Why does the SW vs ST debate still exist?

[Batman]

I'm sorry, you said we've never seen that kind of firepower used, and we definitely did If you meant we never saw that kind of firepower out of a Star Destroyer, you should've said so. And yes, that was a nitpick.

Ah yes I should have been more specific with my wording then

The same ones I already mentioned, perhaps? You know, wear and tear, consumables usage, that kind of thing?

That's true I suppose

Suppose my kevlar clad behind. You're asked to do a job, you use as much force as needed and no more (well unless you're a madcap villain who likes to go overboard but I think we can agree that the average ISD captain is not).

Err yes they have. Nevermind downscaling from the DS1 (which gets you massively higher firepower-as in orders of magnitude higher-than the ICS/CCS state), both the ISD reactor power and ability to direct 'most' of its output to weapons are canon. Which, I'd like to remind you, I already mentioned.

The question is could they actually use that amount of power without all their guns suddenly exploding?

As those guns are presumably designed for that, yes?

Considering that they ordinarily dole out firepower in the high megatons-low gigatons, wouldn't that kind of energy direction be like trying to channel a city's power grid through a lightbulb?

See above. There's little point in designing your power grid to be able to funnel 10/20/50 percent of available power into your guns if they explode upon receiving it.

[the atom]

Not exploding literally but chances are that sudden, massive power input would probably short out the guns, or at least cause some damage. All I'm saying is that that there's probably a good reason we never see them use that type of power output. Ever.

[Azron_Stoma]

Not exploding literally but chances are that sudden, massive power input would probably short out the guns, or at least cause some damage. All I'm saying is that that there's probably a good reason we never see them use that type of power output. Ever.

We know they are capable of it, it might take time to ramp up to that level of power, and/or might be only sustainable for a relatively short period of time. Which honestly, is good enough reason to me.

[the atom]

Not really. They've had plenty of excuses to use that type of firepower before, like during a BDZ or when they were losing at Endor (which bothers me the most). Why didn't the Imperial Captains just say "Full power the turbolasers! MAXIMUM FUCK" and blow half the Rebel fleet into pieces?

[Whiskey144]

Not really. They've had plenty of excuses to use that type of firepower before, like during a BDZ or when they were losing at Endor (which bothers me the most). Why didn't the Imperial Captains just say "Full power the turbolasers! MAXIMUM FUCK" and blow half the Rebel fleet into pieces?

The aforementioned recoil issues, as well as not being able to use such yields for extended firing durations, might be the reason. I personally consider it to be a problem of recoil; even at moderate ship-to-ship settings, heavy turbolaser cannons have gigaton-range recoil energies.

Say recoil energy is 1 gigaton, and shot energy is 15 gigatons. That's a 1:15 ratio of recoil:shot energy.

Now scale it up to teraton range. Shot energy of, say, 5.8 teratons (10% of total ISD1 reactor power), generates about 390 gigatons worth of recoil energy.

That's three hundred ninety times the recoil energy at our supposed nominal ship-to-ship settings. See why they might not use full-power settings now?

[the atom]

Not really. They've had plenty of excuses to use that type of firepower before, like during a BDZ or when they were losing at Endor (which bothers me the most). Why didn't the Imperial Captains just say "Full power the turbolasers! MAXIMUM FUCK" and blow half the Rebel fleet into pieces?

The aforementioned recoil issues, as well as not being able to use such yields for extended firing durations, might be the reason. I personally consider it to be a problem of recoil; even at moderate ship-to-ship settings, heavy turbolaser cannons have gigaton-range recoil energies.

Say recoil energy is 1 gigaton, and shot energy is 15 gigatons. That's a 1:15 ratio of recoil:shot energy.

Now scale it up to teraton range. Shot energy of, say, 5.8 teratons (10% of total ISD1 reactor power), generates about 390 gigatons worth of recoil energy.

That's three hundred ninety times the recoil energy at our supposed nominal ship-to-ship settings. See why they might not use full-power settings now?

Those are all good reason reasons why they wouldn't use that type of firepower in standard combat. Not a losing situation where the Empire is in the balance. If they'd put their ships into maximum firepower they would have won handily.

[Whiskey144]

Those are all good reason reasons why they wouldn't use that type of firepower in standard combat. Not a losing situation where the Empire is in the balance. If they'd put their ships into maximum firepower they would have won handily.

Ah, but Palpatine's arrogance played an immense role in the Battle of Endor. The Imperials had total military superiority, but, much like American fighters in Vietnam, were shackled by rules of engagement.

Palpatine's goal was to make the battle a demonstration of Imperial superiority, and to convert Luke to the Dark Side so that he would replace Vader as his apprentice.

