Bullying Apathy by school - WHY?

[SpaceMarine93]

This is a morality issue, a mundane but big one.

This is an issue EVERYONE would go through in their lives, especially in America - BULLYING. We all met bullies at some point in our younger years that generally makes school life miserable.

They are pricks who pick on other people just to make themselves feel stronger and better. The depravity of the bullies is self-evident:They insult and humiliate you, they beat you, they force you to give them money like a bunch of proto-mobster, they force you to do stuff that is repulsive, they makes you feel helpless, fearful, afraid. Some go as far as to brutally torture and 'violate' their victims in every sense of the word.

In other words, they are dicks, they are scums, they are sociopath, they are the closest resemblance of demons on Earth. They are everywhere in schools.

And yet, despite the prevalence of the problem, the school administrations, people expected to eradicate this problem often are ineffectual at doing such tasks.

PLENTY of schools that have serious problems with bullying regularly pretend it doesn't happen and outright deny its existence.

It almost as if teachers and principals are either complete morons, oblivious asswipes, naive clowns or apathetic dicks who simply look like they can't be bothered to do something about the menace that everyone would experience at one point. By the time they do, it is either too late or too little. Rarely does it helps.

It's a major stumbling block to dealing with serious bullying in schools. All the tragedies that happened because of bullying over the years, such as school shootings, could just be avoided. Hell, the complete monster of a bully named Bobby Kent wouldn't need to be murdered by his victims in 1993 if the school could just do something about it!

And don't get me started with apathy for bullying by people that are NOT school authorities.

Let me ask you people, one simple question: HOW COME?

[Johonebesus]

It may be difficult to believe, but as you age bullying fades in your memory. It's easy to dismiss it as a minor adolescent problem. Everything seems so much more important and dramatic as a teenager, and when you look back on it from your thirties it can be baffling how you got so upset over tiny little things. Most people don't go through really bad bullying, so I'm not surprised most folks can dismiss it as nothing. Those who did suffer badly probably don't want to go into education.

[Purple]

Another thing you should be asking is if it's the fault of the staff or if their hands are tied so that they can actually do nothing about it. I mean, what can they do to correct it? They can't beat the kid up, and often times even if they punish and single them out in some way (detention/bad grades) the parents are just going to come to the school to complain and make it all go away. This is especially true with primary schools here in Europe where the law is always going to be on the side of the poor kid on account for him being a kid. And it's not like you can just talk to them so that they will recognize how bad they were and turn nice.

[NettiWelho]

Since the schools are using this as an argument when applying their own seemingly extralegal rules(ie. arguing since they have the responsibility they have the right to set the rules accordingly (locker searches, confiscation of personal items, etc)).


So if I have understood that concept correctly the schools themselves are technically liable to be sued for any abuse experienced by the child:

Get the school administrators on the hook for child abuse(bullying == assault, to varying degree, and the inability to stop abuse IS abuse if the administration is aware, or atleast criminal negligence)

That should get the cogs moving.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

This is a morality issue, a mundane but big one.

This is an issue EVERYONE would go through in their lives, especially in America - BULLYING. We all met bullies at some point in our younger years that generally makes school life miserable.

They are pricks who pick on other people just to make themselves feel stronger and better. The depravity of the bullies is self-evident:They insult and humiliate you, they beat you, they force you to give them money like a bunch of proto-mobster, they force you to do stuff that is repulsive, they makes you feel helpless, fearful, afraid. Some go as far as to brutally torture and 'violate' their victims in every sense of the word.

In other words, they are dicks, they are scums, they are sociopath, they are the closest resemblance of demons on Earth. :twisted: They are everywhere in schools.

Does every post by you have to comprise of you hyperventillating about some godsdamned thing or another?

And yet, despite the prevalence of the problem, the school administrations, people expected to eradicate this problem often are ineffectual at doing such tasks.

PLENTY of schools that have serious problems with bullying regularly pretend it doesn't happen and outright deny its existence. :banghead:

Believe it or not, things have improved dramatically within the last fifty years with respect to bullying. Teachers and administrators receive better training about what constitutes bullying and what to do about it. A few decades ago, the solution to bullying? The person being bullied should learn to stop whining, man the fuck up, and give it right back to the bully. With their fists. Not really an effective solution, that, as all it taught kids was that violence is the solution to all problems.

