Can Federation destroy Death Stars

[Darth Tedious]

Hyperwave comms are mentioned as far back as the WEG Sourcebook (which also makes mention of subspace comms), and more recently (and notably) in the RotS ICS.
SW subspace comms are mentioned in the EGWT.
Both have appeared in quite a few stories. Apparently both require relay networks.

Agreed though, they have never been very deeply delved into.

[Azron_Stoma]

SW uses HS for communications as well, otherwise how would they have had real time communications from across the galaxy during the clone wars?

Is that ever mentioned? I thought their real-time communications was never actually delved into that much. The HoloNet (I think that's what it's called) could be just a series of relays, like in ST, only more developed or using better technology because obviously they are a lot faster.

In Episode 2 Obi-Wan attempts to get a direct line to Coruscant but can't because Jango knocked out his long range coms. There are no relay stations in range (if any exist at all), so he had Padme and Anakin relay the message instead.

[Isolder74]

SW uses HS for communications as well, otherwise how would they have had real time communications from across the galaxy during the clone wars?

Is that ever mentioned? I thought their real-time communications was never actually delved into that much. The HoloNet (I think that's what it's called) could be just a series of relays, like in ST, only more developed or using better technology because obviously they are a lot faster.

In Episode 2 Obi-Wan attempts to get a direct line to Coruscant but can't because Jango knocked out his long range coms. There are no relay stations in range (if any exist at all), so he had Padme and Anakin relay the message instead.

It's possible that the problem wasn't that there were no relay stations in range but none that were safe for him to use. It would not be a good idea to try and send a signal back to the Jedi Council using a Trade Federation Holonet Station. He was able to contact Anakin on Tatooine with his transmitter but it's telling that he was detected and captured right away when doing it.

[the atom]

I haven't bothered to read through the whole thread (partly because I'm lazy and partly because it seems like a bit of a rage fest), so I'm not sure if my question has already been answered. But couldn't a small force of shuttles effectively do the same thing to the exhaust port as a group of X-wings with proton torpedos?

[Panzersharkcat]

I haven't bothered to read through the whole thread (partly because I'm lazy and partly because it seems like a bit of a rage fest), so I'm not sure if my question has already been answered. But couldn't a small force of shuttles effectively do the same thing to the exhaust port as a group of X-wings with proton torpedos?

I think it has been. Trek torpedoes have never been shown to perform the same type of turns that an X-wing fighter's torpedoes can and if they approach from above, there's a whole bunch of guns shooting their way rather than just one in trench.

[the atom]

So really they'd just have to come in at a steeper angle. Sounds technically possible, although they'd need some damn good pilots.

[Panzersharkcat]

Yes, while being shot at by a crapload of turrets and the fighter complement while flying significantly slower and less maneuverable craft that have worse targeting systems while under severe jamming.

[Darth Tedious]

Really, if it were as easy as just attacking on a steeper angle, the Rebel Scum proabably would have done so instead of that whole dangerous-trench run/ridiculously-hard-killshot thing that they did.

[the atom]

I said technically possible. Realistically it's still a million to one crapshoot.

[Metahive]

Really, if it were as easy as just attacking on a steeper angle, the Rebel Scum proabably would have done so instead of that whole dangerous-trench run/ridiculously-hard-killshot thing that they did.

To borrow one of the more annoying warsie arguments "d'uh, or the rebels are all morons who didn't think of the obvious solution, lol". Yeah, I really hate that one.

The actual explanation being of course that Lucas paid homage/ripped off (depending on your opinion of Lucas) the pivotal scene of that old war flick The Dambusters. I for my part am content with such out-of-universe explanation.

[Darth Tedious]

Really, if it were as easy as just attacking on a steeper angle, the Rebel Scum proabably would have done so instead of that whole dangerous-trench run/ridiculously-hard-killshot thing that they did.

To borrow one of the more annoying warsie arguments "d'uh, or the rebels are all morons who didn't think of the obvious solution, lol". Yeah, I really hate that one.

The actual explanation being of course that Lucas paid homage/ripped off (depending on your opinion of Lucas) the pivotal scene of that old war flick The Dambusters. I for my part am content with such out-of-universe explanation.

I'd go with 'took inspiration from Dambusters'. And there was also the out-of-universe factor of having to make sure only Luke could take the shot, because of his unique farmboy experience.
But there were at least a few in-universe factors. Besides being exposed to a suicidal amount of fire from all the defense towers, the Rebels would have a much worse question of "can we pull up in time?" How close would they have to be to make the shot straight-on, and how much would they need to slow down to avoid slamming into the DS?
IIRC, there were also some issues with several local shield generators needing to be destroyed for the trench run attack to be possible (which wasn't shown in the movie).

