WW2 Battle for Britain

[LaCroix]

Hello.

I saw a documentation about the initial situation at the start of the Battle for Britain.

According to the documentary (it was form the Special Service Department, so it might be propaganda) German air force outnumbered the English about 10 to 1, and there wasn't enough weapons in England to equip a single modern division, with about one tank per 1000 square miles, due to the equipment left behind a t Dunkirk.

They then showed the plan of Germany - air superiority, chute troops to take the airfields, and then naval invasion.

One question cam to my mind. what if the German generals had been ballsy, and instead of using 4-500 bombers to drop bombs without pause, had used them to drop chute troopers and towed gliders, in order to get control of airfields.

Would this have had any chance of success? The English were low on heavy weapons, which would make the situation less suicidal, and with an airfield and relative air superiority, supply by air would be possible, at least on paper. The sheet surprise of such an operation would also help tremendously.

Of course, if these statements by the SSD were made up, this all would be suicide.

[PainRack]

Hello.

I saw a documentation about the initial situation at the start of the Battle for Britain.

According to the documentary (it was form the Special Service Department, so it might be propaganda) German air force outnumbered the English about 10 to 1, and there wasn't enough weapons in England to equip a single modern division, with about one tank per 1000 square miles, due to the equipment left behind a t Dunkirk.

They then showed the plan of Germany - air superiority, chute troops to take the airfields, and then naval invasion.

One question cam to my mind. what if the German generals had been ballsy, and instead of using 4-500 bombers to drop bombs without pause, had used them to drop chute troopers and towed gliders, in order to get control of airfields.

Would this have had any chance of success? The English were low on heavy weapons, which would make the situation less suicidal, and with an airfield and relative air superiority, supply by air would be possible, at least on paper. The sheet surprise of such an operation would also help tremendously.

Of course, if these statements by the SSD were made up, this all would be suicide.

Literally sucide. The Germans simply didn't have the air supremacy needed to launch and sustain an airborne invasion, furthermore, airborne invasions relied on follow up forces to actually move in and alleviate/support them. This isn't Vietnam where heliborne forces could indefinitely stake out a hole in the ground.

This is without pointing out the errors and other crazies involved in such a plan.

[LaCroix]

So they went for the heartstrings with their appeal about how bad Britain's defence situation was in the earlier parts of the Air war, right?

I knew that the air superiority wasn't that one-sided, but I have no idea about the British capabilities on ground in case of an actual invasion.

[Shawn]

The Germans still needed to bring the follow on forces across the Channel. The Royal Navy could easily handle the KM especially after the losses the Germans took in Norway.

[Sea Skimmer]

Sounds like you were watching the ‘Why We Fight’ series, which is as a pure propaganda as the US ever produced. Most of them are actually reasonably accurate, but the Battle for Britain episode is not even remotely. Some of that is because of made up stuff, some of that is because RAF intelligence actually did greatly overestimate German air strength at the time. The Nazi 'invasion' plans are based on Nazi propaganda dreams.

[LaCroix]

Thanks, Skimmer. Your guess is correct.

[Vejut]

This link has the previous discussion of Sealion and the Battle of Britain. Stuart's link in his first post has a quick summary of the state of Fighter Command at the start of the battle--even in the german reckoning, 2:1 is closer, and the actual level is about even in fighters. I believe if you do a search, as well, you can turn up one of MK sheppard's posts about the pilot and plane numbers at various points during the battle.

[PeZook]

People tend to overestimate the power of paratroopers, and the power of air supply. Paratroopers are essentially really really mobile light infantry, except the "really really mobile" part lasts until they jump, upon which time they become regular (though often scattered and lost) light infantry. So they can hit a target very fast, thus using the element of surprise, and hold it for a bit of time, but absolutely rely on heavier forces relieving them before running out of supplies. This is especially true in WWII, where paratroopers had far less heavy weapons (especially anti-tank weapons) than today, yet they also had higher supply requirements than typical light infantry because of a high proportion of automatic weapons like SMGs.

Even a relatively light foot unit with few tanks and some artillery could overrun paratroopers relatively easily given time.