[the atom]

Ah, but Palpatine's arrogance played an immense role in the Battle of Endor. The Imperials had total military superiority, but, much like American fighters in Vietnam, were shackled by rules of engagement.

Palpatine's goal was to make the battle a demonstration of Imperial superiority, and to convert Luke to the Dark Side so that he would replace Vader as his apprentice.

Which they would have accomplished by blowing the Rebel fleet into atoms. What are the rules of engagement in SW and why would that violate them?

[Ahriman238]

The "rules of engagement" in this case aren't a nebulous code of war, but a direct order from the Emperor that the fleet was only to defend themselves and prevent the rebels from escaping. He ordered this so he could massacre the rebel fleet with the Death Star with proves... something. I guess.

[the atom]

The "rules of engagement" in this case aren't a nebulous code of war, but a direct order from the Emperor that the fleet was only to defend themselves and prevent the rebels from escaping. He ordered this so he could massacre the rebel fleet with the Death Star with proves... something. I guess.

Even though it was only fired once? Was he hoping that one shot would wipe them out? Besides, that plan clearly wasn't working once that Imperial fleet started losing.

[Whiskey144]

Even though it was only fired once? Was he hoping that one shot would wipe them out? Besides, that plan clearly wasn't working once that Imperial fleet started losing.

While I don't really remember much of the engagement in question (I saw ROTJ, what, once? when I was about 6 or 7 years old. So about 11 or 12 years ago now), I'm pretty sure the DS2 fired a couple of times.

Besides, the lack of DS2 superlaser fire was mainly due to the Rebel capitals intermixing with the Imperial fleet at extreme close quarters. Firing the DS2 would mean that it was fragging Imperial capitals along with Rebel scum.

That said......AFAIK, the battle was a very close-run engagement. Were it not for the shackling of the Imperials, and the loss of the command ship Executor (I've always had the impression/gut feeling that the Galactic Empire is very Soviet in command organization; someone correct me if that's wrong though), then it's more than likely that the Rebels would have lost and been annihilated.

[the atom]

While I don't really remember much of the engagement in question (I saw ROTJ, what, once? when I was about 6 or 7 years old. So about 11 or 12 years ago now), I'm pretty sure the DS2 fired a couple of times.

I've seen it recently and it did indeed only fire once.

Besides, the lack of DS2 superlaser fire was mainly due to the Rebel capitals intermixing with the Imperial fleet at extreme close quarters. Firing the DS2 would mean that it was fragging Imperial capitals along with Rebel scum.

Then why did they let that happen? If they were capable of doing so they, they would have gone "oh shit this plan isn't gonna work. Blow them away"

That said......AFAIK, the battle was a very close-run engagement. Were it not for the shackling of the Imperials, and the loss of the command ship Executor (I've always had the impression/gut feeling that the Galactic Empire is very Soviet in command organization; someone correct me if that's wrong though), then it's more than likely that the Rebels would have lost and been annihilated.

It is indeed a very top-down type of infrastructure, but that doesn't stop starship captains from have an initiative of their own. Especially when they are being destroyed left and right.

[Whiskey144]

I've seen it recently and it did indeed only fire once.

Clip please?

Then why did they let that happen? If they were capable of doing so they, they would have gone "oh shit this plan isn't gonna work. Blow them away"

While I am of the opinion that it's likely that Palpatine's own arrogance was likely copied by lower echelons, particularly starship captains, it's more than likely that fear of retribution for disobedience kept the captains in check. It's not that they were incapable of doing so; it's that they were afraid of the consequences of their actions if they did do so, as it would be disobeying a direct order from the EMPEROR of the GE.

It is indeed a very top-down type of infrastructure, but that doesn't stop starship captains from have an initiative of their own. Especially when they are being destroyed left and right.

See above. Fear of the consequences of disobedience, usually death, would have prevented the Imperial captains from committing to such actions. The Emperor and Vader are not forgiving men, they are harsh and unmerciful.

[the atom]

Clip please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAF ... age#t=200s

While I am of the opinion that it's likely that Palpatine's own arrogance was likely copied by lower echelons, particularly starship captains, it's more than likely that fear of retribution for disobedience kept the captains in check. It's not that they were incapable of doing so; it's that they were afraid of the consequences of their actions if they did do so, as it would be disobeying a direct order from the EMPEROR of the GE.

Their orders were to prevent the Rebels from escaping. I fail to see how blowing up any ships that attempt to do are in violation of that

See above. Fear of the consequences of disobedience, usually death, would have prevented the Imperial captains from committing to such actions. The Emperor and Vader are not forgiving men, they are harsh and unmerciful.

Failing to prevent them from escaping would also be in direct violation of that order.

