Robots

[Ryag Han]

Robots, androids and any kind of artificial intelligence is a favorite subject to me. now in both sw and st they have them. question is, which is better? consider the next criteria when you decide:
a good robot has to move. most robots move. but, which has the best flexibility, grace and speed?
intelligence, sapience and sentience (the ability to feel pain, in this case emotions). most are stupid preprogramed machines, but some have showed high levels of intelligence and self awareness.
there is also looks. Data for example is made to look human, while, say, a super battle droid is made to look menacing. this criteria is especially useful when you send your robot to war. let's face it: when a big, metallic android or else shows up armed to the teeth, most people would think or running.
if you have any other criteria to add, please do so.

[HMS Sophia]

Star wars. There is a female assassin droid who passes for completely human, unlike data who looks like he has a bad skin disease and talks like a dictionary.

ETA: Human replica droids are common in SW, and Data is unique:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Human_replica_droid

[Ryag Han]

Star wars. There is a female assassin droid who passes for completely human, unlike data who looks like he has a bad skin disease and talks like a dictionary.

actually, she inspired me to make this tread Guri, right? she's a Human replica droid.


beats Data and 7 of 9 any day.(yes, i know 7 of 9 isn't a robot, any more, but even a battle droid has more personality than her, so...)

[HMS Sophia]

That is the one I mean yes
But she isn't the only one.

[Ryag Han]

While Star Wars has droids to do this kind of thing, so technically their computers can do it all and probably more, it's not as seamless as it is in the Trek ships.

well, yeah. but keep in mind that sw droids, especially the likes of 3PO, R2 or Guri are extremely human like and can indeed do all of that, while their very small when compared to a computer several decks high. smaller technology most definitely earns points.

as for 7 of 9, she still has a lame personality. character development doesn't solve that.

[PayBack]

Not to mention the fact that R2's are used by backward middle of nowhere farmers, and C3P0 was built by a 10 year old using left overs. Yet had personalites, are smart enough to mistrust untrustworthy humans and even make smart arse remarks at each others expense. So a farm impliment could grasp humor where the wonder of the galaxy Data struggled.

[Metahive]

Star wars. There is a female assassin droid who passes for completely human, unlike data who looks like he has a bad skin disease and talks like a dictionary.

ETA: Human replica droids are common in SW, and Data is unique:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Human_replica_droid

You forget Data's "mother" who not only passed for completely human (save for some minor quirks which only Data could pick up) but also believed herself to be so. Data's unusual looks are therefore a deliberate design choice rather than a necessity. Data isn't unique either when you take said "mother" in consideration and his psychotic twin brother. Then there's all the holographic constructs which all have the potential to achieve sentience if only allowed to accumulate memories or just are like that from the beginning like Holo-Moriarty. They might not be "androids" in the traditional bolts'n metal sense but they're AIs nonetheless.

[Ryag Han]

Data was specifically designed that way. His predecessor, Lore, really had no trouble at all with it.

yeah, but Lore had really no grasp on morality or any of that kind. he was a psycho. but i still like him.

That just means they are common, but not necessarily any more or less advanced.

On accidental AIs, let's not forget Moriarty...

wait, wasn't Moriarty an accident that didn't really had a personality of his own, in the sense that he gained it by personal experiences, but rather he was just a manifestation of his character? you know, the collective idea of James Moriarty being stored in the computer and he being just a manifestation of them, that gained consciousness by pure accident?
speaking of which, was he the idea behind the Doctor? i always wondered if he was the idea of a sentient hologram.

[Darth Tedious]

IIRC, Moriarty was indeed the inspiration for the EMH.

[Ahriman238]

My understanding is that droids are given enough intellectual abilities to do whatever their job is, then subject to routine memory wipes to prevent them from devolping software quirks and personalities. 3PO and R2 are clearly higher end, 3PO is a translator with extensive programing in etiquette and protocol, while R2 is a starship mechanic. Compare with the prequel's battledroids, or even the mouse droid. How much processing power do you think they need?

But SW droids are also subject to overspecialization. R2 may be fine and dandy in a hanger, but he's not exactly an all-terrain droid. 3PO speaks six million languages, but what else can he do, besides regularly proclaim that they're all doomed?

[Ryag Han]

My understanding is that droids are given enough intellectual abilities to do whatever their job is, then subject to routine memory wipes to prevent them from devolping software quirks and personalities. 3PO and R2 are clearly higher end, 3PO is a translator with extensive programing in etiquette and protocol, while R2 is a starship mechanic. Compare with the prequel's battledroids, or even the mouse droid. How much processing power do you think they need?

that is irrelevant. even today with our most powerful computers, we can't get even close to what even the battle droids can do. so to answer your question, they need a lot more processing power that we ever had in any of our computers, even supercomputers. yet, even though they have the "brain" the size of one of our processing units, they can still do it. even with limited intellectual abilities to do whatever their job is, as you put the, they still have very distinct personalities.

