Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Zaune »

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The Guardian wrote:The coalition government faces the first industrial uprising against its austerity measures today as up to 750,000 public servants strike over planned changes to their pensions.

A third of schools are expected to close and two-thirds of universities have cancelled lectures. Benefits will go unpaid, court cases will be postponed, police leave has been cancelled in London and airports are bracing themselves for backlogs at immigration.

Mark Serwotka, leader of the Public and Commercial Services union, said it was the most important strike in his union's history. "Everything we have ever worked for is under attack," he added.

The government was trying to avoid inflaming the situation . David Cameron told the Commons: "What we are proposing is fair: it is fair to taxpayers but it is also fair to the public sector because we want to continue strong public sector pensions."

He said Labour was avoiding the issue, accusing the party of being "paid for by the unions [so] they can't discuss the unions". None of the four striking unions, with members in schools, colleges, universities and the civil service, is affiliated to the Labour party.

Nearly every other union is poised to move towards strike action by the end of the year if the bitter standoff over public sector pension reforms is not resolved.

Roads in central London will shut as thousands of people march in demonstrations that will be echoed across the country. Police leave has been cancelled so officers can cover for striking police community support officers, call handlers on the 999 lines and security staff.

Some groups calling for peaceful civil disobedience are planning events in the capital. There were suggestions on the web that anarchists may target the events.

Downing Street said it believed only one in five of the 500,000 civil servants would strike and predicted that a third of England's 24,600 schools would close, a third would partially close and a third would be unaffected.

Nearly 8,000 state schools have confirmed that they will either close or reduce lessons. Liverpool will be the worst hit city, with three-quarters of schools affected. In Newcastle, 72% of schools will be short-staffed or closed and in Manchester and Birmingham around half are affected. Up to 20,000 teachers in private schools may also go on strike.

BAA said delays and disruption were possible at its airports, as up to 14,000 staff at the UK Border Agency affiliated to the PCS prepared to stage walkouts. UKBA advised airlines this week that passengers should rethink their travel plans amid fears of long queues at passport control, but then appeared to back away from that advice, saying it would work hard to keep delays to a minimum.

The PCS said it expected delays at the port of Dover and Heathrow, Manchester and Gatwick airports. Ryanair called on the government to allow the army or police to staff passport booths and customs desks and said what it called union "headbangers" should not be allowed to disrupt flight schedules.

The business secretary, Vince Cable, said: "I don't think the public will understand. The public view would be that we are negotiating and are willing to negotiate, so why would people be out on strike until that process has run its course?"

Cable said he was "optimistic" that pensions reform talks would succeed, saying: "Most trade unions are committed to negotiations. They asked for the talks and we are taking them seriously." He also played down the scale of strikes, pointing to the "relatively" small number of unions taking part today.

But Brendan Barber, the general secretary of the TUC, is to say that the strikes are "hardly surprising" considering the scale of the government's cuts to the public sector. "Nobody wants to see our schools and jobcentres closed. But our resolve is strong, our determination is absolute and we will see this through until we reach a just and fair settlement."

Both the unions and government are watching keenly to gauge the public tolerance to today's the disruption, to influence their future strategies. One senior Conservative source described the strike as a "test-case" of the strikes acknowledging that there are fears within government that the sustained strike action that some unions are threatening could ultimately damage the economic recovery. He said: "People are cautious, I'd say nervous. If there is a summer, autumn, winter of discontent the real worry is the effect on the economy. We're waiting to see where public opinion goes on this and the strategy is to be non-confrontational, make the argument to the public but not provoke the unions."

By one estimate the tTreasury could save £30m from the pay forfeited by the striking teachers today but business leaders warned that this was hugely outbalanced by the wider cost to the economy of hundreds of thousands of parents having to take the day off.

The British Chambers of Commerce said disruption will lead to many parents having to take the day off work to look after their children, losing them pay and hitting productivity.
So, anyone think the current government will actually back down and offer some sort of meaningful concession? I'm certainly not holding my breath for it.


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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by evilsoup »

Considering that some of the Tory scum have been on national broadcasts saying that they won't back down on this, no. Do you listen to the Today program? There was a pretty amusing verbal smackdown; the host and the unionist basically ganged up on the odious Tory vermin. Turns out that (according to a government report) the public sector pension costs are actually going to go down in the long term: they dropped that particular bombshell just after he said that they were going to get more expensive!

