Magneto Vs. the Emperor

[Darth Hoth]

It's obvious though, that in the context of the garbage compactor scene, the metallic paleosteel Star Warsium alloys of the door was sealed by a magnetic lock.

Is it necessarily? The magnetic-whatever caused a blaster bolt to ricochet violently. That behaviour has not been observed with regard to other metallic (or possibly transition-metallic) targets in the films, although shields have been known to cause broadly similar weird effects. To me, that points towards some kind of force-field.

I mean, shit, the other side could easily say that since Magneto isn't from the SW universe, he would be immune to Force shit like a Yuzan Vong, and so all those powers won't work on him or whatever, and make for really shit debating reeking of contrived one-sided nonsense just to win.

Force powers do work on Yuuzhan Vong, though. Or, rather, at least actively offensive ones do. They cannot, however, be detected or perceived by Force means.

*SNIP deranged rant*

We assume that superpowers are consistent between universes. Magneto has all his usual powers. The question is whether the environment contains objects he can easily manipulate.

While you do appear to have some sort point, at least speaking for meta-game thinking, I cannot see why we must assume that Star Wars materials necessarily share the magnetic properties of present-day steel alloys. Nor do I automatically assume that they are non-magnetic. We simply cannot know, at least not from the evidence thus far presented.

I would add that even if durasteel is sufficiently magnetic for Magneto to manipulate it, that does not mean he can necessarily do so as well as he could with iron or steel. Just its greater durability might mean that he would need to expend more energy to obtain comparable effects, for example, in breaking or bending fixed structures.

Note also that I initially voted for Magneto, and I see little need to change that vote. Going purely by the film showings of either of them, he needs no steel tentacles or ripped-off towers or whatever wanktastic scenarios people are dreaming up to beat Palpatine. He can just take off his ugly movie helmet (which is magnetic), accelerate it to transonic speed and throw it in Palpatine's face, if he is so inclined. His magico-magnetic film TK is still that much stronger than film Palpatine's TK, and nothing else really matters much if either of them use their powers at all competently.

EU Palpatine, of course, would curbstomp him in turn. But that would be another question than the one the OP asked.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, Comic Magneto would slap him with an Infinity Gauntlet and challenge him to a game of Rubik Cosmic Cubes or whatever stupid lame shit Marvel comics comes up with. Fucking comic books.

I am sure blasters have ricocheted in other occasions. Why would anyone force field a septic tank, anyway?

I just think that what people are proposing, that the entire Throne Room of the Death Star or whatever area is totally devoid of actual-factual metals or other materials for Magneto to use, is extremely bloody lame.

That's like pitting Obi-Wan and a Hobo With A Shotgun, and putting them in an arena totally devoid of the Force, so the Jedi can't use any of his powers on anything, and so he gets filled with buckshot. That's fucking lame. They're just making contrived scenarios and suppositions just to make sure their lame fat side wins.

In that case, change the battlefield into, I dunno, the scrap yards of the Junkyard Wars series on Discover Channel, and let's see Palpatine pincushioned by all sorts of nuts and bolts and lugnuts and carburettors and radiators and hub caps and screws and nails and pliers and pins and scissors. Can they contrive any other nonsense then?

It's just bloody annoying. I wish Magneto and Palpatine fought inside a Federation starship, and Magneto crushes Palpatine's face with some of those packing crates. Maybe Federation phasers don't have trigger guards, because Magneto magnetized them all off and threw them at Palpatine's face. Then his face deformed, entirely in a way unlike blunt force trauma, and people can suggest it was a mutant life-draining packing crate at high speeds that mutated his face in strange unnatural ways or something-something blah-magic.

Balls.

[Darth Hoth]

Well, Comic Magneto would slap him with an Infinity Gauntlet and challenge him to a game of Rubik Cosmic Cubes or whatever stupid lame shit Marvel comics comes up with. Fucking comic books.