It almost as if teachers and principals are either complete morons, oblivious asswipes, naive clowns or apathetic dicks who simply look like they can't be bothered to do something about the menace that everyone would experience at one point. By the time they do, it is either too late or too little. Rarely does it helps.

Here's the thing . . . there is a judgement call that has to be made by everyone involved. Someone, somewhere, has to make the determination that a person is actually being bullied and do something about it. Frequently, the person making that judgement call is the one on the receiving end. They're the ones who end up having to make the call to report that they are being bullied. Oftentimes, it's a matter of perception and individual tolerance.

Here's another thing. Little children are the meanest, cruelest, orneriest creatures this side of a tiger with a toothache. They're still learning that it's been a few million years since humans stopped settling their disputes by flinging poo at each other. Their social interactions can be far more aggressive than older people are comfortable with, but a lot of it is normal and even essential to their emotional development. Yes, there are children who take it much too far, and they should be treated while their brains still retain the plasticity of youth. There is a good reason why parenting guides strongly encourage parents not to be "helicopter parents," as children who are completely shielded from their peers, and from life in general, tend to grow up profoundly maladjusted.

It's a major stumbling block to dealing with serious bullying in schools. All the tragedies that happened because of bullying over the years, such as school shootings, could just be avoided. Hell, the complete monster of a bully named Bobby Kent wouldn't need to be murdered by his victims in 1993 if the school could just do something about it!

And don't get me started with apathy for bullying by people that are NOT school authorities.

Let me ask you people, one simple question: HOW COME?

Here you go with the hyperventillation again. Nobody needs to be murdered (especially through vigilante 'justice'); and we generally don't condone such talk on this board. Let me ask you this . . . where should we draw the line? School authorities cannot tell at a glance that a given child being picked on is either A) Thin-skinned and the person picking on them just needs gentle reminding about sensitivity or B) Genuinely being targeted by a future sociopath or C) A potential future sufferer of delusional paranoia.

But, again, where should we draw the line? Should we declare zero-tolerance at the school and that anyone accused of being a bully ought to be hauled off-campus by the cops (in handcuffs, if necessary)? Who is to say that such a solution won't drive the problem off-campus? Also, is bullying the 100% causative factor for a person who engages in a school shooting? Is it even more than 50% Or are there other factors involved, like home life, relationship troubles, or undiagnosed mental illness?

[Knife]

Here is the major problem in bullying. Ask any random person if they were bullied when they were kids. A vast majority will say yes. So if everyone was bullied, either we have a very dedicated corps. of Nelson's in each school bullying tons of kids, or a vast majority of kids ends up bullying someone in their 12-13 years of school. The actual issue is more complicated than stopping the mean people picking on SpaceMarine93, and more dealing with how kids relate to each other, cliques and groups and gangs. Conflict resolution and how to settle problems without fights. Image problems, little girls punishing other little girls for wearing cheap shoes and the like. Who is and isn't a slut. That sort of thing. Emotional bullying. That's what the schools are struggling with and it's more than stopping Nelson from beating you up at lunch. That one is easy, it takes you to report him and have staff know about it so they can monitor it. The social stigma of you 'ratting him out to the man' is the harder stuff that is more the root problem.

Hell there is probably someone out there that thinks you're a mean bully that hurt them in some way. You may not even know, but deep down you said or did something that to you was forgettable, but the poor kid will have it eating at him/her inside for decades, totally coloring their view of the world.

[ArmorPierce]

I was actually thinking about this the other day. I think that a large part of this has to do with the fact that the bullier are able to do their bullying underhanded without drawing much attention to themselves. The reason for this is you can choose when and where to bully and thus choose an oportune time to do it. Also, when you are bullying, you can be as quiet as you want while doing it as to not to draw attention. The bullied fighting back against the bullyer, however, be it physical or verbal bullying, usually requires becoming loud and drawing attention.