But SW droids are also subject to overspecialization. R2 may be fine and dandy in a hanger, but he's not exactly an all-terrain droid. 3PO speaks six million languages, but what else can he do, besides regularly proclaim that they're all doomed?

R2 can repair starships, hack computers, even be decorated for his actions, and we saw him able to function from deserts to swamps and from forests to being able to fly. C3PO could even pilot a starship in ROTS, he can make plans, pretend...
did i mention Guri? she's basically like the humanoid Cylons from BSG. now those are dam advance robots. they can have dam babies with humans for fuck sake.

[PayBack]

So a farm impliment could grasp humor where the wonder of the galaxy Data struggled.

Data was specifically designed that way. His predecessor, Lore, really had no trouble at all with it.

C3P0 was built by a 10 year old using left overs.

That just means they are common, but not necessarily any more or less advanced.

On accidental AIs, let's not forget Moriarty...

Yes and look how well Lore worked out... I didn't see Starfleet begging him to join.

And I would say C3P0 would be considered less advanced (by SW standards, certainly not by ST) if he was put together by a 10 year old from scrap parts.

[PayBack]

My understanding is that droids are given enough intellectual abilities to do whatever their job is, then subject to routine memory wipes to prevent them from devolping software quirks and personalities. 3PO and R2 are clearly higher end, 3PO is a translator with extensive programing in etiquette and protocol, while R2 is a starship mechanic. Compare with the prequel's battledroids, or even the mouse droid. How much processing power do you think they need?

But SW droids are also subject to overspecialization. R2 may be fine and dandy in a hanger, but he's not exactly an all-terrain droid. 3PO speaks six million languages, but what else can he do, besides regularly proclaim that they're all doomed?

hmmm my understanding is the complete opposite of yours

And again, 3PO was built by a 10 year old from scrap.. you seriously call that high end? And some backward country boy doesn't seem impressed on buying R2's for his daddies moisture farm. High end? I think not.

[Eleas]

Guri was at the extreme high end of the curve, eclipsing any other HRD we've seen to date in SW. Not just the fact of her being a humaniform robot, but for her impressive strength and combat abilities coupled with an internal structure closely mimicking that of a human (she could pass for human in cursory medical scans). So I'm not sure she's the best choice for representing humaniform robots in SW.

[Panzersharkcat]

Meh. What's really weird is how interchangeable droid parts seem to be in the Star Wars universe, even if they're from different models for completely different purposes, like that time C-3PO and a random battle droid ended up swapping heads.

[PayBack]

IIRC the main site covers the Fits Anywhere head... or at least the part of the site reviewing Episode 2.

[Ahriman238]

hmmm my understanding is the complete opposite of yours

And again, 3PO was built by a 10 year old from scrap.. you seriously call that high end? And some backward country boy doesn't seem impressed on buying R2's for his daddies moisture farm. High end? I think not.

In the brains/computing power category, I absolutely rate them as high end. Yes, there probably isn't much call for starship mechanics on farms. Yes, 3PO was built by a ten year old, probably using parts obtained from a junkyard. And he is literally indistinguishable from a factory standard model, aside from the gold plating. Which says a lot about his ten year old creator, no?

Even if they aren't the latest models, they're higher-end because they're built to do more complex tasks than say, a droid rickshaw driver, or a droid that moves heavy boxes.

[Azron_Stoma]

Here's a thought, has anyone ever used HRDs to use as Avatars? Like a Moff or other ranking individual wants to be somewhere "personally" but doesn't want to put themselves in harms way. So they interface with an HRD copy of themselves from a safe distance and send that into the area.

I guess it all depends on what is more expensive, the humaniform physical component parts being able to pass as human even on medical scans. Or the extremely complex AI.

There's also the question of how much of it is "Weak AI" that is so sophisticated it seems like "Strong AI". Like such a massive amount of contextural dialogue choices and procedural dialogue generation capabilities that it gives the illusion of conciousness. To the point where it will actually vehemently proclaim it's own sentientce and fight to preserve it, yet is no more really alive than a Fallout New Vegas NPC. Compared to how much of it actually is "Strong AI".

Lucas in interveiws suggests that 3PO isn't Strong AI at all, and has no "Soul" as it were. Guri on the other hand seems much more likely to be a Strong AI.

