Star Trek and Genetic Engineering

[Setzer]

If you're required to make the tiniest bit of effort, it's not part of the plan.

[Batman]

Err-I'm afraid the only ones who actually know what is and isn't part of the plan are the people who, you know, came up with it.

[Setzer]

How do you know? We never met the people who made this plan. We have no idea what the consequences of intervening could be. So clearly the only ethical thing to do is let outsiders suffer and die while I'm stuffing my face at the replicator and using the Holodeck to act out my masturbatory fantasies. That's how a truly evolved individual would behave.

[TOSDOC]

Yes, Batman, I'm well aware of the Beowulf Protocols and their stipulations on not improving the species but only curing illnesses. Hell, Harrington's own mother even refused to keep her daughter a test-tube baby despite all the difficulties of the pregnancy! I was simply commenting on how they had taken it further than Trek had in colonization efforts--if a colony would be better suited to living comfortably on a new world through gene therapy, isn't that as worthy a cause as curing illnesses?

[neoolong]

Doesn't Dr. Crusher alter Lt. Barclay's genes in Genesis in order to cure him of a disease? It would seem that not all genetic engineering is outlawed.

[TOSDOC]

Doesn't Dr. Crusher alter Lt. Barclay's genes in Genesis in order to cure him of a disease? It would seem that not all genetic engineering is outlawed.

I thought she only designed a new immune cell to kill his disease, and that was what activated all his introns to alter his genes and turn him into spider-man.

[Batman]

How do you know? We never met the people who made this plan. We have no idea what the consequences of intervening could be. So clearly the only ethical thing to do is let outsiders suffer and die while I'm stuffing my face at the replicator and using the Holodeck to act out my masturbatory fantasies. That's how a truly evolved individual would behave.

Sorry. Missed the sarcasm first go. I was about to argue how given we have no clue what the plan is we might as well do the right thing before I realized you were talking about the apparent approach the TNG UFP is taking.

[Batman]

Yes, Batman, I'm well aware of the Beowulf Protocols and their stipulations on not improving the species but only curing illnesses. Hell, Harrington's own mother even refused to keep her daughter a test-tube baby despite all the difficulties of the pregnancy! I was simply commenting on how they had taken it further than Trek had in colonization efforts--if a colony would be better suited to living comfortably on a new world through gene therapy, isn't that as worthy a cause as curing illnesses?

No need to in the Trek universe-there's so many Class M planets in the galaxy and the Federation is so tiny that they can apparently pick and choose the ones with roughly 1g of surface gravity and near-terran climates
You never mentioned you knew that the Honorverse has its own version of the Eugenic Wars and resulting anti-genie sentiments so I just thought I'd point them out.

[TOSDOC]

Yes, Batman, I'm well aware of the Beowulf Protocols and their stipulations on not improving the species but only curing illnesses. Hell, Harrington's own mother even refused to keep her daughter a test-tube baby despite all the difficulties of the pregnancy! I was simply commenting on how they had taken it further than Trek had in colonization efforts--if a colony would be better suited to living comfortably on a new world through gene therapy, isn't that as worthy a cause as curing illnesses?

No need to in the Trek universe-there's so many Class M planets in the galaxy and the Federation is so tiny that they can apparently pick and choose the ones with roughly 1g of surface gravity and near-terran climates
You never mentioned you knew that the Honorverse has its own version of the Eugenic Wars and resulting anti-genie sentiments so I just thought I'd point them out.

Oh, OK, I thought you were just driving up and down my apartment walls in the Batmobile again.

That Class M planet thing was just another brain bug in my mind--I know it's hard to do on TV, but I think Harrington had a more interesting take on solving the problem of adapting to different colony worlds.

[Batman]

You're going to keep using that aren't you.

The Honorverse, by virtue of being print, has the advantage of being able to do non-M class planets thanks to an essentially unlimited special effects budget so it's naturally more flexible in what needs to be done to adapt people to live there.

[TOSDOC]

You're going to keep using that aren't you.

The Honorverse, by virtue of being print, has the advantage of being able to do non-M class planets thanks to an essentially unlimited special effects budget so it's naturally more flexible in what needs to be done to adapt people to live there.

I just wanted to use it once.

So what do you think--is it ok to adapt humans by gene therapy to live on a different gravity/biochemistry world and eat it's food, or is that falling too much under Eugenics? Oh, here's a thought--is he/she even a human anymore if they can only eat the colony world's new diet and was too adapted to go back to Earth?

[bilateralrope]

Doesn't Dr. Crusher alter Lt. Barclay's genes in Genesis in order to cure him of a disease? It would seem that not all genetic engineering is outlawed.

With that episode had the genetic engineering going wrong, it makes me wonder if the Federation has got into a cycle of:
- Genetic engineering is banned because it went horribly wrong.
- Thus the only places that do it are criminal places.
- Successes are hushed up because those involved don't want to be caught. So most people only knows of the failures.
- Because every incident of genetic engineering they know about is a failure, they keep it banned.

