Fear and Loathing of the Yellow Peril.

[madd0ct0r]

I frequent a number of forums, one of which is the center for home made model toys.
One member has a real hatred on for manufacturing in China or nearby, so I asked him about it:

Long Answer:

Outsourcing to Asia has created a net loss of manufacturing jobs in the West. It has also caused a net loss in motivation in the West to design new products and learn manufacturing technical skills. This combined with other negative social issues and movenments has diminished the growth and power of the society I happened to be born in. The same society my children live in (which is the only reason I care about it).

Manufacturing adds value to raw material through labor and technology, that is what creates wealth.

If you send all the wealth past generations 'earned' to pay for goods manufactured elsewhere eventually ones society will become poor and lack the skilled labor, technology, and innovation to create new wealth.

Wealth is power, it buys loyalty, fancy raw material, fancy schools, research, and shinny zoom zoom things that kill and control. I personally rather not have Asian bombers/missiles/satellites/lunar based railguns, etc. shooting at my UNEMPLOYED, LOW SKILLED, POOR CHILDREN.

All the above issues/problems are exasperated by trading with countries/nation states that exploit labor, buy raw material in bulk and distribute it to politically 'authorized' manufactures (in essence subsidizing), subsidize food, housing, and education for favored population groups so they can work' cheap', and learn skills, etc.

And let's not forget engage in IP THEFT (why should I invent/design something if an Asian factory is just going to steal my design and profit from it so they can build an aircraft carrier/balistic missile/lunar based rail gun/large number of ground troops, etc.)

Other than providing one or two generations in the West with cheap consumer goods (soon to end up in land fills) and making unearned and unsustainable profits for the multinational corporations, none of the above provides a lasting or geopolitical benefit for the West (where I am from).

Short Answer:

I'm not a globalist, I'm more of a nationalist, guess I'd make a good Asian. ;D

P.S. I have nothing against Asian manufacturing, just wish they'd stop stealing IP, compete by offering original products and innovation, rather than by playing currency games and exploiting low paid workers.

followed by a second message:

Just some more reasons I dislike (all) outsourcing to countries that just offer cheap labor and no repect for IP:

1) The more people in my country that can't earn enough money due to no job/low wage job, the more deflationary pressure on housing prices, etc.
This makes investments in real property in my country worth less, so again, less wealth for my country.

2) People in my country pay taxes based upon income, the less they make the less taxes they pay.
The corporations that benefit from the outsourcing are notorious for paying very little in taxes, they also buy off the government officials in the USA, which is why this situation has gotten so out of control. Good for 'Asia' bad for the 'West'. The less taxes paid, the less services my government provides, the more money it borrows, the more sovereignty it gives up to the borrowers, including the enemy states of China and various Arab oil baronies.
This causes my currency to depreciate. Never enough to stop the cheap labor benefit of Asian exporters, but it allows the West to export food and raw materials, making my cost of living rise. I need food more than an I-Pad II made in China.

3) The more countries, such as China, Vietnam, India, and Indonesia are viewed as 'growth markets', the more wealth investment they attract, the more raw materials they consume. This just means less investment and higher priced raw material for my country. Since little to no consumer goods (labor intensive, job creating) are made in the USA, even if the above mentioned nations develope a consumer class they won't be buying valued added (consumer) goods from my country.
All of this is a win for the East and a loss for the West, good for you, not so great for me or mine. Certainly nothing I support or want.
The promotion of these policies just mean less for my people, so don't expect me to be overjoyed at my peoples foolishness.
Furthermore, more consumers means the world will go through it's limited resources faster.
Wars will break out over the resources.
Countries with manufacturing capacity, quality populations, and technology will win these wars.
Again, I care more about my nations situation than others, as I'm sure citizens of other States think.

I hope this all clarifies why I'm not thrilled about 'outsourcing'.
How I see it, it's treaturous behavior on the part of my countries ruling class that will lead to the destruction of the West.

If the East is unable to innovate or create anything on it's own it will mean the destruction of the entire civilization.

Take care

I thought about how to reply for a week, but gave up.

How do you deal with that level of fear and irrationality?

[Tritio]

Raaah! We're Asians and we're going to eat you up! Well, what can you do against irrational human fear of external threats, real or imagined?

Alternatively, do a Russel Peters. *Funny Fake Chinese Accent* "Your mother is so fat, that when she jump for joyyy... She got stuck!"

[Zaune]

Outsourcing to Asia has created a net loss of manufacturing jobs in the West. It has also caused a net loss in motivation in the West to design new products and learn manufacturing technical skills.
[...]
Manufacturing adds value to raw material through labor and technology, that is what creates wealth.

I can kind of see where he's coming from here; Britain's economy certainly wouldn't be so far up shit creek if we hadn't made a conscious decision to rely on the import and export of abstract concepts instead of, you know, stuff.