Comic Magneto might not need the heftier Marvel wank to beat him. Going by his own powers (without amplifiers), he can use his clairvoyance and TK to view and affect objects on the other side of the Earth, and this while talking to people. (X-Men VS Avengers) He also has mind control, psi-resistance, hypnotism, super-speed and all manners of assorted weird shit.

EU Palpatine is still more powerful, at least as of Dark Empire. But still, in my estimation, that match-up might well be more of a "fair fight" than this scenario.

I am sure blasters have ricocheted in other occasions. Why would anyone force field a septic tank, anyway?

Well, can you name other instances? And Star Wars design is just insane much of the time. I mean, look at basically the entire Separatist military in the prequels. Assuming that the engineers were actually designing military hardware, rather than toys, who in his right mind would build such a load of utterly atrocious designs? Hell, you yourself like ranting on and on about the stupidity of the AT-AT.

A force-shielded septic tank vent is far less insane than some of their other shit. Such a touch is merely quixotic, and might actually serve some useful purpose. Say, if the trash regularly includes corrosive materials of some kind or another, using a force-field repeller against that might actually make sense if it is not inordinately power- or maintenance-heavy.

I just think that what people are proposing, that the entire Throne Room of the Death Star or whatever area is totally devoid of actual-factual metals or other materials for Magneto to use, is extremely bloody lame.

It can also depend on whether film Magneto's powers can affect magnetically inert metals* (as the comics guy's can). If so, I would be rather more inclined to believe that he could bend durasteel. (It is, after all, supposed to be metal-related somehow.) But as far as I can tell, we have no evidence of that as yet.



*Or transition metals . . .

[Shroom Man 777]

Comic Magneto might not need the heftier Marvel wank to beat him. Going by his own powers (without amplifiers), he can use his clairvoyance and TK to view and affect objects on the other side of the Earth, and this while talking to people. (X-Men VS Avengers) He also has mind control, psi-resistance, hypnotism, super-speed and all manners of assorted weird shit.

God, that's pure bullshit.

Well, can you name other instances?

TPM, with the grass thing?

It can also depend on whether film Magneto's powers can affect magnetically inert metals* (as the comics guy's can). If so, I would be rather more inclined to believe that he could bend durasteel. (It is, after all, supposed to be metal-related somehow.) But as far as I can tell, we have no evidence of that as yet.

*Or transition metals . . .

If all they needed was magnetically inert metals to neuter Mag's power, then why did they waste their time building a totally flimsy glass and plastic prison?

And, again, putting him in a place where his powers are totally useless is pretty damn lame. Palpatine versus powerless helpless Polish Holocaust Survivor Geezer ftw!

[Lord of the Abyss]

I am sure blasters have ricocheted in other occasions. Why would anyone force field a septic tank, anyway?

Well, can you name other instances? And Star Wars design is just insane much of the time. I mean, look at basically the entire Separatist military in the prequels. Assuming that the engineers were actually designing military hardware, rather than toys, who in his right mind would build such a load of utterly atrocious designs? Hell, you yourself like ranting on and on about the stupidity of the AT-AT.

A force-shielded septic tank vent is far less insane than some of their other shit. Such a touch is merely quixotic, and might actually serve some useful purpose. Say, if the trash regularly includes corrosive materials of some kind or another, using a force-field repeller against that might actually make sense if it is not inordinately power- or maintenance-heavy.

Or, say, if your garbage disposals occasionally are inhabited by man eating monsters - which as we see in the film, they are. Someone needs to lecture the Stormtroopers about flushing their unwanted pets down the toilet, perhaps...

[Darth Hoth]

God, that's pure bullshit.

No, it's deep, profound, relevant, socially aware commentary on human society, out-groups and the nature of power and how it corrupts. Because mutants are really a stand-in for persecuted blacks/muslims/homosexuals/creationists/whatever!

TPM, with the grass thing?

And there we had a shield that caused that weirdness, if I recall correctly?