This is removed from the second problem, that is supplying the paratroopers by air (which Germany couldn't do at all, even if the skies were completely uncontested).

Then there's another problem: scattering. Paratroopers tend to scatter, miss their landing zones, etc, and have to take some time to reorganize. Hence why they are trained so hard: But, funny thought: It was hard enough for Allied paratroopers in Normandy to organize and find their objectives, and they wouldn't have to contend with a hostile population that would be actively hunting paratroopers trying to reach staging areas in small groups after missing their landing zones. So, even before launching the actual attack, the paratroopers units would suffer disproportionate losses.

Even if they overcome all this through superior training and the iron Aryan spirit, they'd be stuck in the middle of England while the Wehrmacht guys coming to relieve them are busy drowning in the Channel after a a group of British destroyers sailed nearby at speed swamping their river barges.

[Tolya]

Anyone remember "The eagle has landed"? I think it illustrates the basic flaw of paratroopers. They use the element of surprise to achieve initial success but eventually, without external support and reinforcements, find themselves stranded on undefensible positions being picked one by one.

England would have a lot of wrecked churches after such an invasion.

[bz249]

People tend to overestimate the power of paratroopers, and the power of air supply. Paratroopers are essentially really really mobile light infantry, except the "really really mobile" part lasts until they jump, upon which time they become regular (though often scattered and lost) light infantry. So they can hit a target very fast, thus using the element of surprise, and hold it for a bit of time, but absolutely rely on heavier forces relieving them before running out of supplies. This is especially true in WWII, where paratroopers had far less heavy weapons (especially anti-tank weapons) than today, yet they also had higher supply requirements than typical light infantry because of a high proportion of automatic weapons like SMGs.

Also people tend to overestimate the effect of air power against armored warships. True against the usual mindset of the navy (warships are huge investment, so its better not loosing them as loosing) avoiding airpower is the sane thing to do. However stopping a determined fleet, which is willing to take losses (and it is afterall the invasion of Britain what good a fleet can do when they lost the country) is a completely different story. Even if Germany achieved total air superiority (which the British can easily avoid by simply relocating the fighter wings to the North, outside the operational range of the Bf-109 fighters) then they face a problem of sinking a helluva lot of warships. And well the battle of Sibuyan Sea (which was fought against a much weaker foe by aircrafts and aircrew dedicated to antiship missions) tells a different story.

Anyway the British High Command was so scared about the imminent German Invasion, that they decided to keep the 7th Armored Division in Egypt (one of the few British armored units) and reinforce it with more tanks.

[PeZook]

Adding insult to injury, you don't actually have to sail battleships into the Channel to fuck up the invasion fleet.

The "fleet" was planned to include some 1200 barges, 170 actual ships, plus tugs. If the Royal Navy managed to just sail a few destroyers through the formation at speed, they'd have caused massive casualties with their bow wakes alone. Since Sealion plans called for escorts composed of Uboats, mines and torpedo boats, it's likely the destroyers would get a free run of the formation for a while, sailing up and down, shooting up the tugs, swamping even more barges etc.

Even if you sink 5, 10 or 20 destroyers somehow, you would take tens of thousands of casualties, lose important equipment and supplies, and most likely get your fleet completely disorganizaed and unable to perform the landing. Then you better hope the RAF doesn't show up, or light craft do not harrass your fleet on the way home, or more destroyers don't pop in to join the party.

If a battleship or (more likely) some cruisers got amongst them, the entire thing would turn into an epic bloodbath the likes of which the world has never seen before.

EDIT: And that's if you set off the invasion during the day, so that the Luftwaffe can attempt to sink Royal Navy boats. Good luck hitting a destroyer from the air when its going 30+ knots up and down your formation at night.

[bz249]

Adding insult to injury, you don't actually have to sail battleships into the Channel to fuck up the invasion fleet.

The "fleet" was planned to include some 1200 barges, 170 actual ships, plus tugs. If the Royal Navy managed to just sail a few destroyers through the formation at speed, they'd have caused massive casualties with their bow wakes alone. Since Sealion plans called for escorts composed of Uboats, mines and torpedo boats, it's likely the destroyers would get a free run of the formation for a while, sailing up and down, shooting up the tugs, swamping even more barges etc.

