Magneto Vs. the Emperor

[Havok]

Why wouldn't Sidious just superfast lunge thing he does and stab Magneto before he even knows what is going on? Or for that matter, the Imperial Guard will just blast him. Magneto's first reaction is ALWAYS to stop the bullets, before he takes the weapons. Oops.

[Simon_Jester]

Palpatine hurling senate pods or X-wings or senate-wings or X-pods or whatever pales in comparison to Magnetoid lifting up the Golden Gate Bridge, which is a spherical mass of iron considerably longer than other spherical masses of iron. It's a spherical mass of iron 1 kilometer long! Try vaporizing that packing crate with your NDF chain reactions!

Mang, I've been to San Francisco. It ain't spherical.

Aside from that, hah.

(Though I don't know about the EU, there could be a comic about how some ancient Sith in the 1960s used his TK to hurl a bomber from a dirt runway at triple sonic speeds while drafting up military graphs and intercepting ballistic missiles and breaking helicopter glass canopies while doing so and Force Choking McNamara or something. I will call him Darth Sladius.)

There is a movie about how some ancient Magneto in the 1960s, after he got tired of killing Nazis, used his powers to stop a shitload of supersonic battleship shells and equally supersonic missileoids and possibly nuclear whatchamajiggies in midair. Moreover, he then used his powers even more to take all of those things and turn them around in midair and return to sender all of those shells and missileoids, causing Michael Ironside to get an ohshit look on his face when he realizes his glass bridge window is about to get broken by his own battleship shells and missileoids. And to say "it has been an honor serving with you all!"

Or some such.

I don't think any of the missiles were ballistic. The battleship shells were, though.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Yeah, Palpatine was hucking multi ton senate pods around like boxes of corn flakes. And does "movie Palpatine" take into consideration other Force feats we have seen in Clone Wars and The Clone Wars? They take place before ROTJ and Palpatine would have only become more masterful over his abilities and I would think it is safe and reasonable to assume that anything we see Jedi or other Sith do, Palpatine would also be able to do.

Is it really certain that Palpatine could only have grown more powerful? He certainly looks a lot more like a shrivelled penis covered in flour in RotJ as opposed to the deflating Stay-Puft marshmallow man of RoTS. It's entirely possible that he's actually been more enervated than empowered in the interim.

[Shroom Man 777]

What Magneto can do is irrelevant here. Whoever shoots first wins. And Sidious with precog powers will strike first and crush Magneto himself directly. No need to bother with melodramatic throw stuff at each other telekinetic battles.

Precog might be hampered by the fact that Magneto's unreadable with his packing crate helmet. Isn't that one of the reasons why the Jedi were caught by surprise by Order 66, because the Clones were also hard to read somehow?

Magneto's reaction times, as Simon said, is quick enough to stop supersonic bullets, battleship shells and cruise missiles.

Unfortunately I haven't seen First Class though, goddamn it.

Havokeff:

Magneto can yank the saber off Palpatine's hands, and use it to stab Palps in the face.

Or he can turn the saber on while it's still in Palp's pants, lighting it up, and making Palps scream "Balls!"

[Stark]

What if sabres are non-ferrous? They could be SPACE CERAMIC!

[avatarxprime]

I believe the Order 66 surprise was because there was very little to predict. The Clones were not pre-meditating killing the Jedi, it wasn't until the Order was given that the flip got switched and they took immediate action after that. At least, that's what I had read at some point, but I can't recall where.

[Shroom Man 777]

What if sabres are non-ferrous? They could be SPACE CERAMIC!

Well, articles did say that Palpatoid's saber was made out of something-something alloy, but that's not in the movie. If it's non-metallic, then, well, sucks to be a Magneto. I mean, Palpatine will ruin Magneto's shit with a non-metallic lightsaber same as how a security guard will ruin Magneto's shit with a non-metallic nightstick.

I believe the Order 66 surprise was because there was very little to predict. The Clones were not pre-meditating killing the Jedi, it wasn't until the Order was given that the flip got switched and they took immediate action after that. At least, that's what I had read at some point, but I can't recall where.