And, again, putting him in a place where his powers are totally useless is pretty damn lame. Palpatine versus powerless helpless Polish Holocaust Survivor Geezer ftw!

Actually, in a way it can become more interesting. While people may of course cry, "Unfair!" it does make for another kind of scenario than would otherwise be typical. In this case, it forces Magneto to do things a little differently than he otherwise would; but, if he can think fast enough on his feet, he stands a good chance of winning anyway.

There is a huge difference between taking away your powers and merely forcing you to use them more intelligently than usual. More than Jedi without Force, it would be Jedi without lightsabre. Which tilts the odds, but does not make a Jedi victory against [insert-here] impossible by any means.

Or if we go on the contrary (as we might assume, and I did in one of my scenarios), what chance does Palpatine stand if Magneto can go all Genoshan on him and drop a mountain of durasteel on his head? That is hardly less boring and one-sided.

You do have a point, but neither is it as black and white as you paint it.

[AMT]

The plastic prison points to an ability to do so. Otherwise why spend all the cash and effort for a purely plastic prison, weapons, even a damn wheelchair, if non magnetic metal can do the same? Stainless Steel, for example.

Maybe they were just playing it safe? They might not have complete data on all his abilities and their precise limits. And once you manage to lock someone like that up, you would want to make sure he stays locked up, even if it costs a little extra effort. Scrimping on security when dealing with supervillains generally tends to backfire in the comics.

It's possible. I'll semi concede that one since we don't know the true intent there.

[Connor MacLeod]

"Magnetic fields" in SW also keep the air pressure in hangars exposed to hard vacuum. Does this mean that Magneto can also manipulate SW air? The term is merely another technobabble for "force field" and similar magitech.

And you are an expert on how sw forcefield technology works? if not, then stop making assumptions.

[Darth Hoth]

"Magnetic fields" in SW also keep the air pressure in hangars exposed to hard vacuum. Does this mean that Magneto can also manipulate SW air? The term is merely another technobabble for "force field" and similar magitech.

And you are an expert on how sw forcefield technology works? if not, then stop making assumptions.

Its properties are not those of what we mean when we say "magnetic field." That would seem to indicate that their "magnetic fields" are not actually magnetic fields. Which was the point of contention. Or am I mistaken about something?

More precisely how the force-fields work is left up in the air, as with other magitech like artificial gravity.

[Connor MacLeod]

Its properties are not those of what we mean when we say "magnetic field." That would seem to indicate that their "magnetic fields" are not actually magnetic fields. Which was the point of contention. Or am I mistaken about something?

More precisely how the force-fields work is left up in the air, as with other magitech like artificial gravity.

My point is that you are basically claiming to have enough understanding of how the "magnetic fields" work that you can dictate whether or not the term is applicable.

For that matter, what sort of "magnetic" fields are we talking about? Magnetism covers a pretty broad area, and could refer to any number of phenomena.

[Darth Hoth]

My point is that you are basically claiming to have enough understanding of how the "magnetic fields" work that you can dictate whether or not the term is applicable.

For that matter, what sort of "magnetic" fields are we talking about? Magnetism covers a pretty broad area, and could refer to any number of phenomena.

As far as I am aware, there exists in real life no magnetic field that will keep large volumes of ordinary air from venting into vacuum while not noticeably affecting humans or metal objects. Therefore, when such an effect in SW that does this is called a "magnetic field," I assume that it is not really one, or at least not what we would call one. To me, with my assuredly limited knowledge of physics, the properties appear inconsistent with real-life magnetic fields. Do you take issue with this?

As noted, I have no idea how the force-fields actually do work.

[Connor MacLeod]

My point is that you are basically claiming to have enough understanding of how the "magnetic fields" work that you can dictate whether or not the term is applicable.

For that matter, what sort of "magnetic" fields are we talking about? Magnetism covers a pretty broad area, and could refer to any number of phenomena.