Even if you sink 5, 10 or 20 destroyers somehow, you would take tens of thousands of casualties, lose important equipment and supplies, and most likely get your fleet completely disorganizaed and unable to perform the landing. Then you better hope the RAF doesn't show up, or light craft do not harrass your fleet on the way home, or more destroyers don't pop in to join the party.

If a battleship or (more likely) some cruisers got amongst them, the entire thing would turn into an epic bloodbath the likes of which the world has never seen before.

EDIT: And that's if you set off the invasion during the day, so that the Luftwaffe can attempt to sink Royal Navy boats. Good luck hitting a destroyer from the air when its going 30+ knots up and down your formation at night.

Well if the Germans decide it is the time to foolishly commit every available warships, then they could build a rather strong surface action group around Scharnhorst, Gneisenau (okay both were still under repair, but let's pretend they were ready) and possibly Bismarck (what are sea trials for, the crew can do on job training). Then the RN needs something big down there should they try to intercept the German invasion fleet. Of course they have more than enough heavy ships to sacrifice, thus sooner or later they will overwhelm the German defenders, and that's the decisive factor: they have luxury to take losses. Loosing over half of their fleet means they still have a safe superiority over the Germans (especially when they also suffer some damage, which is quite likely).

Also one just have to look at what the real life Overlord achieved. There the Allies had air and naval supremacy (so not only superiority... they were free to do whatever they wanted and didn't have to worry about the actions of the Luftwaffe or the Kriegsmarine), years of experience in preparing for and conducting naval invasions, refined equipment for opposed landings including DD-tanks and Higgins boats, a generous supply of merchant vessels and tankers for supplying the later stages, achieved complete strategic surprise and were fighting against a rather depleted enemy. And with all of those positive factors, after almost 50 days of campaigning they barely conquered 1000 km2 of France.

From those factors, the Germans have... well British Army was in a rather bad shape (though they could easily withdraw some troops from the Middle East had they really needed it) and morale was somewhat low.

[folti78]

EDIT: And that's if you set off the invasion during the day, so that the Luftwaffe can attempt to sink Royal Navy boats. Good luck hitting a destroyer from the air when its going 30+ knots up and down your formation at night.

Especially as the Luftwaffe's antiship capabilities were rather limited. During the Dunkirk evacuation they only sunk six destroyers*, but nearly all of them were either stationary, loading troops or going slow. Although in that case the RAF did a good job of keeping most of the Luftwaffe far away from the coast.

* they sunk other ships too, but those were transports and civilians vessels, not warships with enhanced damage protection.

[K. A. Pital]

Aren't we discussing a scenario where the RAF is incapacitated, however? It couldn't keep the LF from sinking the ships in this case. Though it remains a subject of discussion how efficient the LF would've been.

[Simon_Jester]

Aren't we discussing a scenario where the RAF is incapacitated, however? It couldn't keep the LF from sinking the ships in this case. Though it remains a subject of discussion how efficient the LF would've been.

The British had so many ships, though, that it would be extremely difficult for the Luftwaffe to sink them all in a reasonably short timeframe. Moreover, the Luftwaffe never really had a chance of destroying the RAF to the last plane- at most they could have suppressed the air defense of southern England to the point where the British couldn't stop German bombers from rampaging over it. Destroying British cruisers squirreled away in ports beyond the reach of German bomber escorts would be a very different game- and yet those cruisers would become available to meet an invasion, once the British realized it was imminent.

So in the event of Sea Lion, you'd see the last carefully shepherded remnants of the RAF committed to battle, cruisers and battleships being risked within range of German land-based aviation on the Channel (as never happened historically)... while the Luftwaffe would no doubt inflict very severe losses on these forces, based on their historical performance I find it hard to believe they could do enough damage fast enough to prevent the defenders from wrecking the invasion force before it could get troops ashore.