[Whiskey144]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAF ... age#t=200s

The clip shows the DS2 fire twice, at which point the Rebels intermix with the Imperial fleet, preventing the DS2 from firing further.

Their orders were to prevent the Rebels from escaping. I fail to see how blowing up any ships that attempt to do are in violation of that

Because, IIRC, Palpatine intended for DS2 to be what slaughtered the Rebel fleet. The Imperial battlegroup that was present was there mostly to keep the Rebels corralled in the "shooting gallery" for the DS2.

Failing to prevent them from escaping would also be in direct violation of that order.

No, it would be due to Rebel actions. It's not a failure, per se, as it's not the fault of the Imperial captains that the Rebels would manage to get a few ships out.....while the majority are blown to bits by the DS2 and the Imperial fleet that had surrounded the Rebels with interdictor vessels to prevent usage of hyperdrive escape.

[the atom]

The clip shows the DS2 fire twice, at which point the Rebels intermix with the Imperial fleet, preventing the DS2 from firing further.

*facepalm* How did i forget that one In any case the point still stands.

Because, IIRC, Palpatine intended for DS2 to be what slaughtered the Rebel fleet. The Imperial battlegroup that was present was there mostly to keep the Rebels corralled in the "shooting gallery" for the DS2

.

With 2 shots? Did he think they were just going to stand there and get get blasted while not attacking the Star Destroyers?

No, it would be due to Rebel actions. It's not a failure, per se, as it's not the fault of the Imperial captains that the Rebels would manage to get a few ships out.....while the majority are blown to bits by the DS2 and the Imperial fleet that had surrounded the Rebels with interdictor vessels to prevent usage of hyperdrive escape.

But because they were supposedly holding back on their firepower, it is a failure considering the fleet was losing, and as a result allowing most of the ships to escape.

[Darth Tedious]

But transferring maximum power to the guns is going to have an adverse effect on shields. Looking at it from an ISD captain's point of view, would you want to risk having your ship destroyed?

[the atom]

The point is moot because they were being destroyed. They had absolutely nothing to lose.

[Darth Yoshi]

The point is moot because they were being destroyed. They had absolutely nothing to lose.

Uh, yeah they do.
Do you want to be the one to explain to the Emperor later that you disobeyed his orders because you thought you knew better? That's a good way to get yourself killed, and probably your family too. At least if you go down because the Rebels shot your ship to pieces your family will still get your pension.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Because, IIRC, Palpatine intended for DS2 to be what slaughtered the Rebel fleet. The Imperial battlegroup that was present was there mostly to keep the Rebels corralled in the "shooting gallery" for the DS2

.

With 2 shots? Did he think they were just going to stand there and get get blasted while not attacking the Star Destroyers?

This would be the fleet of Star Destroyers yes? The fleeet that even the Rebel fleet commander did not expect to survive very long against? When even your enemy commander thinks your fleet is vastly superior, a measure of arrogance is justified.

As for the "two shots" thing, the wokiepedia entry on the Battle of Endor lists at least three destroyed vessels: the Liberty, the Maria and the Urjani.

"The Tale of IG-88" describes the DSII firing at and destroying at least a half-dozen ships.

[Connor MacLeod]

Failing to prevent them from escaping would also be in direct violation of that order.

Tractor beams and ion cannons and surgical shots.

Besides which, how else do you explain the fact they explicitly noted the Star Destroyers not attacking and the fact they were ordered not to attack? You seem to be assuming that Palpatine has the welfare of his troops in mind in any of this (he doesn't - in the novelization he orders the Death STar to destroy the Endor Moon if the Rebels knock the shields down, even though he has troops on planet.) or he would be logical about his orders (or the failure to execute them.) For that matter you're assuming that common sense would automatically outweigh obedience in the Imperial military (which isn't neccesarily the case - like in many cases, it depends on the officer in question. There's a fair bit of rivalry and infighting in the Navy because of that fact.)

[the atom]

Actually I'm thinking blind panic and fear will outweigh obedience in the Imperial military, like it does with nearly every single military organization in history.

From http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ on I doubt there was much in the way of a military command structure.

[Connor MacLeod]

Where did we see a breakdown of authority and actual panic?

Edit: Btw I lilke how you quietly ignored all the other points I brought up.

[the atom]

Where did we see a breakdown of authority and actual panic?

Edit: Btw I lilke how you quietly ignored all the other points I brought up.

We don't see it, but I'm assuming it was probably around the time said authority exploded.

Which points?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Assumptions are a very dumb thing to bring to a debate like this. Evidence please. The sad bit is I know a segment he could use as evidence (for the breakdown of authority, not the panic), but it's his position so he can find it on his own