[Batman]

You're going to keep using that aren't you.
The Honorverse, by virtue of being print, has the advantage of being able to do non-M class planets thanks to an essentially unlimited special effects budget so it's naturally more flexible in what needs to be done to adapt people to live there.

I just wanted to use it once.
So what do you think--is it ok to adapt humans by gene therapy to live on a different gravity/biochemistry world and eat it's food, or is that falling too much under Eugenics?

That depends entirely on the results. For the Honorverse, it seems to have worked out favourably. And even then, the Honorverse seems to be much more likely to tell the alien biosphere to get lost and introduce crops ordinary humans can live on.

[montypython]

How do you know? We never met the people who made this plan. We have no idea what the consequences of intervening could be. So clearly the only ethical thing to do is let outsiders suffer and die while I'm stuffing my face at the replicator and using the Holodeck to act out my masturbatory fantasies. That's how a truly evolved individual would behave.

There are also costs for not intervening either, so that's not an excuse to simply say 'we won't do anything because we don't know', otherwise all sorts of things shouldn't be bothered acting on because the outcomes are uncertain.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Doesn't Dr. Crusher alter Lt. Barclay's genes in Genesis in order to cure him of a disease? It would seem that not all genetic engineering is outlawed.

With that episode had the genetic engineering going wrong, it makes me wonder if the Federation has got into a cycle of:
- Genetic engineering is banned because it went horribly wrong.
- Thus the only places that do it are criminal places.
- Successes are hushed up because those involved don't want to be caught. So most people only knows of the failures.
- Because every incident of genetic engineering they know about is a failure, they keep it banned.

I think this is pretty much it.

I can offer a possible explanation for why Khan and his ilk turned out nutters: They knew from the outset they were different, physically better than other children. That's gonna make them pretty messed up anyway. And if their creators looked upon them with pride, then it's likely little kiddie Khan gets the idea "well, the adults think I'm amazing, and I'm better than those other kids. Therefore, those other kids are inferior and those adults agree with me. I'm right and their rubbish." And so on.

As for the ban, as that VOY episode shows it's a slippery slope. "Well, I'll have my babies genetic illness fixed. Hmmm...while I'm at it i'll get rid of genes leaving them susceptible to a weak heart, or obesity and so on...I want my kid to survive, so he'll have to be strong...." and so on. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions after all.

Oh, and just to be nitpicky, Purple, in STIV, the Captain of the USS Saratoga reports that the alien probe is on a direct course for the Terran Solar System

[Terralthra]

As exhibit A to this option I present Julian Bashir from DS9 who was augmented by his father and it was viewed as a crime so awful that Julian lived in fear and shame and his father ended up in jail. But why? Look at Julian. Is he a madman? Did he try to conquer the Alpha Quadrant? Why would the Federation withhold such augmentation from all its citizens to lift up the species as a whole?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Julian Bashir is not the only example in the 24th Century, and to use him as the sole data point in your argument is pretty cherry-picked evidence.

For one, there're the other four genetically engineered enhanced humans from DS9. Patrick, Jack, Sarina, and Lauren, from Statistical Probabilities and Chrysalis. All have severe personality disorders, are highly intelligent and capable, and the hubris of even the four of them is remarkable, as the episode shows.

So that's 4 drastic failures to produce a stable enhanced human compared with one (relative) success (remember, Bashir had his own issues with arrogance, especially once he no longer had to conceal his enhanced status). The episode explains, as another poster does, that the physicians who performed the quartets' enhancements weren't skilled enough to do it very well, with the resulting instability; however, Bashir specifically refers to himself as being lucky in that he is stable despite being enhanced, rather than him being the norm and the quartet being unlucky.

Still, one might argue based on this that if the Federation allowed genetic engineering to be practiced by aboveboard physicians skilled in their trade, it would get more consistent, stable results.

I respond: it did, in TNG's Unnatural Selection. Genetic engineering, condoned by the Federation, produced a bunch of enhanced humans with telekinesis, advanced intelligence, perfect physical condition....and as a side-effect, produced a disease that killed any baseline human exposed to them. Whoops. Clearly the Federation flirted with relaxing the ban on genetic engineering, only to have it bite them on the ass again.

This ignores the central issue with genetic engineering, which is: once you allow some people to be enhanced, how long before all parents feel they must enhance their children so they can compete? If the odds of a Bashir are 1 in 5, those are pretty shitty odds, especially since by default, the parents are the one making the decision, but the children are the ones taking the 80% risk of severe personality disorder. Even if the odds of a Bashir are 99 out of 100, with the aforementioned pressure to enhance children to be able to compete, that's 1 out of every 100 children being afflicted with crippling mental illness just in the hopes of "keeping up," and there's no evidence for odds that low.

Remember, Bashir was ridiculously competent. He had to deliberately flub a question on the Starfleet medical exam so he didn't get a perfect score. He produced a vaccine for an engineered biological warfare disease in weeks. This disease made by the Dominion, people who engineered a race to be the perfect flunky, for no reason other than that they could. He hit a triple bullseye in a game of darts casually.