[K. A. Pital]

So in the event of Sea Lion, you'd see the last carefully shepherded remnants of the RAF committed to battle, cruisers and battleships being risked within range of German land-based aviation on the Channel (as never happened historically)...

However, that all depends on Britain having strategic advantage, and Germany failing to utilize the surprise factor with the Sea Lion. Considering Germans were pretty damn good at using a surprise strategic offensive, I wouldn't bet on that. A failure to predict the exact timing of a strategic offensive (as it happened with USSR, France and Poland) leads to an utter disaster in a very short timeframe. So Britain would have to know Germany's dates to actually be able to throw "all remnants" of the air force into battle; otherwise they'd be in a typical state of heightened alert.

I'm not saying Germany's invasion is a success, but I would assume that naval assets would be a much greater hindrance than remaining air force assets. Total attrition of the RAF is not that possible, but total attrition is not necessary to make the air force incapable of serious resistance; the Luftwaffe understood it on their own skin when they lost the trained pilots in a matter of a year - 1943-1944 - and there was no one to replace them with.

[aieeegrunt]

Germany's airborne forces and more importantly it's air transport fleet had been badly mauled in Holland, it wouldn't be of much use for a while anyways.

[Sea Skimmer]

Then there's another problem: scattering. Paratroopers tend to scatter, miss their landing zones, etc, and have to take some time to reorganize. Hence why they are trained so hard: But, funny thought: It was hard enough for Allied paratroopers in Normandy to organize and find their objectives, and they wouldn't have to contend with a hostile population that would be actively hunting paratroopers trying to reach staging areas in small groups after missing their landing zones. So, even before launching the actual attack, the paratroopers units would suffer disproportionate losses.

It gets even better. German paratroopers jumped without any weapons other then a pistol or nothing. All rifles and SMGs were dropped in containers. This is not true of the more numerous glider troops, but the paratroopers are basically helpless when they land until they can find and open those weapons containers. It worked out incredibly poorly at Crete, it'd work out far worse over Britain. At Crete many of the defenders did not even have rifles, and had almost no mobility, zero air support and naval support only for short periods at night. None of those would be true of an airborne invasion of southern England.

[Simon_Jester]

You know what I'd love to read?

The story of Sea Lion, as it 'would' have happened had the Germans been fool enough to execute it as planned. All impossibilities (German generals not resigning rather than carrying it out) should be lampshaded, all difficulties illustrated... parachutists landing on golf courses and getting brained by retirees with golf clubs while their pistols are tangled up in their harnesses...

That would make a fun short story.

So in the event of Sea Lion, you'd see the last carefully shepherded remnants of the RAF committed to battle, cruisers and battleships being risked within range of German land-based aviation on the Channel (as never happened historically)...

However, that all depends on Britain having strategic advantage, and Germany failing to utilize the surprise factor with the Sea Lion. Considering Germans were pretty damn good at using a surprise strategic offensive, I wouldn't bet on that. A failure to predict the exact timing of a strategic offensive (as it happened with USSR, France and Poland) leads to an utter disaster in a very short timeframe. So Britain would have to know Germany's dates to actually be able to throw "all remnants" of the air force into battle; otherwise they'd be in a typical state of heightened alert.

I'm not saying Germany's invasion is a success, but I would assume that naval assets would be a much greater hindrance than remaining air force assets.

Absolutely. You're right- but then, note that while Fighter Command would have been utterly ruined by a Luftwaffe victory in the Battle of Britain (due to loss of pilots), Bomber Command would not have been so badly affected- since their forces were being reserved as part of the apparatus of counter-attack, and they wouldn't be in direct combat.

The navy would still be far more significant, but what I'm getting at is that to make the offensive work at all, the Germans would have to do things like lay those minefields- they could achieve strategic surprise in the timing of the operation, but tactically the British would get at least some clue of what was going on. I'm not enough of an expert to say whether they'd learn at H-hour minus 24, or H-12, or H-6, or H-1... but you'd still see an intense naval and hard-fought if weak air counterattack against the landing forces, probably while they were still trying to get ashore.