But like a cat slowly torturing a field-mouse to death before disembowelling it and leaving its corpse on your doorstep, this is what to expect from the tories - being fundamentally useless upper-class fuckwits, they despise anyone who does useful work. What has really angered me is the 'Labour' party response to the whole issue. While in opposition (where one would expect them to oppose), they have shown their true colours for all to see in supporting the tories against the unions (which they were founded to support, and which provide most of their funding). At this point, none of the main parties even vaguely resemble something I might consider voting for.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Darth Tanner »

It's still true however that public sector pensions are far more generous and taken earlier than their private counterparts and the cost difference is made up by the taxpayer. You can't really get away from that basic point on inequality. However I do note one of the few groups of public sector employees not having their pension rights taken away is MP's.

One day of strikes has no chance of getting the gov to change their mind. I don't think the strikers have much public support either considering private sector taxation is paying for the overly generour pensions esecially in the climate of cuts and lowering living standards.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Just because the private sector is inadequately unionised and so gets screwed over on their pensions, doesn't mean the public sector should get the same. We should be trying to bring the private sector up to a liveable standard, not dragging the public sector into the mire.

According to the BBC, polls show that people are not one way or the other: the majority don't support cutting public sector pensions, but around half don't think the strikes should go ahead.

EDIT: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 526664.stm (may or may not work for those outside the UK).
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Zaune »

evilsoup wrote:According to the BBC, polls show that ... the majority don't support cutting public sector pensions, but around half don't think the strikes should go ahead.
I should be very interested to hear what they suggest the striking public-sector workers should do instead. Petitions, letters to one's MP and peaceful demonstrations have had about as much impact as burnt offerings to the Flying Spaghetti Monster; it took an angry mob trashing Conservative Party headquarters to elicit so much as a few condescending soundbites!

If they continue taking that attitude I give it eighteen months to two years before the first Tory MP gets lynched pour encourager les autres.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by TC27 »

Im sorry the simplistic Tory bashing by some of you here is nonsense and IMO gives you no more credibility than some old duffer who denounces the Labour party as 'The Red horde' or US Teabaggers who think Obama is a Islamic agent.

The reality of the UKs position is that £7000 is being borrowed every second just to cover current spending and the economy is unlikely to grow in any significant way for a while yet. Regardless of whoever formed the Government pretty much the same decisions would be have to be made to keep the credibility of the lenders who we are currently dependant on.

Back to the subject - the purpose of the strike is of course a tactical one to put pressure on the government whilst the negotiations over the settlement continue rather than the 'toys being thrown out of the pram'/general mindless violence we saw in the student fee's protest.
Both sides will be battling to win public opinion over (the Today interview as a win for the Unions mostly due to the interviewer being cleary less than impartial).
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by evilsoup »

It's hard to be impartial when one side is clearly in the right? And I'd say the point of the strike is largely to test the waters - to see what the public will put up with.

And how is the Tory bashing nonsense? They're the verminous tossbuckets who are talking about making even more restricted union regulation in (iirc) the most restrictive European country, they're the ones not negotiating in good faith, deliberately trying to provoke the unions.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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TC27 wrote:Im sorry the simplistic Tory bashing by some of you here is nonsense and IMO gives you no more credibility than some old duffer who denounces the Labour party as 'The Red horde' or US Teabaggers who think Obama is a Islamic agent.

The reality of the UKs position is that £7000 is being borrowed every second just to cover current spending and the economy is unlikely to grow in any significant way for a while yet. Regardless of whoever formed the Government pretty much the same decisions would be have to be made to keep the credibility of the lenders who we are currently dependant on.
This makes it no less upsetting to be dealing with a Government that doesn't respond to public concerns.

The past ten years have seen a gradually increasing level of discontent with the global economy as laissez-faire advocates, the world financial sector, and many economists would have it operate. People don't like increasing Gini coefficients. They don't like watching workers take the hit while financial institutions are 'too big to fail.' They don't like mass layoffs.

And they don't like their elected leaders betraying the total disconnect between what the policy establishment wants (government austerity measures, business-friendly measures) and what the people want (which is for the paladins of the New Global Economy to be visibly taking a big share of the heat).

That doesn't mean everything these people want would be good policy. But sneering at them is foolish- the system is supposed to be responsive as well as responsible. The legislature is not supposed to serenely ignore what happens to the peons while following the advice of the same class of people who created the world financial system that just melted down on us.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Simon_Jester wrote:This makes it no less upsetting to be dealing with a Government that doesn't respond to public concerns.