As far as I am aware, there exists in real life no magnetic field that will keep large volumes of ordinary air from venting into vacuum while not noticeably affecting humans or metal objects. Therefore, when such an effect in SW that does this is called a "magnetic field," I assume that it is not really one, or at least not what we would call one. To me, with my assuredly limited knowledge of physics, the properties appear inconsistent with real-life magnetic fields. Do you take issue with this?

Yes I do, because you're basing your entire argument on the name, which is patently silly. For one thing I again ask: what sort of magnetic field are you thinking of being involved here? You are aware that there are different kinds of magnetism, aren't you? How is it involved in confining the atmosphere? What are the capabilities and defining charateristics of the technology as observed?

For reference, there are real life devices involving 'magnetic fields' that confine an atmosphere and separate it from a vaccuum. They're called plasma windows. For all we know those devices could be similar.

Do I really need to spell this out further for you?

[Alyrium Denryle]

It can also depend on whether film Magneto's powers can affect magnetically inert metals* (as the comics guy's can). If so, I would be rather more inclined to believe that he could bend durasteel. (It is, after all, supposed to be metal-related somehow.) But as far as I can tell, we have no evidence of that as yet.

*Or transition metals . . .

Transition metals ARE the metals we use for every day activities. I am getting really sick of people who have not taken basic chemistry thinking they know more about this than me... Here is the list, dumbfuck


Scandium
Titanium
Vanadium
Chromium
Manganese
Iron
Cobalt
Nickel
Copper
Zinc
Yttrium
Zirconium
Niobium
Molybdenum
Technetium
Ruthenium
Rhodium
Palladium
Silver

Cadmium
Hafnium
Tantalum
Tungsten
Rhenium
Osmium
Iridium
Platinum
Gold
Mercury
Rutherfordium
Dubnium
Seaborgium
Bohrium
Hassium
Meitnerium
Ununnilium
Unununium
Ununbium

See anything familiar?

God damn it, now I have to actually re-watch the movies --shudder-- because I am pretty sure that train was made of Al, which is not on the transition metal list.

As for your question about corrosion, yes. It was something other than iron oxide. But oxidation is oxidation. Strictly speaking there are non-transition metals that will oxidize (you know because any combustion is an oxidation), but that would be a bit different from the oxidation we are discussing, and those oxides are not generally useful as building materials(with exceptions, Aluminium for example, which is why I need to rewatch the films).

Its properties are not those of what we mean when we say "magnetic field." That would seem to indicate that their "magnetic fields" are not actually magnetic fields. Which was the point of contention. Or am I mistaken about something?

Once you start saying that "well, they call this force magnetism, but it is nothing at all like our magnetism" you have jumped the shark. Particularly when you know absolutely nothing about physics.

[Connor MacLeod]

Its properties are not those of what we mean when we say "magnetic field." That would seem to indicate that their "magnetic fields" are not actually magnetic fields. Which was the point of contention. Or am I mistaken about something?

Once you start saying that "well, they call this force magnetism, but it is nothing at all like our magnetism" you have jumped the shark. Particularly when you know absolutely nothing about physics.

Actually, for all intents and purposes it becomes telekinesis, or enough like it to be indistinguishable, in which case it becomes a matter of raw power vs raw power and speed vs speed. EG who can bring more strength to bear.

One other thing to note is that Palpatine is rather cunning, and was well known to use various methods and techniques for augmenting his capabilities. Forming synergistic force bondings with multiple people (which Palpy is known to have done, although only in a manner that leaves him ultimately in control of the power involved), through tapping the life force/latent force potential of large numbers of people (much like Raynar Thul did through the Kiliks in the Dark Nest novels), or the use of Force Nexus (one of which existed on Coruscant, in point of fact.) or various other means. It was one of the key tenents of Palpy's supposed Apotheosis, as i recall in fact.

[Connor MacLeod]

To add: turnabout is fair play. If we're going to describe Magneto's "magnetism control" as being different from RL magnetism, we could alterantely just dictate Magneto is outside the Force (much in the way the Vong were) and therefore highly resistant to most direct Force attacks.