[bz249]

So in the event of Sea Lion, you'd see the last carefully shepherded remnants of the RAF committed to battle, cruisers and battleships being risked within range of German land-based aviation on the Channel (as never happened historically)...

However, that all depends on Britain having strategic advantage, and Germany failing to utilize the surprise factor with the Sea Lion. Considering Germans were pretty damn good at using a surprise strategic offensive, I wouldn't bet on that. A failure to predict the exact timing of a strategic offensive (as it happened with USSR, France and Poland) leads to an utter disaster in a very short timeframe. So Britain would have to know Germany's dates to actually be able to throw "all remnants" of the air force into battle; otherwise they'd be in a typical state of heightened alert.

I'm not saying Germany's invasion is a success, but I would assume that naval assets would be a much greater hindrance than remaining air force assets. Total attrition of the RAF is not that possible, but total attrition is not necessary to make the air force incapable of serious resistance; the Luftwaffe understood it on their own skin when they lost the trained pilots in a matter of a year - 1943-1944 - and there was no one to replace them with.

Well Overlord was a complete strategic surprise both in terms of the place of the invasion and the timing, the Germans had no significant naval or air assets, the commanding officer was on leave... yet they managed to contain the invasion. Only temporarily that's for sure, but 50 days seems enough to me to somehow intervene in that time window.

[PeZook]

However, that all depends on Britain having strategic advantage, and Germany failing to utilize the surprise factor with the Sea Lion. Considering Germans were pretty damn good at using a surprise strategic offensive, I wouldn't bet on that. A failure to predict the exact timing of a strategic offensive (as it happened with USSR, France and Poland) leads to an utter disaster in a very short timeframe. So Britain would have to know Germany's dates to actually be able to throw "all remnants" of the air force into battle; otherwise they'd be in a typical state of heightened alert.

I'm not saying Germany's invasion is a success, but I would assume that naval assets would be a much greater hindrance than remaining air force assets. Total attrition of the RAF is not that possible, but total attrition is not necessary to make the air force incapable of serious resistance; the Luftwaffe understood it on their own skin when they lost the trained pilots in a matter of a year - 1943-1944 - and there was no one to replace them with.

Yes, German large naval combatants being present would actually be much more troublesome than the Luftwaffe. However, note the following things:

1. The german "invasion fleet" is mostly composed of river barges towed by tugs, moving in collumn. The plans called for this formation to execute a turn, and then immediately after accomplishing that, all units turn again to form a line abreast and move in on the landing. This was to be coordinated by bullhorn.

2. The Channel is a rather tight, shallow body of water, cluttered by invasion assets. There's little space to maneuver large surface warships there without running over your own forces.

3. River barges can be sunk by bow waves of fast warships.

Essentially speaking, even a single destroyer that got anywhere close to the barges could prevent the invasion by messing up the final maneuvers.All it would have to do is sail past the fleet, swamping the barges and shooting up the tugs.

Most likely, far more than a single destroyer would go through. The Royal Navy would also be ready to take major losses.

Now, if they didn't know the invasion was going on, what happens? Well, those barges were to be used for resupply, so they'd be moving back and forth across the channel all the time. Sinking supplies meant for soldiers in Britain would not result in such massive casualties, but is just as good, and any german surface force simply can't stay in the area forever: it would be continously harassed by light craft, and eventually of course just plain crushed by the Home Fleet, at which point...the barge fleet gets annihilated. German economy is crippled. The Wehrmacht loses 9 divisions and their equipment, forever and completely. The Home Fleet is free from threat of the German fleet-in-being (as it is now on the bottom).

Pretty awesome outcome

[Isolder74]

The Germans went so far as to try and build massive gliders(Me 321 Gigant) for trying to drop in Armor Divisions to support a potential invasion. The problem was that the massive things were practically unflyable.

Without some type of heavy transport ship, there was no way that the German Army could get any type of invasion force across the channel. The planned barges were just plain too easy to destroy. It is not a good idea to rely on a transport asset that can move on it's own power. That is just too easy to undermine.

[PeZook]

They did assemble 170 transport ships, but they needed a port to unload. British defenders could simply destroy unloading equipment even if Germans could succesfully seize a port, denying them resupply long enough for the invasion to fail.