Schools don't like this drawn attention, so the bullied are effectively punished for attempting to defend themselves for obvious reasons. This actually fosters the bullying environment.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I know that happened to me in elementary school. I was the one who got in trouble for daring to stand up to the shitheads who were bullying me.

[Lord of the Abyss]

It may be difficult to believe, but as you age bullying fades in your memory.

That's certainly never been my experience. People may not consciously think about it much because the subject doesn't normally come up, but they have very vivid memories if the subject is brought up, and are often traumatized for life.

[Nephtys]

It may be difficult to believe, but as you age bullying fades in your memory.

That's certainly never been my experience. People may not consciously think about it much because the subject doesn't normally come up, but they have very vivid memories if the subject is brought up, and are often traumatized for life.

I've had a ton of bullying back when. I grew up in a small town, looked like a different ethnic group, and was the only atheist in a predominantly very churchy town. I broke two kids noses with rocks and gave one a concussion fighting back.

Now, some decade and a half later, it all is just so ridiculous. In fact, I do look fondly upon my youth experience. I had friends, and I had enemies. Standing up to said enemies I feel gave me a lot of the strength and self confidence to stand for myself. I'm in my mid twenties, and I'm certainly not traumatized for life. If anything, it's a fond set of memories from back when I was actually allowed to physically harm people who wronged me

[Covenant]

I'm certainly not traumatized for life. If anything, it's a fond set of memories from back when I was actually allowed to physically harm people who wronged me

A nice story, but it doesn't apply to everyone.

When I was in grade school I was bullied by what seemed like the entire school and went on for five years. I've always liked a good meal, so for lunch I'd bring a thermos of hot soup to go with my lunch, in whatever little kids Dinosaur or Ghostbusters or Ninja Turtles lunch box thermos I had at the time. Wasn't long before nobody knew my name and I didn't have a friend in the entire school, even the library lady knew me as Soup Kid and being addressed as such was horribly traumatizing on top of the intense alienation. On the playground I'd just try to avoid other kids because I'd have my hat stolen or be mocked or get my hair pulled. I actually got a portion of my hair pulled out of my head at times, causing my scalp to bleed. One time I was bit so hard it broke the skin. It was pretty brutal.

I wasn't socially awkward either, I had a few out-of-school friends from the nearby Catholic school that I met from them just living in the neighborhood, and I two some friends at school who then moved away--a really unlucky situation. So bad was this abuse that it basically left me shell-shocked, a self-hating loser who excelled at class subjects but still dreaded going to class and often came home in tears from sustained emotional and physical abuse.

That shit stopped in junior high when I instantly jumped to make friends with kids from other schools. Some minor bullying went on until Football season started and I was finally part of a group that was empowering and accepting. It's not like I was a fat little beanbag either, I could mess your shit up, but fighting was never an option just for being teased. In truth it wasn't until highschool when I finally even felt like I could physically defend myself, despite being a big guy, because by then I was so much like a whipped dog that you forget you even have fists.

Anyway, I think someone could have really changed the first chapter of my life if they had stepped in. If you removed a few crucial moments of my life after that, I have no idea what I'd be, but it'd be a terrible wreck of a person. I almost didn't join football because I hated (and still mostly do) sports in general, but I begrudgingly joined because my parents demanded that I try something and three of my new friends were going to play as well. If I hadn't met my friend Tom back in the day--because we shared Shop class--, I'd never have met the other guys and I know I'd never have joined football, since some of my tormentors were on that team.

Some of those scars go away slowly because they compound each other. I'm not still actually upset about it day to day, but it's a total joke to think I look back and go "Why was I so upset about this?"

[Stark]

Schools don't like this drawn attention, so the bullied are effectively punished for attempting to defend themselves for obvious reasons. This actually fosters the bullying environment.

I've heard of schools characterising anyone involved in any kind of conflict as wrong-minded or 'anti-school'. I'm not sure the appreciate that the message here is 'suffer in silence; do it for your school'. In some schools it is doubtless a problem (like cheating on exams or date rape) that schools would rather simply ignore.

[Norade]

The adults hired to watch the halls on lunches don't help anything either, they're bored and have no conflict resolution skills to speak of. Some are so poor at what they do that they can be talking to you, while people were throwing things at you, and not see it. Then you get hauled up for calling them a useless bitch and pointing out the pile of stuff that has been thrown at you that landed at your feet.