[Alyrium Denryle]

To add: turnabout is fair play. If we're going to describe Magneto's "magnetism control" as being different from RL magnetism, we could alterantely just dictate Magneto is outside the Force (much in the way the Vong were) and therefore highly resistant to most direct Force attacks.

Which I have already done.

[Connor MacLeod]

Which I have already done.

Well, thre ya go. it becomes a matter more of the enviroment and who can best attack indirectly.

Actually that's pretty interesting. Set up a arena with nothing but large, metal objects in it, and only so they can attack each other by throwing shit back and forth.

[Darth Hoth]

Yes I do, because you're basing your entire argument on the name, which is patently silly. For one thing I again ask: what sort of magnetic field are you thinking of being involved here? You are aware that there are different kinds of magnetism, aren't you? How is it involved in confining the atmosphere? What are the capabilities and defining charateristics of the technology as observed?

For reference, there are real life devices involving 'magnetic fields' that confine an atmosphere and separate it from a vaccuum. They're called plasma windows. For all we know those devices could be similar.

Essentially, what we see, and/or have described is an invisible energy field (or "screen") that keeps the starship's atmosphere in, though the hangar doors are wide open. There are, as best I can tell, no magnetic effects associated with it besides any that might be involved in the mechanism by which it accomplishes this; none are shown or described that I know of.

Concerning a plasma window it is the plasma itself that is the active component keeping the air in, which is in turn contained by a magnetic field. So calling a device based on such principles a "magnetic field" alone would be stretching things, no? Further, should that plasma not be quite visible and emitting considerable light? But we see no such effect where the SW "magnetic fields" are concerned.

Do I really need to spell this out further for you?

Perhaps this makes me look stupid or uninformed, but please do. I would be interested in hearing what kind of magnetic field you think fits the observations. I personally know of none, hence I tend to believe it to be technobabble. But if I am wrong and you know better, I can learn something new from it, which is always nice.

[Connor MacLeod]

Essentially, what we see, and/or have described is an invisible energy field (or "screen") that keeps the starship's atmosphere in, though the hangar doors are wide open. There are, as best I can tell, no magnetic effects associated with it besides any that might be involved in the mechanism by which it accomplishes this; none are shown or described that I know of.

You're assuming that just because they call it a "magnetic field' that it only involves some sort of magnetic phenomena. Stop reading too much into the name alone.

Concerning a plasma window it is the plasma itself that is the active component keeping the air in, which is in turn contained by a magnetic field. So calling a device based on such principles a "magnetic field" alone would be stretching things, no? Further, should that plasma not be quite visible and emitting considerable light? But we see no such effect where the SW "magnetic fields" are concerned.

Yes, which is why i said "devices similar to a plasma window" rather than "exactly like a plasma window." We know that sw forcefields can be both opaque and transparent (anakin's N-1 shields in TPM, for example.)

Perhaps this makes me look stupid or uninformed, but please do. I would be interested in hearing what kind of magnetic field you think fits the observations. I personally know of none, hence I tend to believe it to be technobabble. But if I am wrong and you know better, I can learn something new from it, which is always nice.

you're assuming because they use "magnetic field" for a specific purpose (or they call the device 'magnetic field') that is somehow a precise scientific or technical description of how the device functions. Which is bloody silly, especially in a universe that has slow moving glowing bolts fired from "laser/turbolaser cannons" or "blaster rifles".

Tl;dr: stop being overly literal about it.

[Havok]

The Force probably is electro-magnetism. OOOOoooo think about that. Magneto is just a Jedi.

No. You cannot equivocate the metaphysics like that.

I was actually just kidding... but, sure I can, and I just did.

The Force is a energy field than binds and penetrates everything. The Jedi access it through midichlorians and other different methods as some Jedi/Force sensitives do not have blood.
Magneto is a 'mutant' with an X-gene that allows him to access an "energy field" that binds and penetrates everything.