That's the point, isn't it? If the Jedi/Sith can't read Magneto's thoughts, they can't see what he's thinking of doing, which is pretty much the same thing.

[avatarxprime]

I believe the Order 66 surprise was because there was very little to predict. The Clones were not pre-meditating killing the Jedi, it wasn't until the Order was given that the flip got switched and they took immediate action after that. At least, that's what I had read at some point, but I can't recall where.

That's the point, isn't it? If the Jedi/Sith can't read Magneto's thoughts, they can't see what he's thinking of doing, which is pretty much the same thing.

Well it's not that they couldn't read the Clones' thoughts, it's that there were no thoughts to begin with. Until Order 66 was given the Clones were as loyal as can be, after, they were on a non-stop mission to exterminate any nearby Jedi. That's different then Magneto, the Jedi might not be able to read his mind, but he's still thinking and planning out his moves and that is what the Jedi pre-cog would be picking up on.

[Stark]

Well, articles did say that Palpatoid's saber was made out of something-something alloy, but that's not in the movie. If it's non-metallic, then, well, sucks to be a Magneto. I mean, Palpatine will ruin Magneto's shit with a non-metallic lightsaber same as how a security guard will ruin Magneto's shit with a non-metallic nightstick.

Aren't magnetic fields involved in the formation of a light sabre? It'd be pretty funny if Magneto could control it.

[Ahriman238]

I read the novelization of RotS. The Jedi could not sense any malice or anger from the clones, which is apparently how they normally sense danger. To the clones it was just another order, another job.

Also, at one point in First Class Erik has Charles hold a gun right up to his forhead so he can prove that he can stop the bullet before it even clears the barrel. CHarles still refused to pull the trigger, but only because it wasn't challenging enough for Erik.

[Havok]

Has anyone considered the fact that the OP just teleported Magneto into the biggest ball of metal in the Star Wars universe?

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, yeah, which is why there was a long-ass argument about whether or not Star Wars metal was REAL metal and if Star Wars metal was affected by magnetism, and some people said that Star Wars metal didn't have minichlorines mutant genes in them so Magneto's powers will be useless. What a bunch of fatties.

[Havok]

Uh, yeah, which is why there was a long-ass argument about whether or not Star Wars metal was REAL metal and if Star Wars metal was affected by magnetism, and some people said that Star Wars metal didn't have minichlorines mutant genes in them so Magneto's powers will be useless. What a bunch of fatties.

Oh, I tend to ignore Alyrial Denryial pretentious prattle. Is that what they were bitching about? I only caught the end.

[Shroom Man 777]

No, it's the other guys who were going on about how Star Wars metaloids might not be real metaloids, not Alyriumoid. Darth Hothoid, I think.

[Lex]

What stops Palpatine from simply making Magneto's heart stop (if its purely movie evidence, Luke does it with two guards in Jabba's palace, no reason Palpatine, who is obviously far more powerful than Luke, could not do it)?

The power to manipulate metal is insignificant to the power of the force

[Shroom Man 777]

The fact that Jedi/Sith aren't as super-fast as some people make them out to be, and Magneto could very well killfuck Palpatine before he could do that?

Palpatine couldn't even use his TK to stop a senate pod from almost crushing his already-ugly face and barely reacted in time to evade it, while Magneto was able to use his powers on salvos of missiles and shells traveling much faster and in considerably more numbers than the senate pods.

[AMT]

Has anyone considered the fact that the OP just teleported Magneto into the biggest ball of metal in the Star Wars universe?

*Raises hand.*

I also pointed out that Palpatines throne room is basically a tall slim tower of metal. With windows. Which ignited the whole "Star Wars metal isn't metal" argument.

[Shroom Man 777]

Which is really fucking stupid and reeks how desperate these guise are when they can't go "he uses force choke to force choke the blood vessels in his brain and kills him in one nanosecond using precog!" or some other lame shit.