[PayBack]

hmmm my understanding is the complete opposite of yours

And again, 3PO was built by a 10 year old from scrap.. you seriously call that high end? And some backward country boy doesn't seem impressed on buying R2's for his daddies moisture farm. High end? I think not.

In the brains/computing power category, I absolutely rate them as high end. Yes, there probably isn't much call for starship mechanics on farms. Yes, 3PO was built by a ten year old, probably using parts obtained from a junkyard. And he is literally indistinguishable from a factory standard model, aside from the gold plating. Which says a lot about his ten year old creator, no?

Even if they aren't the latest models, they're higher-end because they're built to do more complex tasks than say, a droid rickshaw driver, or a droid that moves heavy boxes.

Well if they're high end, then high end is pretty common... where as the likes of Data are rare. personaly I don't consider something high end just because it can multitask. Robots doing the most mundane jobs in SW often had personalities etc.. hell even Jabbas door was smart enough to be rude and instuling IIRC. Oh and yes, I think it was a smart ass door, and not a human or whatever "on the other end" due to C3PO's reaction. He'll take shit from a person, but not other droids.

[Enigma]

Both sides have fairly advanced forms of AI. Same with rudimentary forms of AI. What sets them apart is the hardware. This is where SW is ahead, for now anyways. The UFP just doesn't have the know how to recreate the positronic brain even though they have Lore to study with. Hell, even Data couldn't recreate a positronic brain and keep it stable. They can create the software but have trouble with the hardware.

But I foresee the UFP sidestepping the use of androids and robots with the advent of the mobile emitter. With them they can create whatever they want based on the AI. Or the AI can choose a form that is suitable for whatever task it is programmed for.

[Batman]

Wouldn't the holoemitter mean they solved the hardware problem too? Once he got the emitter the EMH seemed to be perfectly capable of operating goodly distances away from VOY so it's not like his AI was back on the ship and only its reactions were transmitted through the emitter.

[Ahriman238]

Well if they're high end, then high end is pretty common... where as the likes of Data are rare. personaly I don't consider something high end just because it can multitask. Robots doing the most mundane jobs in SW often had personalities etc.. hell even Jabbas door was smart enough to be rude and instuling IIRC. Oh and yes, I think it was a smart ass door, and not a human or whatever "on the other end" due to C3PO's reaction. He'll take shit from a person, but not other droids.

Yeah, I think you missed the point a bit there. Or perhaps I expressed myself poorly. Star Wars droids have a vast range of complexity and abilities, most or all of which are directly related to their function. To the point where it gets a bit hard to distinguish between a droid and a computer with just a dab of AI.

There are droids in Star Wars that don't really seem any more intelligent than a roomba. There are also droids that probably eclipse Data.

R2 is at least as intelligent as a human. He is built to be a starship mechanic/pilot's aid, but he is quite capable of understanding things beyond his function, like conversation. 3PO is probably packing better than a human brain, but only within his narrow specialization. He speaks six. million. languages.

Actually, now I'm kind of wondering what the point of Anakin building him was? I mean, besides shoehorning another OT character into the prequel films. What use haave two slaves on an impoverished desert planet have for a translator and master of etiqutte?

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

It probably had more to do with what was available than any actual choice. My guess is that Watto had a bunch of spare protocol droid parts on hand and couldn't get rid of them, so he let Anakin put a whole droid together out of them. If they were parts for a more useful droid (in that location) I doubt Watto would have just let Anakin have them.

[Omeganian]

Wasn't there a similar discussion already?

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=140663

[Enigma]

Wouldn't the holoemitter mean they solved the hardware problem too? Once he got the emitter the EMH seemed to be perfectly capable of operating goodly distances away from VOY so it's not like his AI was back on the ship and only its reactions were transmitted through the emitter.

Unfortunately, the Doctor's emitter is about as rare as Data. Plus it is future tech. You could argue about the large version that he carried in Endgame, then again it may just as rare as the 29th century version. I do not recall afaik, the Doctor's SO having a mobile emitter. Possibly even by the future in Endgame, mobile emitters are difficult to manufacture?

I find it funny though that the Starfleet is unable to replicate Soong's positronic technology yet they will end up creating something even better.

I do find it unusual that the UFP do not have robots of any kind in use other than Data (and now possibly B4).

Nevertheless, currently I believe that SW has an overwhelming advantage in AI development and hardware construction. In ST, while they can develop advanced AI, it is largely frowned upon due to several instances of Starfleet going up against rogue AI (Lore, M5, etc..) but are willing to pounce on stable AI for their own use (wanting Data and Lawl\Lahl).

Robotics in ST is still largely in its infancy when in reality they should be swimming in robot or androids for various functions from freight handling to starship security and ground forces.