The past ten years have seen a gradually increasing level of discontent with the global economy as laissez-faire advocates, the world financial sector, and many economists would have it operate. People don't like increasing Gini coefficients. They don't like watching workers take the hit while financial institutions are 'too big to fail.' They don't like mass layoffs.

And they don't like their elected leaders betraying the total disconnect between what the policy establishment wants (government austerity measures, business-friendly measures) and what the people want (which is for the paladins of the New Global Economy to be visibly taking a big share of the heat).

That doesn't mean everything these people want would be good policy. But sneering at them is foolish- the system is supposed to be responsive as well as responsible. The legislature is not supposed to serenely ignore what happens to the peons while following the advice of the same class of people who created the world financial system that just melted down on us.
Feeling somewhat ignored wouldn't be so much of a problem if the broad strokes of what the Conservatives want to do were sound but a few details needed tuning up, but just about everyone except the Tories themselves seems to have noticed a big glaring hole in their reasoning. I'm no economist -I don't even have a C in GCSE maths- but even I know that all those newly jobless public sector employees are going to stop spending money on anything but the bare essentials, which means a lot of private sector employees are going to be out of work and spending less themselves, and the vicious cycle could run on and on until there are no businesses left to go bust.
Okay, eventually the big financial institutions will recover from their massive cock-up and be ready to start offering loans and venture capital to aspiring small businessmen again, but there aren't going to be very many start-ups in this country if everybody's either so dirt-poor they can't afford anything nice or so rich that they never have to buy anything more than once.

This deduction can't require all that much advanced thinking, because I managed it and I'm a comprehensive-schooled aspie who studied Creative Writing at university and couldn't finish the degree.* Either the Tories are genuinely more clueless about socio-economics than I am, or they know all the above and just don't care. Neither possibility is especially conducive to nuanced, even-handed criticism.

* In my defence, this was a result of the kind of really spectacular mental breakdown that comes of reflecting on the fact that I'd spent two years of my life living in Luton for the sake of a degree in Creative Writing.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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TC27 wrote:Im sorry the simplistic Tory bashing by some of you here is nonsense and IMO gives you no more credibility than some old duffer who denounces the Labour party as 'The Red horde' or US Teabaggers who think Obama is a Islamic agent.

The reality of the UKs position is that £7000 is being borrowed every second just to cover current spending and the economy is unlikely to grow in any significant way for a while yet. Regardless of whoever formed the Government pretty much the same decisions would be have to be made to keep the credibility of the lenders who we are currently dependant on.

Back to the subject - the purpose of the strike is of course a tactical one to put pressure on the government whilst the negotiations over the settlement continue rather than the 'toys being thrown out of the pram'/general mindless violence we saw in the student fee's protest.
Both sides will be battling to win public opinion over (the Today interview as a win for the Unions mostly due to the interviewer being cleary less than impartial).
Where exactly did you get that figure?
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Simon_Jester »

That corresponds to an annual deficit of 220 thousand million pounds a year, which isn't out of line- it may be wrong but I wouldn't think it impossible, given the present size of the British economy compared to the American economy (which runs a federal deficit much larger than that).
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Old Peculier »

Zaune wrote:This deduction can't require all that much advanced thinking, because I managed it and I'm a comprehensive-schooled aspie who studied Creative Writing at university and couldn't finish the degree.* Either the Tories are genuinely more clueless about socio-economics than I am, or they know all the above and just don't care. Neither possibility is especially conducive to nuanced, even-handed criticism.
If even you, with no special knowledge or training can see something that others cannot, perhaps the conclusion you should come to isn't that the people who disagree with you are even more clueless than you, but rather that you need to investigate the issue further.