[the atom]

Yes, while being shot at by a crapload of turrets and the fighter complement while flying significantly slower and less maneuverable craft that have worse targeting systems while under severe jamming.

Evidence the shuttles are slower? Shuttles are shielded and are shown to have a higher durability then an X-wing or a Tie, so they'd be able to take a few hits from the lighter weapons, giving them more leeway then an x-wing or tie.

[Panzersharkcat]

Evidence the shuttles are slower? Shuttles are shielded and are shown to have a higher durability then an X-wing or a Tie, so they'd be able to take a few hits from the lighter weapons, giving them more leeway then an x-wing or tie.

Have Trek shuttles ever crossed 300,000 km in under five minutes? The Rebel fighter group did at the Battle of Yavin. Hell, the ginormous Death Star crossed roughly 200,000 km in those same five minutes. You will, of course, prove that Trek shuttles have better shields than X-wing fighters and would withstand more punishment from a TIE fighter's laser cannons than an X-wing even though said shuttles originate from a galaxy where their capital ships, like the Enterprise-D, has less firepower than a small Star Wars patrol craft, like the Slave-1.

P.S. It's TIE fighter. It stands for "twin ion engine."

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I said technically possible. Realistically it's still a million to one crapshoot.

Technically possible, but suicidally difficult. The rebels had two squads of fighter-bombers and one of strike fighters, and they didn't think they could get through that volume of fire. Starfleet shutles aren't so much fighters as armed space trucks, they're bulky, and I don't remember them ever being shown or described as notably manuverable. They're, well, shuttles, nice to have for a boarding action, all things being equal, but you don't want to be using them to do a fighter-bomber's job.

[Panzersharkcat]

Have Trek shuttles ever crossed 300,000 km in under five minutes?

They regularly use them to jump between planets in short time. "Final Mission" TNG has a crappy shuttle crossing some distance to a moon in short order. "By Inferno's Light" DS9 has a runabout crossing a good chunk of a solar system in a matter of minutes.

ST and SW are generally accepted to be about equal in terms of sublight capabilities.

I'll concede that point.

The Rebel fighter group did at the Battle of Yavin. Hell, the ginormous Death Star crossed roughly 200,000 km in those same five minutes.

That's never been proven.

Really? *shrug*

*snip*

So, unless I'm reading it wrong, which wouldn't surprise me (my science-fu is weak), even if we go by your figures, a small patrol craft like the Slave-1 is slightly weaker-roughly equal to a Trek capital ship?

[Whiskey144]

Just thought I'd pop in and say a few things.

Anyway, moving into power, the Enterprise's beam weapons likely pack a significantly harder punch, but at the same time, the Slave-1's shields can apparently take it (allegedly; does it even have shields? Remember, they were unlisted in the source).

The Wookieepedia page doesn't say whether or not the classtype, the Firespray-31, has shields. The wiki entry for the Slave-I itself states it has an "XS-12 Experimental Combat Shield System".......which gives it shielding comparable to a VSD.

The tradeoff, IMO, is that that's quite ridiculous. OTOH, Boba also installed the XS-12 in the craft during his ownership of it, so it's certainly not standard to the Firespray series. TBH, I'd say that the Slave-I has shielding comparable to that of Amidala's yacht, as given on the Five Minutes page. The two ships have comparable size and likely comparable powerplants, so it's likely, IMO, that they'd have similar shield capability.

That and a tiny ship like the Slave-I having VSD-grade shielding is just pants-on-head stupid.

Another advantage the Enterprise has is that it can stay on station for a lot longer. The slave1 is a small ship and probably has to cycle out every few days so the crew can rest, so they can resupply, etc. The Enterprise, on the other hand, is built for doing completely independent 5 year missions. It also carries more missiles, so it might be able to park somewhere and fight while the little ship is dashing across the galaxy to stock up each day. (the hyperspeed of course makes that trip a lot easier!)

The wiki pages give the endurance of the Slave-I as being 1 month, which itself is given in the Rebellion Era Sourcebook, as sourced by the wiki page. It certainly can't endure for as long as the Enterprise in any incarnation, but it's not quite cycling out every few days.

It probably helps the endurance that it's only designed to have a crew of two people, and it's quite large compared to starfighters of similar passenger capacity.