[folti78]

You know what I'd love to read?

The story of Sea Lion, as it 'would' have happened had the Germans been fool enough to execute it as planned. All impossibilities (German generals not resigning rather than carrying it out) should be lampshaded, all difficulties illustrated... parachutists landing on golf courses and getting brained by retirees with golf clubs while their pistols are tangled up in their harnesses...

That would make a fun short story.

While it'd be more embarrassing, the most likely outcome will be that everyone with a gun(game wardens, hunters, His Majesty's Loyal Poachers, armed police) going out to hunt them down piecemeal. Which will suck royally because even if they manage to defeat some ragtag bunch of poachers, they still waste precious time and ammo, while British troops are alerted and deployed ...

So in the event of Sea Lion, you'd see the last carefully shepherded remnants of the RAF committed to battle, cruisers and battleships being risked within range of German land-based aviation on the Channel (as never happened historically)...

However, that all depends on Britain having strategic advantage, and Germany failing to utilize the surprise factor with the Sea Lion. Considering Germans were pretty damn good at using a surprise strategic offensive, I wouldn't bet on that. A failure to predict the exact timing of a strategic offensive (as it happened with USSR, France and Poland) leads to an utter disaster in a very short timeframe. So Britain would have to know Germany's dates to actually be able to throw "all remnants" of the air force into battle; otherwise they'd be in a typical state of heightened alert.

I'm not saying Germany's invasion is a success, but I would assume that naval assets would be a much greater hindrance than remaining air force assets.

Absolutely. You're right- but then, note that while Fighter Command would have been utterly ruined by a Luftwaffe victory in the Battle of Britain (due to loss of pilots), Bomber Command would not have been so badly affected- since their forces were being reserved as part of the apparatus of counter-attack, and they wouldn't be in direct combat.

The navy would still be far more significant, but what I'm getting at is that to make the offensive work at all, the Germans would have to do things like lay those minefields- they could achieve strategic surprise in the timing of the operation, but tactically the British would get at least some clue of what was going on. I'm not enough of an expert to say whether they'd learn at H-hour minus 24, or H-12, or H-6, or H-1... but you'd still see an intense naval and hard-fought if weak air counterattack against the landing forces, probably while they were still trying to get ashore.

Also depends how much we assume RAF got massacred before the invasion and how much time it takes. If it isn't sudden, the Navy and Bomber Command will expend resources trying to mine and disable the invasion fleet's French harbors, their own coasts and harbors and work on the fortifications in the UK proper accelerated. If push comes to show the RAF even try to deploy outdated designs flown by old veterans and civilian pilots. While these won't be a match for the LW fighters, they are dangerous to unescorted Stukas and transport planes.

Yes, German large naval combatants being present would actually be much more troublesome than the Luftwaffe. However, note the following things:

1. The german "invasion fleet" is mostly composed of river barges towed by tugs, moving in collumn. The plans called for this formation to execute a turn, and then immediately after accomplishing that, all units turn again to form a line abreast and move in on the landing. This was to be coordinated by bullhorn.

2. The Channel is a rather tight, shallow body of water, cluttered by invasion assets. There's little space to maneuver large surface warships there without running over your own forces.

3. River barges can be sunk by bow waves of fast warships.

Essentially speaking, even a single destroyer that got anywhere close to the barges could prevent the invasion by messing up the final maneuvers.All it would have to do is sail past the fleet, swamping the barges and shooting up the tugs.

Most likely, far more than a single destroyer would go through. The Royal Navy would also be ready to take major losses.

Also the low freeboard of those barges, meant anything that caused a bigger wave (helloooo near misses from bombs and battery shells) could flood them. A good part of them either were non-compartmentalized and/or made of iron instead of steel, which breaks easier in case of impact or shock damage.

[CaptHawkeye]

Any chance of invasion is dashed by the mere existence of the Royal Navy right away. The Luftwaffe didn't even have an aerial torpedo for much of the war and their pilots were not trained in bombing warships so trying to suppress RN activities would be pointless as they were historically.