The UK has a reputation for having weak private sector unions, and as public sector unions are universally bloated then it would seem that the private sector needs a few breaks, while the public sector is reigned in, in terms of pay. Personally I am against the cuts to health, defense, police etc. but I think that being able to reduce public pay/pensions will help maintain services and keep more people in useful employment.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Within reason- but putting large permanent dents in those unions won't help matters in the long run, any more than it does in Wisconsin.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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The problem I have with the Coalitions scheme for economic recovery is that they have shifted the argument of how such a recovery can be performed to a mere matter of cuts. Sure there is the VAT rise and some other smaller tax rises. However the idea of raising say, income tax, though understandably unpopular is not even considered (correct me if I am wrong). The government is not investing much more than it is cutting and shifting around the funding for other things. However these constant cuts are damaging our services and on top of that, not even investing for the future. Already we are potentially facing economic stagnation and the last thing that helps with that is cutting back more and more.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Bluewolf wrote:The problem I have with the Coalitions scheme for economic recovery is that they have shifted the argument of how such a recovery can be performed to a mere matter of cuts. Sure there is the VAT rise and some other smaller tax rises. However the idea of raising say, income tax, though understandably unpopular is not even considered (correct me if I am wrong). The government is not investing much more than it is cutting and shifting around the funding for other things. However these constant cuts are damaging our services and on top of that, not even investing for the future. Already we are potentially facing economic stagnation and the last thing that helps with that is cutting back more and more.
We could tax income more, that would lower spending and saving; we could raise VAT even further, but this would be unpopular and reduce spending, we could raise tax on alcohol and cigarettes further, but that can only go so far before people start looking more for ways to dodge the tax. We've gone for a bank levy, which essentially means diverting money away from the banks to other parts of the economy, which is popular. We've also increased capital gains tax on richer people, which means diverting money from rich investors, to invest in the public interest (in theory), instead of the rich investor's personal interest.

I'd like to see measures made to reduce income inequality, partially through income tax, partially through active measures (investment in apprenticeships, education etc.) and partially through regulation, eg. ratio of top salary to lowest salary within a cooperation, possibly tailored for different industries. Extra taxes or penalties could be take from business which failed to meet these regulations. I also think legalized drugs and/or prostitution could be further sources of revenue, but I don't see that as too likely.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Lord Woodlouse »

My good wife (a teacher) was taking part in the strike yesterday. She was kinda strong-armed into it, about 13 people went up to her and demanded to know if she was striking and basically told her she would be isolated by her peers if she came to work.

Up until a few days before the strike she wasn't even in a union (only recently finished her British qualifications for teaching, since she's American).

I sympathise a lot with what they're campaigning for, but I detest the mob mentality unions are capable of creating.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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evilsoup wrote:Just because the private sector is inadequately unionised and so gets screwed over on their pensions, doesn't mean the public sector should get the same. We should be trying to bring the private sector up to a liveable standard, not dragging the public sector into the mire.
Public sector unions have absolutely no interest in that, other than a vague suggestion that the private sector should be more unionised (i.e. also paying dues to the union protection racket). Of course the reason that that private sector is less unionised is that the unions destroyed huge chunks of it in the late 1970s and early 1980s, making UK industry unable to deal with foreign competition.

Remember that there is absolutely nothing stopping private sector workers from pooling resources and forming co-operatives instead of working for private or shareholder-owned companies. All the relevant legal structures exist, if you're so desperate for a little piece of communism to call your own you just have to convince enough people to sign up. Hardly anyone does in practice both because the management track record of co-ops is poor and because taking extra holidays striking and angrily demanding hand-outs is a hell of a lot easier than running a productive business.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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One of the arguments you see flying around runs as follows:

There used to be an understanding that the Public Sector got paid worse than the Private Sector but got a better pension. Now though, the Public Sector gets paid better than the Private Sector, so it's unfair that they also get a better pension.

Let's look at this...

Median increase of level of full-time earnings in...
The public sector, 2010: 3.0% Source - ONS
The private sector, 2010: 2.0% Source - ONS

So, looks like the Public Sector is having a bonanza, eh?

Retail Price Index (Inflation, How much stuff costs type) increase in tax year ending 2011: 5.2% Source - ONS

So... increases in wages in both sector are behind the UK cost of living increase; both public and private workers are taking a continuous pay cut. It is simply that the Public Sector is better at resting pay cuts, why?

Perhaps it's because the Public Sector has large trade unions to fight for the workers, and the public sector in this country, by and large, does not.

Now, call me insane, but I think it might be rather better to restore private sector pay by making legal changes that help the public sector unionize and fight for the wage increases they deserve, rather than blame the Public Sector for being better at protecting themselves, and demand they conform.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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NecronLord wrote:Now, call me insane, but I think it might be rather better to restore private sector pay by making legal changes that help the public sector unionize and fight for the wage increases they deserve, rather than blame the Public Sector for being better at protecting themselves, and demand they conform.
As Thanas will explain to you endlessly, UK industry is a poor pathetic cripple, a few starved dregs surviving only because Germany has not yet felt the need to destroy it utterly. The UK tax base is supported by service industries that Stas will assure you are due to vanish into the ether any minute now, since any economic activity other than steel mills and coal mines is an illusion.