You think with all the lame powers they ascribe to Jedi/Sith, Palpatine could've somehow avoided falling to death by, I dunno, flying or using his Force powers to summon telekinetic life-draining bat wings to flap himself away. Hey, that's another thing Magneto can do that Palpatine can't. Fly. Or not-fall-to-death.

Maybe there's a dumb EU story explaining how that bright light show that happened when Palpatine died in ROTJ was actually him teleporting his soul into his clone bodies, XYZ years into the future, through a Force-powered time displacement field that only absorbs living tissue, meaning Palpatine appeared in a different time entirely naked whilst programmed to terminate Luke Skywalker or some shit. Maybe that's how Anakin Skywalker's real dad died, because he was actually Wedge Antilles who was sent through time to save his mom. Sarah Skywalker killed Palpatine in a factory, by turning on the garbage compactor (which is magnetically sealed! ), just as Palpatine was on the verge of Force Choking her. You're terminated, fucker!

[Sarevok]

What Magneto can do is irrelevant here. Whoever shoots first wins. And Sidious with precog powers will strike first and crush Magneto himself directly. No need to bother with melodramatic throw stuff at each other telekinetic battles.

Precog might be hampered by the fact that Magneto's unreadable with his packing crate helmet. Isn't that one of the reasons why the Jedi were caught by surprise by Order 66, because the Clones were also hard to read somehow?

Magneto's reaction times, as Simon said, is quick enough to stop supersonic bullets, battleship shells and cruise missiles.

1. You have to look hard to find incidents where Jedi precognition fails. In general it is good enough for them to deflect blaster fire. Barring will of the Force there is no reason why Darth Sidious would fail to forsee Magneto and react beforehand. Being able to do is kind of his SPECIALITY.

2. There is no reason to believe Magneto can react fast enough to stop bullets rather than his magnetism acting like an area wide effect.

[Crazedwraith]

1. You have to look hard to find incidents where Jedi precognition fails. In general it is good enough for them to deflect blaster fire. Barring will of the Force there is no reason why Darth Sidious would fail to forsee Magneto and react beforehand. Being able to do is kind of his SPECIALITY.

What? How about every prequel movie? And RotJ? Qui-Gon's precog doesn't stop him getting stabbed. It doesn't stop the Jedi being gunned down by Jango and some droids in Episode II and several Jedi fail to realise clone troopers are about to shoot them in the back. And those that do, well it doesn't tell them that there's too much incoming blaster fire to deflect and they should do something else instead.

And it doesn't stop Vader tossing Palpatine down a bottomless bit.

Precog is not an instawin button. For one thing, its always used defensively. It warns of an attack in enough time for the Jedi to defend himself. Its never triggered early enough that the jedi tks a gun man while he's still drawing his blaster.

[Shroom Man 777]

1. It's not good enough for them to avoid getting punched in the face though. Hell, Yoda was able to crawl up (after being Force lightninged) very slowly before using his own powers on Palpatine, and yet Palpatine wasn't able to react and got his ass thrown off his chair despite seeing Yoda coming at him.

We've seen Jedi block blaster bolts, but how fast were those blocked/deflected blaster bolts moving when they were approaching the Jedi?

2. Magneto was able to magnetically fire a gun and then, at the last instant, stop the bullet when it made contact with a person's forehead but still hadn't penetrated his forehead's foreskin. That's not a wide area effect, that's finesse and quickness.

So if Jedi and Sith are not fast enough to avoid getting punched in the face, or getting thrown off railings, or getting shot in the back by Millennium Falcons, or are barely fast enough to react and jump away from Senate pods hurled at them at unimpressive speeds, then I think they're fair game for someone whose powers can work fast enough to stop bullets in mid-flight.

[AMT]

What Magneto can do is irrelevant here. Whoever shoots first wins. And Sidious with precog powers will strike first and crush Magneto himself directly. No need to bother with melodramatic throw stuff at each other telekinetic battles.

Precog might be hampered by the fact that Magneto's unreadable with his packing crate helmet. Isn't that one of the reasons why the Jedi were caught by surprise by Order 66, because the Clones were also hard to read somehow?