A few times things got so bad that I started to steal tools from shop class to strike back with because it can be hard to win fights when it's five or more on one even if the others just form a circle and trip you when you're trying to fight. In the end I learned that the best way to beat a bully is to nail them hard when they don't expect it. I've smashed faces into door frames, grabbed people by the throat until the fell and broke a leg, and wailed on people with bike lock chains. Why, because I had no options and the schools weren't getting rid of these students. Then I get expelled for downloading stuff on how to defend myself at school and they get to stay in.

This isn't even in a bad city, this is Kelowna, a tourist spot of under 200,000. Not many minorities, and a higher than average wage.

[Faqa]

A few times things got so bad that I started to steal tools from shop class to strike back with because it can be hard to win fights when it's five or more on one even if the others just form a circle and trip you when you're trying to fight. In the end I learned that the best way to beat a bully is to nail them hard when they don't expect it. I've smashed faces into door frames, grabbed people by the throat until the fell and broke a leg, and wailed on people with bike lock chains. Why, because I had no options and the schools weren't getting rid of these students. Then I get expelled for downloading stuff on how to defend myself at school and they get to stay in.

And this, folks, is why we need to keep a tighter lid on conflicts in schools, but more importantly, why you can suspend both participants in a fight, even if one is defending himself. It's not fair, but it does send a message.

Because if you let the kids even remotely get an idea that violence is acceptable, you get THIS shit, and then a bully dies, and nobody outside of hyperventilating 18-year-old dorks thinks this is a good idea.

[ArmorPierce]

I carried a knife and a small bat to school myself but that was more to protect myself from the environment outside of the school than in school. I guess you can call it bullying at some level even though they were drop outs or didn't go to that school and such.

[Ahriman238]

It almost as if teachers and principals are either complete morons, oblivious asswipes, naive clowns or apathetic dicks who simply look like they can't be bothered to do something about the menace that everyone would experience at one point. By the time they do, it is either too late or too little. Rarely does it helps.

It's a major stumbling block to dealing with serious bullying in schools. All the tragedies that happened because of bullying over the years, such as school shootings, could just be avoided. Hell, the complete monster of a bully named Bobby Kent wouldn't need to be murdered by his victims in 1993 if the school could just do something about it!

I like to think I am not a complete moron, oblvious asswipe, or naive clown. I am most certainly not apathetic, and neither are the majority of schools. I have to attend three workshops on bullying a year, and all but one education class I've ever taken has had a section on bullying and explaining to us why it is the number one problem in schools, which is mostly a reaction to public outcry and hysteria about it.

I'm going to share a harsh truth with you. I have a kid in my class, I'll see him four or five hours a week. Now, for as long as he's in my classroom, he's indisputably safe. As soon as he leaves my presence, he is no longer my direct control and protection. I can't keep him safe walking from school, I can't really prevent trouble from cropping up in the hallways or bathrooms (there are teachers who have corridor patrol to do that, but even they can't be everywhere all the time.) I can't prevent other students from sending threatening text messages or leaving rude messages on your myspace.

The fact is, if the bully doesn't try something right in front of me, there's usually little or nothing I can about it. And it is a very rare kid that's dumb enough to start something right in front of me, twice.

[Eulogy]

Because if you let the kids even remotely get an idea that violence is acceptable, you get THIS shit, and then a bully dies, and nobody outside of hyperventilating 18-year-old dorks thinks this is a good idea.

Fearful, desperate kids think that it's a good idea. They do that because they want the bullying and pain to STOP, and everything else they've tried did not work (to put it mildly).

The worse the situation, the faster kids will resort to extreme measures. If it's life or death/maiming, you can bet your report card that they WILL draw steel or guns. If authority figures are apathetic, or worse they encourage the bullying, sooner or later the kid will do things like go on a rampage or firebomb the school. Don't think it can't happen.

[Stark]

And this, folks, is why we need to keep a tighter lid on conflicts in schools, but more importantly, why you can suspend both participants in a fight, even if one is defending himself. It's not fair, but it does send a message.