But the rest of the post makes it spectacularly obvious that its author is thinking words like "gook" or "Chink" but hasn't got the balls to say them out loud. Arguing with an irrational fear/hatred of coloured people is occasionally amusing but a complete waste of time.

[DudeGuyMan]

It seemed like a relatively level-headed (by internet standards) case of him wanting the country he lives in to stay on top of the heap, for the most part. It only got really weird with that bit at the very end about Asians not innovating and civilization being destroyed.

[spaceviking]

Actually the last part sounds a good deal like Hitler's writings on the Japanese.

[mr friendly guy]

This guy seems to think China can just copy complex technology like an aircraft carrier/balistic missile/lunar based rail gun just like that. Man doesn't China wish it had that type of magical power.

[Crown]

This guy seems to think China can just copy complex technology like an aircraft carrier/balistic missile/lunar based rail gun just like that. Man doesn't China wish it had that type of magical power.

Leaving aside how this guy goes off the rails later on in his diatribe, the basic premise of if you continue to export your technical manufacturing jobs, you're gonna eventually lose any competency in them is actually quite sound. As your point alludes; these proficiencies aren't developed overnight and won't be lost over night, but if they start to erode, it's hard as hell to build them back up.

Mind you, as someone who works in the highly technical side of manufacturing, it's a subject close to my heart (and well wallet, lol).

[mr friendly guy]

True, however I was focussing on the part of his rant regarding IP theft. Even if you had the plans of an aircraft carrier and even a nearly completed hull, its not that easy for China to just copy it the same way they can mass produced some more smaller tech. I give the example of the Varyag and how long it took them to learn things to get it in working order. He seems to think it will be almost as easy to copy a piece of high tech machinery as it is to copy a low tech one.

[madd0ct0r]

i read it as they copy the easy stuff, get rich and use the money to develop LASERS!

He seems to see trade as zero-sum, and that any nation powerful enough will go stomping about like a giant toddler.
I fundamentally disagree with his nationalism, and could possibly attempt an argument on the economics side of it but what really get's me is that he blames asia for taking advantage of poor management of the USA.

Why not just complain about the management?

I started writing a reply based on examples from Germany and how Honda withstood cheap chinese motorbikes invading the Vietnamese market. Basically USA manufacturing has to raise it's game. But I never finished it since it didn't feel like an argument that could end amicably, and I don't go there to argue.
I come here

[SpaceMarine93]

I have a suggestion on how to reply. Just remind him that the level of irrationality and hatred he's spilling, regardless of how he thinks about them, is exactly the reason why everyone thinks these 'nationalists' are a bunch of racialist, fascistic closed-minded clouts who would never be listened to, regardless of how convincing his arguments would be. Add that problems are usually never as bad as it is, much like how they never seemed to be as good as it gets.

[SpaceMarine93]

Besides, this is practically an inevitable trend brought on by various massive social-economic shifts and changes that occur on a global scale over the last 50 years. Not even the most power men on Earth could do anything to stop this. No one knows exactly where all the chess pieces are moving and where all the directions are, much like how we cannot predict the invisible hand of the market. And even if they did stop it, its going to be too late anyways. So what's the point of panicking?

More likely they should be trying to find ways to immigrate to other countries, to where the outsourcing jobs go to and find work there instead. Because no force in the world can stop such trends.

You tell me, has anyone been able to prevent a Tidal Wave? That's how hard it is. One paranoid little man screaming about his country losing jobs and getting poorer are ultimately insignificant in the great scheme of things. Tell him that and leave him to his own despair.

By the way, which thread are you debating him on?

[madd0ct0r]

I'm not debating him. we both go to the same place for cool toys and painting tricks. I just asked him why he kept muttering about china in posts on production.

[Thanas]

So why bring it up here? Generally we do not care about stuff being said on other boards and if this was just some "LOL, look at how dumb guy x is", we could do well without those as well.

I am not sure what your intentions were with that. Not accusing you of any nefarious stuff, but I just don't get what your goal is.

[Winston Blake]

How do you deal with that level of fear and irrationality?

I see loads of fear. I don't see a whole lot of irrationality. Well, except for the stuff about lunar based rail guns and the destruction of Western civilisation. Apart from that stuff the core idea he's trying to express isn't really irrational.

As for 'how to deal with it', I would deal with it the same way you did - with no reply.

i read it as they copy the easy stuff, get rich and use the money to develop LASERS!

I agree, he expressed fear about IP infringement of ordinary stuff resulting in high profits which are then used on a higher level for military funding. Which is then used to... er... shoot at his children in the grim darkness of the far future (tm).

I fundamentally disagree with his nationalism, and could possibly attempt an argument on the economics side of it but what really get's me is that he blames asia for taking advantage of poor management of the USA.

Why not just complain about the management?