Magneto creates visible force fields that glow blue. Palpataine creates visible lightning that glows blue.

Magneto can control his energy field to move objects with even the barest traces of metal. Palpatine can control his energy field to move any objects.

Palpatine has psionic abilities. Magneto has psionic abilities.

If Palpatine encountered Magneto, he would think he was a powerful Force sensitive with mental blocks.
If Magneto encountered Palpatine he would think he was a powerful mutant with psionics, and control over electricity.

Force sensitives being able to tap into the electro-magnetic forces in the universe is the exact same thing as a mutant being able to do it, but with 40,000 years more training and experience behind it.

It actually makes perfect sense and puts them on a level playing field where you can actually compare the two without having to have nerd rage arguments about different types of metal and what stormtroopers mean when they say they are lowering the magnetic field.

[Norade]

@ Alyrium Denryle

Had you mentioned the magnetic boots to start that would have saved us both time.

[Alyrium Denryle]

@ Alyrium Denryle

Had you mentioned the magnetic boots to start that would have saved us both time.

I mentioned them several posts ago, and at that time, had only recently remembered them.

I was actually just kidding... but, sure I can, and I just did.

That is why the fallacy is false equivocation.

The Force is a energy field than binds and penetrates everything. The Jedi access it through midichlorians and other different methods as some Jedi/Force sensitives do not have blood.
Magneto is a 'mutant' with an X-gene that allows him to access an "energy field" that binds and penetrates everything.

Midichlorians are a symbiont, the X-Gene is in the nuclear genome. Oh, and The Force is decidedly mysticism, and the Electro-Magnetic Force is not.

Magneto creates visible force fields that glow blue. Palpataine creates visible lightning that glows blue.

Yes, because the color makes them identical!

Magneto can control his energy field to move objects with even the barest traces of metal. Palpatine can control his energy field to move any objects.

And their mechanisms of action must therefor be exactly the same

If Palpatine encountered Magneto, he would think he was a powerful Force sensitive with mental blocks.

Until he reached out with the force and saw nothing the fuck there.

It actually makes perfect sense and puts them on a level playing field where you can actually compare the two without having to have nerd rage arguments about different types of metal and what stormtroopers mean when they say they are lowering the magnetic field.

And doing so is not compatible with the metaphysics of either universe.

[Shroom Man 777]

Since when did Magneto make blue Force fields in the movies?

[Havok]

snip

Metaphysics? I'm sorry, I didn't know that you were basing your knowledge of the two universes on bullshit.

I will just throw this out there...

The Marvel Universe takes place on Earth 616.
Our Earth, Earth 0000, is the keystone Earth from which Earth 616 comes, via the company Marvel Comics.
Marvel characters have crossed over to Earth 0000 twice and their powers worked here as they worked in 616.

Since that is a canon fact in the Marvel Universe, then Marvel Comics publishing the Star Wars comics run also created a universe that can interact with the 616 universe, or any other universe in the Multiverse. (If you don't like that, then the opening of every movie which states that the Star Wars story takes place in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago, establishes that it is in our, Universe 0000, and already exists.)

As has been shown on countless occasion, powers of the heroes continue to work as they travel from universe to universe, or as represented by the doppelgangers in those universes, unless directly stated. Therefore, the power that Magneto or any other hero or villain draws on is present in all the Multiverses, unless specifically stated.

Therefore Magneto's power, unless specifically shown, will work in the Star Wars Universe and Palpatine's powers, unless specifically shown, will work in the 616 Universe.

Therefore the Force exists in both universes unless specifically stated. Therefor both universes are compatible with each other unless specifically stated.

You don't have anything that specifically states they are not compatible, do you?

[Havok]

Since when did Magneto make blue Force fields in the movies?

An actual good point. I was speaking about Magneto in general, and 616 more specifically, not the First Class Magneto.