If only schools bothered to verify or investigate claims of harrassment, maybe they could deal with this stuff before anyone had to get hurt.

Whether restrained by law or laziness, schools just don't want to get involved until it turns overt, by which point it's arguable it's too late. Imagine if cops said things like 'I can't do anything about it until I see it happen in front of me'.

[Norade]

A few times things got so bad that I started to steal tools from shop class to strike back with because it can be hard to win fights when it's five or more on one even if the others just form a circle and trip you when you're trying to fight. In the end I learned that the best way to beat a bully is to nail them hard when they don't expect it. I've smashed faces into door frames, grabbed people by the throat until the fell and broke a leg, and wailed on people with bike lock chains. Why, because I had no options and the schools weren't getting rid of these students. Then I get expelled for downloading stuff on how to defend myself at school and they get to stay in.

And this, folks, is why we need to keep a tighter lid on conflicts in schools, but more importantly, why you can suspend both participants in a fight, even if one is defending himself. It's not fair, but it does send a message.

Because if you let the kids even remotely get an idea that violence is acceptable, you get THIS shit, and then a bully dies, and nobody outside of hyperventilating 18-year-old dorks thinks this is a good idea.

That's a bullshit policy though, they need to make an example of the aggressor and council the victim. Anything less is spitting in the face of the victim. if some bully pushes too far, you think he doesn't have what he gets coming?

[Norade]

It almost as if teachers and principals are either complete morons, oblivious asswipes, naive clowns or apathetic dicks who simply look like they can't be bothered to do something about the menace that everyone would experience at one point. By the time they do, it is either too late or too little. Rarely does it helps.

It's a major stumbling block to dealing with serious bullying in schools. All the tragedies that happened because of bullying over the years, such as school shootings, could just be avoided. Hell, the complete monster of a bully named Bobby Kent wouldn't need to be murdered by his victims in 1993 if the school could just do something about it!

I like to think I am not a complete moron, oblvious asswipe, or naive clown. I am most certainly not apathetic, and neither are the majority of schools. I have to attend three workshops on bullying a year, and all but one education class I've ever taken has had a section on bullying and explaining to us why it is the number one problem in schools, which is mostly a reaction to public outcry and hysteria about it.

I'm going to share a harsh truth with you. I have a kid in my class, I'll see him four or five hours a week. Now, for as long as he's in my classroom, he's indisputably safe. As soon as he leaves my presence, he is no longer my direct control and protection. I can't keep him safe walking from school, I can't really prevent trouble from cropping up in the hallways or bathrooms (there are teachers who have corridor patrol to do that, but even they can't be everywhere all the time.) I can't prevent other students from sending threatening text messages or leaving rude messages on your myspace.

The fact is, if the bully doesn't try something right in front of me, there's usually little or nothing I can about it. And it is a very rare kid that's dumb enough to start something right in front of me, twice.

Then your school fails at protecting students. You have hall monitors and break supervisors right? Shouldn't they cover much of the day? The outside of school bullying should be treated as in school if it happens on he way to or from school. Bullying would also do well to be classified as assault. Slap the bullies with assault charges that will haunt them on criminal record checks because most of the real bad bullies are a lost cause anyway if they continue past middle school. If they can keep clean through high school then wipe the records.

[Norade]

Because if you let the kids even remotely get an idea that violence is acceptable, you get THIS shit, and then a bully dies, and nobody outside of hyperventilating 18-year-old dorks thinks this is a good idea.

Fearful, desperate kids think that it's a good idea. They do that because they want the bullying and pain to STOP, and everything else they've tried did not work (to put it mildly).

The worse the situation, the faster kids will resort to extreme measures. If it's life or death/maiming, you can bet your report card that they WILL draw steel or guns. If authority figures are apathetic, or worse they encourage the bullying, sooner or later the kid will do things like go on a rampage or firebomb the school. Don't think it can't happen.

I did everything I could, I went to parents, school staff, and the police and all of them did fuck all. Yet it would have been my fault if I had maimed somebody in their eyes. Frankly, no authority wants to deal with bullying, most cops were the bullies, most teachers don't get paid enough to care, and your own parents can only do so much. I'd rather see a bully get killed than watch him ruin peoples lives and leave them shells for life.