But he does. If you look at it closely, both sections open with a complaint about 'outsourcing', and the second goes off at corporations who outsource, before ending with a shot at 'these policies':

The promotion of these policies just mean less for my people, so don't expect me to be overjoyed at my peoples foolishness. [Bolding mine]

P.S. I have nothing against Asian manufacturing, just wish they'd stop stealing IP, compete by offering original products and innovation, rather than by playing currency games and exploiting low paid workers.

Further I don't think he's actually complaining about Big Bad Monolithic Asia itself, in the present. He goes off the rails toward the end regarding future resource wars, but that's not the same as railing against the Yellow Peril in the present.

Good management genuinely does make a country more likely to succeed at future warfare (and everything else). China is on a pretty good path to surviving future economic hardships, with a big nuclear program, importing ores while conserving their own reserves, putting a big emphasis on education and manufacturing, etc. My country could take a page from their book.

[madd0ct0r]

So why bring it up here? Generally we do not care about stuff being said on other boards and if this was just some "LOL, look at how dumb guy x is", we could do well without those as well.

I am not sure what your intentions were with that. Not accusing you of any nefarious stuff, but I just don't get what your goal is.

well, 'mockery of stupid people' is in the forum mandate still but I didn't post it to mock.

I just wanted a sense check - it's a viewpoint so diametrically opposed to mine that I find it hard to wrap my head around - 'My country first. Might makes right. there's nothing intrinsically wrong with bullying other's, just make sure it doesn't happen to you.'

As winston and others have said, there's a core of rationality in it. that's why I wanted a sense check.

[aieeegrunt]

The really sad thing is that there is a nugget of a good point in that diatribe; we have systematically cannibalized and outsourced the real sources of wealth production (making shit) in favour of short term profits. We papered over the non-real wealth creating issue by financial trickery and bottomless credit, and now the bills are coming due.

[Big Orange]

OK, there's an endearing story that came up where Chinese entrepreneurs slavishly copied Apple Stores in their homeland and on another forum here's what a militant racist there had to say about that:

I genuinely believe that they are not capable of innovation. It could be a cultural problem, but it could even be genetic: for thousands of years their "tall poppies" have been culled by a feudal system which kept people in their place. Although the Chinese are clever they have inadvertently bred innovation out of their makeup.

I have worked with Chinese engineers on joint projects. In junior positions they listen and obey but don't chip in with their own ideas; in senior positions they resent any idea they didn't have themselves. And I'm talking American-Chinese here, born and bred. In exactly the same meeting the Chinese will throw a strop if their proposals are in any way challenged and a European-American boss will say, "You're a genius! That idea is so good I'm going to write my name at the top." (Tongue-in-cheek the one time it was said to me.)

Link

What a daft thing to say and mirrors what the other chump said about "the East" dooming the world by having no original thinking and lacking in invention; other poorer Western countries and Japan went through a phase of copying products from European nations that were at the cutting edge, and of course developing China is going through the same phase of aping what other countries have done that work well.

[Lusankya]

People who rant about the Chinese having never invented anything are hilarious in their implicit admission that they have never picked up a book in their lives (books being made from paper and the printing press - both Chinese inventions).

Also, these days Chinese knockoffs do actually contain new features. If I want to get a phone with dual sim card slots, for example, (really useful if you live in a country where you get charged roaming fees for receiving phone calls in other provinces or if you go overseas a lot), then you pretty much have to buy a knockoff.

[mr friendly guy]

Well if you believe American reports on the Chinese military, they are supposed to have come up with the first Anti-ship ballistic missile. I am sure one of the more knowledgeable board members will correct me before too long, but I understand the Soviets tried building one and failed and the US prefered cruise missiles for their anti ship duties.

Of course I am more interested in the "straddling bus" concept they got going on coming to Beijing later this year, which is an original invention.

Time magazine. Note the Time article might be a bit outdated as the more recent article from the March/April 2011 edition of science illustrated, states the bus is coming to Beijing this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv8_W2PA0rQ

The youtube video for anyone who can watch it, which unfortunately rules out Lusy because of the great firewall.

[JointStrikeFighter]

US ships rock anti ballistic missiles (SM-3) as standard so DF-21 probably isn't that bigger threat.

[mr friendly guy]

Oh I doubt its a game changer. I am just using it as an example of new things the Chinese invented recently.

[folti78]

Also, these days Chinese knockoffs do actually contain new features. If I want to get a phone with dual sim card slots, for example, (really useful if you live in a country where you get charged roaming fees for receiving phone calls in other provinces or if you go overseas a lot), then you pretty much have to buy a knockoff.

Some people buy them, so they don't have to lug around multiple phones (private and business one in case their job comes with one and it's not a blackberry).

Also Huawei's offering in the telco and networking sectors are now far from their origin of cheap knockoff of western hardware.