Magneto's reaction times, as Simon said, is quick enough to stop supersonic bullets, battleship shells and cruise missiles.

1. You have to look hard to find incidents where Jedi precognition fails. In general it is good enough for them to deflect blaster fire. Barring will of the Force there is no reason why Darth Sidious would fail to forsee Magneto and react beforehand. Being able to do is kind of his SPECIALITY.

2. There is no reason to believe Magneto can react fast enough to stop bullets rather than his magnetism acting like an area wide effect.

Except the part where he fired guns magnetically in X1 point blank and was able to control it to a degree that he stops the bullets before they fire. If he was just using a wide "magnetic effect" then other things would have been effected by it, except the bullets. Yet we don't see anything else metallic reacting to such a wide field. (which would have to be extremely wide since the guns are spaced out across dozens of people in a wide area, not like, a circle around him or anything.

[Simon_Jester]

1. You have to look hard to find incidents where Jedi precognition fails. In general it is good enough for them to deflect blaster fire. Barring will of the Force there is no reason why Darth Sidious would fail to forsee Magneto and react beforehand. Being able to do is kind of his SPECIALITY.

For one, Magneto is coming from outside the universe and attacking him directly- this can easily make it harder for him to be observed from within the Force, depending on how precognition works. He's screened from telepathy- again, this makes it harder, or can/should/easily might make it harder, to predict his moves.

Also, predicting blaster fire only implies that Jedi can perceive the future a few tenths of a second in advance to the desired precision. If they had the level of detailed knowledge of exactly what was happening and exactly how to counter it you imply, their defenses would be much stronger because they would simply not go into certain kinds of dangerous situations. Or they could use exceptionally good precognition to employ scry and die tactics, deducing all an enemy's weaknesses and taking them down easily.

In general, Jedi precognition seems to work along the following lines:

-Short range detailed precognition.
A Jedi can accurately foresee threats to their life, in detail, a fraction of a second or a second in advance. This may or may not give them enough time to save themselves.

-Medium range perception of outlines of events.
A Jedi can 'sense danger' or sense that 'he must confront' something or other, without knowing all the details. This does not always happen- Obi Wan walked right into Jango Fett's trap, and Luke walked right into a fight with Vader on Bespin.

-Long range precognition, limited to visions
A Jedi can get visions of the distant future (days, months, or years from now). But these visions generally aren't under his full control, he doesn't foresee all the details. Anakin saw Padme dying in childbirth, but not why, when presumably he wanted more than anything else in the world to know why so he could prevent the thing from happening in advance. Yoda saw Luke falling to the Dark Side and/or being lost if he went to confront Vader on Bespin, unless he outright lied to Luke: "or you will destroy all that they have fought for." Palpatine saw Vader bringing Luke before him... but did not foresee Luke refusing to turn to him or Vader turning on him. And so on.

You can jump up and down and talk about 'shroud of the Dark Side' or whatever if you like, but this is such a consistent pattern across the six movies that it makes more sense to interpret it as a consistent limit on Jedi abilities than as something that just happened to be a problem each individual separate time the Jedi ever used their powers.

[Shroom Man 777]

And if Magneto throws multiple objects from multiple directions, rapid firing, it'll be bloody hard for Palpatine to react. Like how Jedi can be overwhelmed by droidekas coming in and firing too fast for them to concentrate to TK them or something, or how Palps and Yoda buggered each other by throwing lots of Senate pods, Force users can be squishified just as easily and we've seen Magneto's concentrative and multi-tasking abilities between large area-affecting attacks and micro-tasking small detailed finesse feats, to be all in all superior to observed Jedi TK feats in the movies.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah.

From his past adventures (moving bridges and giant radio telescopes that don't really have the structural strength to be held together without careful support of many points, moving huge numbers of handguns in synchrony, stopping battleship broadsides)... I'd say Movie Magneto would probably be able to stand in the center of the Star Wars Senate, pick up all the pods in the Senate, and just start swirling them around in giant shapes. It's kind of ridiculous how much power they give him credit for.