The pressure to enhance your children just to have a chance at competing with him for work would be immense. That's why Starfleet banned any genetically enhanced person from service: specifically to prevent that competitive pressure from fueling more enhancement, and enhancement-linked derangement.

[dworkin]

The Victorians exploited the rest of the world for all they could grab and they only 'thought' they were superior. While it helped that they had warships, rifles and machine-guns and almost everybody else had pointy sticks, that was not the reason they told themselves. The White Man and the English Man in particular was mentally, morally and socially superior to any 'brown person' or woman.

Now imagine augments. They 'are' superior.

[Ahriman238]

I believe in the Enterprise episodes with the Augments they were said to be more aggressive, as part of their enhancements. Hence, when dr. Soong saved some Augments and took them to a planet where they could live in secrecy, they were not content to stay in hiding.

One really has to wonder who was designing the genome for the Augments and said "Okay, they're smart, good. They're a lot faster and stronger, that's better. Now, what am I missing? What do they really need to be successful in a world that will fear and distrust them? Oh, that's right! The inability to control their own temper! Hey, is there a gene for being so overconfidant you literally cannot conceive of an unenhanced man being a threat, even if he's pointing a gun at you, and just blew your kneecaps off? Nevermind! We'll make sure they learn that."

The other enchanced men from DS9 did not impress me, since they decided to betray the Federation to the Dominon, deciding the Federation was doomed and the only way to minimize human casulties was to help the bad guys. Then when Bashir points out their plan's insanity is matched only by it's insane arrogance, and they are not gods to decide life or death on the scale of billions, the one says "No, we're the next best thing.(to Gods)"

[Skylon]

I can offer a possible explanation for why Khan and his ilk turned out nutters: They knew from the outset they were different, physically better than other children. That's gonna make them pretty messed up anyway. And if their creators looked upon them with pride, then it's likely little kiddie Khan gets the idea "well, the adults think I'm amazing, and I'm better than those other kids. Therefore, those other kids are inferior and those adults agree with me. I'm right and their rubbish." And so on.

That's essentially what TOS went with. "Superior ability breeds superior ambition" was Spock's line. Unless you are raised by Jonathan Kent, if you are stronger, faster and smarter than other people, you will think you are better, and more well suited than everyone else to run the world.

Further, the augments weren't exactly super villain-esque psychos. Kirk and company describe Khan's reign as something akin to an enlightened despot. There was little freedom under his rule, but he wasn't a genocidal madman. I wouldn't call them nutters. The Khan of "Space Seed" is a lot different than the one in ST 2, understandably so considering what happened in between his appearances.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The key thing I think is that they weren't just raised knowing they were superior to other children, it's that their superiority was validated (and presumably even encouraged) by their "creators." There's a big difference between thinking "I'm better than little Johnny over there" to "I think I'm better than him, and these adults say so as well!"

[montypython]

I can offer a possible explanation for why Khan and his ilk turned out nutters: They knew from the outset they were different, physically better than other children. That's gonna make them pretty messed up anyway. And if their creators looked upon them with pride, then it's likely little kiddie Khan gets the idea "well, the adults think I'm amazing, and I'm better than those other kids. Therefore, those other kids are inferior and those adults agree with me. I'm right and their rubbish." And so on.

That's essentially what TOS went with. "Superior ability breeds superior ambition" was Spock's line. Unless you are raised by Jonathan Kent, if you are stronger, faster and smarter than other people, you will think you are better, and more well suited than everyone else to run the world.

Further, the augments weren't exactly super villain-esque psychos. Kirk and company describe Khan's reign as something akin to an enlightened despot. There was little freedom under his rule, but he wasn't a genocidal madman. I wouldn't call them nutters. The Khan of "Space Seed" is a lot different than the one in ST 2, understandably so considering what happened in between his appearances.

I don't know why they keep bringing up the whole 'superior ability breeds superior ambition' canard when real life has tons of examples of talented people without ambition or ambitious people without talent, these things aren't really directly connected with each other.

[Eternal_Freedom]

You're right, but the difference between real-world people and Khan is that Khan and his ilk weren't born, they were made. They were presumably raised from the get-go that they were superior and they had the physical and mental abilities to prove it.

I doubt most very talented people in RL were raised by people telling them "you are superior to everyone else/you're the future of humanity/the next stage in our development" or whateve,r insert cliche here.

[montypython]

You're right, but the difference between real-world people and Khan is that Khan and his ilk weren't born, they were made. They were presumably raised from the get-go that they were superior and they had the physical and mental abilities to prove it.

I doubt most very talented people in RL were raised by people telling them "you are superior to everyone else/you're the future of humanity/the next stage in our development" or whateve,r insert cliche here.

Another thing is that all the vices used as rationales against genetic engineering for instance are also all present in stories such as the Battletech franchise and had nothing to do with genetic engineering of people or raising people to feel superior (excluding the Clans), if anything social context was a more important factor, for even in Trek many colonies with genetic engineered humans are no less viable than any other (e.g., Masterpiece Society).