We know that it will help heal Samus' body, and we know in game that it causes the E-tanks to fill up. I'm wagering the "heal Samus" is based on Metroid technology while the use on the armor is simply recharging the shield, but I admit we have no definitive answer.

Actually, now that I think about it, even the healing would imply matter conversion, especially in a scenario like the comic. Saying that life energy can heal you is all well and good, but if you've got a hole in you like Samus did, healing means filling that hole somehow. Obviously the easiest way to do that would be to kick cell division into overdrive, but that would just give you a smaller amount of tissue than you started with, since you now have more cells (ergo more cell wall) and only a limited amount of material to make those cells with. That extra nutrients needed to fill in the missing mass have to come from somewhere, and if the only input is energy, well.

EDIT: I suppose you could argue that the nutrients are in the fluid she's floating in, but considering that the Power Bomb destroys the equipment, I question how much of the fluid could have survived to contribute.

You could also say her body used whatever reserves it already had in it to facilitate the healing process. Samus might be lean and muscular but everyone keeps reserve nutrients in their body provided they maintain a healthy diet. Or, during the course of her treatment by Old Bird before she used the Crystal Flash she could have been given the nutrients she'd need to sustain the rapid cell regeneration she'd be undergoing upon using the Crystal Flash. There are a ton of options here.

BTW, the hatchling recharged Samus' shields as well, so citing Metroid metabolism isn't all that useful.

That was an energy transfer, the massive amount of energy the Baby had absorbed (I mean seriously, look at the size of the thing) got transferred into Samus. Then when it gets killed the last of its energy in the form or its own gelatinous matter ends up being absorbed by Samus' suit, just like it absorbs the energy left over from defeated enemies. Of course the issue then comes up as to how does a metroid gain mass if its only absorbing "life energy" from the target but I try not to think about metroids. Beside, even though it's stated that they don't steal bodily fluids or anything like that, this can't be right given that targets drained by the Baby crumbled when touched, obviously the Baby had desiccated them through its feeding implying some degree of absorption of nutrients.

[rant]Samus's power suit honestly makes no sense. It's word of God, and also shown in the ending sequences of Zero-Super, and Other M hits you over the head with the fact that, Samus can essentially "dispel" her armor and then magically summon it again. Even if that was matter to energy conversion I'd ask why does she all of a sudden get lighter? Matter and energy are interchangeable and a sufficient quantity of energy will still cause a warping of space to induce gravity just like the equivalent matter. Samus shouldn't get lighter (provided I'm interpreting the rules of accurately) if the mass equivalent energy of her suit is still being stored within her Zero Suit when she makes it fade away. I hate that this is established canon. [/rant]

*snip image*
Image seems to get a bit weird rather fast. Basically it works like the spazer beam does.
Of course [in zero mission], the beam expands again later, so I guess it could depend on how far away Vader is (game-play wise, I think it still has the same effect at all distances). She could probably solve the problem by running toward him as she fires.

Look again. The beam does undulate, although granted the components don't ever merge the way they do in Zero Mission. But that's frankly irrelevant, due to simple geometry. Either the Wave Beam is like it is in Prime, where the beams are equidistant from each other, or the beams are stacked. In the former, there's nothing stopping Vader from sidestepping some of the beams to focus on others, and in the latter, Vader wouldn't even need to bother with more than sidestepping.

Well that's where moving around would help. If Samus moves around so that the different beams end up filling in each other's gaps then Vader's only option is to dodge. She can certainly fire her weapons fast enough to fill a volume of space with fire in that manner.

Also, I did a bit of testing in Zero Mission. The Red Space Pirates at the end of the game in Chozodia require 2 missiles to kill, while 1 non-charged shot of the arm cannon will kill them. So, the arm cannon at the end of Zero Mission needs to be putting out at least 2 missiles worth of energy (~0.50 kilotons) and likely some more than that considering the blast will penetrate one Pirate and continue on to others.

[Shroom Man 777]

Fine, Luke contacts Leia through the shields and armor of the Millenium Falcon along with an unknown amount of atmospheric space when he calls out to her from the Cloud City antenna in TESB.

They're both receptive Force sensitives, though, and just because Force communication can go through XYZ distances and go through ABC objects, doesn't mean Force attacks can have that same range or penetration. Cellphones can communicate through walls and shit with their signals, yet microwave ovens can't penetrate tinfoil, even though both use microwave radiation to communicate and/or cook. Luke was being a cellphone when he was calling Leia. Whereas Darth Vader is being a microwave oven when using Force powers to choke whoever.

[Havok]

Wait... says who and why? Why is directing the Force to choke someone different than directing the Force to make someone hear your mind? It is not a direct straight line signal that can just be interrupted. Vader choking Ozzel through walls and a maze of corridors and numerous electronic signals and devises shows that.

[Shroom Man 777]

There's a significant difference from Force choking this guy in a general area, and sending messages or something to another planet light years away, to communicating from the dead.

[Havok]

And yet, Jedi get feelings and visions from lightyears away constantly. Communicating from the dead is different as one can argue that a Force ghost IS the Force.

The Force is an energy field that penetrates everything in the galaxy. It responds to the will of Force sensitives. You arguments make it seem like you think it emanates from the user.

Look at it like this. The Force is already around Samus's neck. Vader just has to tell that bit of Force to "choke". There isn't a beam of Force that comes from his hand as he makes his little choking pinch.

[Shroom Man 777]

Be that as it may, Force users have also shown time and time again that a variety of things can get in the way of their issuing commands to the omnipresent Force and the omnipresent Force's acting on that.

[Havok]

Yes every Force user has different levels of abilities. Some require more concentration than others. However, we are talking about Darth Vader, pretty much the most pissed off guy in the galaxy as well as the most powerful Force user outside of Luke. And as we have seen, very focused and determined when it comes to killing his opponents.

There is nothing that Samus possesses that has shown that it is going to break Vader's concentration on killing her.

Just to point this out too... Has anyone taken into consideration Vader's armor? It is capable of deflecting lightsaber blows with little to no injury had and (depending on how you view it) possibly stopping blaster bolts.