Given these indisputable facts, how do you expect UK manufacturing companies to pay higher salaries without destroying margins and inviting the final destruction that the above posters predict? It would be nice to generate more wealth so that there is actually something to redistribute, but since unionists hate anything and everything associated with the word 'productivity' it's unsurprising that they ignore this option.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Starglider wrote:As Thanas will explain to you endlessly, UK industry is a poor pathetic cripple, a few starved dregs surviving only because Germany has not yet felt the need to destroy it utterly. The UK tax base is supported by service industries that Stas will assure you are due to vanish into the ether any minute now, since any economic activity other than steel mills and coal mines is an illusion.
Neither is a statement I'd actually say is true. There's a surprising (EDIT: surprising, considering the amount of smack that gets bandied about about how there's no industry in the UK) amount of manufacturing in the UK. And of course, service industries are not worthless. I am capable of thinking that a general downward trend in wages is a bad thing without believing either of those things.
Given these indisputable facts, how do you expect UK manufacturing companies to pay higher salaries without destroying margins and inviting the final destruction that the above posters predict? It would be nice to generate more wealth so that there is actually something to redistribute, but since unionists hate anything and everything associated with the word 'productivity' it's unsurprising that they ignore this option.
Fortunately I don't hold this strange view?
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Starglider »

NecronLord wrote:Nonetheless, I rather think that a continuous downward trend in wages is a bad thing.
It's ok. Stas explained that the British have collective responsibility for an indefinite amount of undefined evil, which they can only escape by having a bloody revolution (not sure if it has to be a communist revolution to count). In the mean time they all deserve falling wages.

Of course with this unavoidable prescription of original sin, one might as well just embrace it and go help the financial sector strip-mine pension funds and force small nations into debt slavery...
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Stay on topic please?
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Starglider »

NecronLord wrote:Stay on topic please?
I'm just having a little fun before the regular crowd of UK-haters arrives to dump their internally inconsistent mix of toxic waste on the thread. There is a serious point though, which is that it isn't possible to have a constructive discussion about UK policy on a forum where the moderators spew constant negativity about every aspect of the country. No matter, I imagine this will be split to HoS momentarily.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by evilsoup »

Starglider wrote:
evilsoup wrote:Just because the private sector is inadequately unionised and so gets screwed over on their pensions, doesn't mean the public sector should get the same. We should be trying to bring the private sector up to a liveable standard, not dragging the public sector into the mire.
Public sector unions have absolutely no interest in that, other than a vague suggestion that the private sector should be more unionised (i.e. also paying dues to the union protection racket).
Unions certainly provide protection, but I hardly see how they could be called a racket. It's not as if the unions will lower your wages if you don't join them.
Of course the reason that that private sector is less unionised is that the unions destroyed huge chunks of it in the late 1970s and early 1980s, making UK industry unable to deal with foreign competition.
Surely you mean the conservative government of the time destroyed British industry in a pointlessly mean-spirited and spiteful way, even after comprehensively defeating the unions?
Remember that there is absolutely nothing stopping private sector workers from pooling resources and forming co-operatives instead of working for private or shareholder-owned companies. All the relevant legal structures exist, if you're so desperate for a little piece of communism to call your own you just have to convince enough people to sign up. Hardly anyone does in practice both because the management track record of co-ops is poor
Got anything to back this shit up?
and because taking extra holidays striking and angrily demanding hand-outs is a hell of a lot easier than running a productive business.
Go fuck yourself in the eye with a rusty razor blade. Nobody likes to go on strike, mainly because you don't get paid for doing so. People go on strike because the alternative is losing pay or working conditions or (in this case) pension rights.
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

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madd0ct0r
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by madd0ct0r »

I seem to remember a similar difference of opinion in the 'What was so bad about Margaret Thatcher' thread.

If the unions were not acting to protect their member's interests, how could they justify their existence?

A good friend of mine ( a life long tory who grew up on a council estate) has mentioned he sympathises with some of the strikers. Not all, but enough he feels marginally annoyed that Labour can't get it's act together to act as a coherent opposition.

I'm a bit short on news out here, so I don't want to comment on the actual rights and wrongs of the public sector strike - I simply don't know enough about the situation.

I do know that for many chunks of British society - this is a battle they actually want, are convinced they will win and will either correct the wrongs of Thatcher or carry on her banner. I forsee a general election coming soon.
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