[Azron_Stoma]

That and a tiny ship like the Slave-I having VSD-grade shielding is just pants-on-head stupid.

Yeah I don't think any but the most rabid of "warsies" and fandalorians would consider that to be reasonable.

[the atom]

Evidence the shuttles are slower? Shuttles are shielded and are shown to have a higher durability then an X-wing or a Tie, so they'd be able to take a few hits from the lighter weapons, giving them more leeway then an x-wing or tie.

Have Trek shuttles ever crossed 300,000 km in under five minutes? The Rebel fighter group did at the Battle of Yavin. Hell, the ginormous Death Star crossed roughly 200,000 km in those same five minutes. You will, of course, prove that Trek shuttles have better shields than X-wing fighters and would withstand more punishment from a TIE fighter's laser cannons than an X-wing even though said shuttles originate from a galaxy where their capital ships, like the Enterprise-D, has less firepower than a small Star Wars patrol craft, like the Slave-1.

P.S. It's TIE fighter. It stands for "twin ion engine."

A shuttle craft resisting fire from photon torpedos, which are in the low megaton range, and significantly more powerful then the anti-fighter turrets on the Death Star.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1H5Heq ... age#t=401s

[the atom]

I said technically possible. Realistically it's still a million to one crapshoot.

Technically possible, but suicidally difficult. The rebels had two squads of fighter-bombers and one of strike fighters, and they didn't think they could get through that volume of fire. Starfleet shutles aren't so much fighters as armed space trucks, they're bulky, and I don't remember them ever being shown or described as notably manuverable. They're, well, shuttles, nice to have for a boarding action, all things being equal, but you don't want to be using them to do a fighter-bomber's job.

Here's a vid of one displaying some impressive maneuvering capabilities. As well as resisting some damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVSV7gxVjFg

[Captain Seafort]

A shuttle craft resisting fire from photon torpedos, which are in the low megaton range, and significantly more powerful then the anti-fighter turrets on the Death Star.

Says who? PTs are high kT-low Mt, per Pegasus and Rise, LTLs and heavy laser cannon are low-Mt, per ESB and AotC:ICS. They're close enough to be considered tactically equivalent.

[Panzersharkcat]

@Destructionator XIII: Thank you for clarifying.

@the atom: Not really impressed by the maneuverability, especially considering stuff that the Millennium Falcon, a light freighter, has pulled off. (That's actually probably not a very good example since it's been so heavily modified that it outruns and outmaneuvers goddamn TIE Interceptors.) As for firepower, what Captain Seafort said.

[the atom]

A shuttle craft resisting fire from photon torpedos, which are in the low megaton range, and significantly more powerful then the anti-fighter turrets on the Death Star.

Says who? PTs are high kT-low Mt, per Pegasus and Rise, LTLs and heavy laser cannon are low-Mt, per ESB and AotC:ICS. They're close enough to be considered tactically equivalent.

The difference here is that a shuttle can survive several direct hits from such firepower. An X-wing can't.

[Darth Tedious]

The difference here is that a shuttle can survive several direct hits from such firepower. An X-wing can't.

There's another tactical difference to consider, though- A shuttle has a much larger profile than the (rather sleek) X-wing. Some of the shots fired in the Battle of Yavin that were missing X-wings by small margins would have hit a shuttlecraft. And if the shuttles did the trench run, they'd be rather hard to miss!

But seriously, why are we talking about shuttlecraft? As has already been pointed out, they're fucking shuttlecraft!
Shouldn't we at least be talking about Peregrine fighters or something here?

[the atom]

The difference here is that a shuttle can survive several direct hits from such firepower. An X-wing can't.

There's another tactical difference to consider, though- A shuttle has a much larger profile than the (rather sleek) X-wing. Some of the shots fired in the Battle of Yavin that were missing X-wings by small margins would have hit a shuttlecraft. And if the shuttles did the trench run, they'd be rather hard to miss!

But seriously, why are we talking about shuttlecraft? As has already been pointed out, they're fucking shuttlecraft!
Shouldn't we at least be talking about Peregrine fighters or something here?

I thought shuttles would be the closest thing the Feds have to a fighter, seeing as it has played that role once or twice. What's a Peregrine fighter?

[Darth Tedious]

I thought shuttles would be the closest thing the Feds have to a fighter, seeing as it has played that role once or twice. What's a Peregrine fighter?

Something like this. Actual bona fide UFP fighter craft.