[Norade]

And this, folks, is why we need to keep a tighter lid on conflicts in schools, but more importantly, why you can suspend both participants in a fight, even if one is defending himself. It's not fair, but it does send a message.

If only schools bothered to verify or investigate claims of harrassment, maybe they could deal with this stuff before anyone had to get hurt.

Whether restrained by law or laziness, schools just don't want to get involved until it turns overt, by which point it's arguable it's too late. Imagine if cops said things like 'I can't do anything about it until I see it happen in front of me'.

Cops do say that though, I tried to press charges when I had a knife pulled on me by a group of kids from my middle school. They used dirty tricks and repeated questioning and then said my story had holes in it. Those holes were caused by crooked questions asked months apart about a traumatic event. Honestly the cops give as much of a shit as the school in most cases. Which is to say they don't. My little brother was also mugged when he went out to buy groceries, and the cops didn't want to press charges even though the kid was a known trouble maker and the parents were hiding drugs as the police were pulling up.

[Eleas]

I'm not as unremittingly condemnatory as Norade (though given Norade's experience I should perhaps have used the word 'cynical' instead), but I'm definitely on Covenant's and Norade's side of the block here. Calling the cops wasn't an option; while the danger level wasn't usually escalated to the level of lethal violence, you still didn't rat on the other inmates if you knew what was good for you. As far as the ability to shrug it off with a laugh before gaily bounding down the meadows of life, it's not that simple when twenty years later you still can't go into a school or school-like building without involuntarily tensing up and looking for exits.

Ok. The sun is out, it's an awesomely sunny day out there, and trying to remember what school was like would just mean I spent it indoors in apathy, so I'll just leave the subject be.

[Faqa]

That's a bullshit policy though, they need to make an example of the aggressor and council the victim. Anything less is spitting in the face of the victim. if some bully pushes too far, you think he doesn't have what he gets coming?

Ummm.... no. I deeply do not think a campaign of verbal harassment or even physical intimidation justifies retribution using deadly force. These are still kids. Yes, even the nasty bully.

I don't disagree that the aggressor in a conflict should face greater consequences than the victim, if indeed one can easily point to an aggressor (hint - there are two participants in a fight. Both typically think they're justified, given that neither are from an 80's high school movie). HOWEVER, unless the victim used minimal force to only end the fight, then yes, the victim should be punished. Not because it's "fair" or because he did something not understandable - but because violence is not an acceptable way of resolving conflicts. One should never view violence as something acceptable to inflict. And that is a lesson schools need to teach as much as any other. Yes, violence is always wrong, unless it is directly related to preventing other violence. And no, not in the Ender Wiggin school of "preventing". No matter how much your inner-ape sense of justice says otherwise.

If only schools bothered to verify or investigate claims of harrassment, maybe they could deal with this stuff before anyone had to get hurt.

Oh, this I agree with unequivocally. Schools mentioned in this thread seem to be neglecting their side of the equation in favor of merely dishing out punishment to make people quiet down.

[Skgoa]

In most schools I have attended (we moved to different cities a couple of times) the teachers and staff were pretty proactive, indeed I remember being in trouble for normal (for boys that age) and mutual wild behaviour. Oh, how I loath the sentence "you can behave that way at home but not in public" (or variations of that) to this day! The only really "bad thing" was when I had a two year long fight with a girl. We were in love, but were to young to understand... ten years later she wrote me an apology via facebook. The only time I witnessed real bullying going on was in 4th grade. I really didn't like that school or that town. (Frankfurt am Main) I remember that I once asked the teacher who was supposed to enforce order in the yard durning the breaks, why she let such things happen... I don't remember her answer, just that it was dismissive and made me feel uncomfortable and unsafe in that school. Thankfully we moved to a different city and a much better school after a year. I have gone to german schools, exclusively.
With that in mind, I have been wondering for years how american parents can let it get so out of hand. I have mostly explained it to myself as just being the media overhyping things. But wow, reading you guys' experiences... I would definitely home school my kids, were I a parent in america.