Star Wars Universe vs. Halo Universe

[ThePerson5]

It's not like the other two Halo factions stood for anything at all here anyway, so it's hardly me being unfair. But sure, I don't care, they are removed from this match. At this point, it's basically the Forerunners vs. A New Hope Star Wars, and the Forerunners are winning. Because that is pretty much the Empire's peak anyway.

[Formless]

In this debate, the tech disparity is simply too large. These are the guys that mount star-kersploding weapons on their standard ships, use technobabble slipspace weaponry, and a whole bunch of other wankfest retarded stuff like punting planets through slipspace etc. etc. etc.

A single Sun Crusher gone rogue was devastating for the Empire, what could an entire fleet of them do? That's basically what the Forerunners have in store.

If the average Forerunner ship could be pwned by the average Star Destroyer, its not going to get close enough to a star to blow it up. If their slipstream tech cannot get through Imperial Interdiction fields, they cannot get close enough to blow up the star. If it cannot complete its mission without getting destroyed by Imperial forces in the process, then it becomes a matter of attrition. The thing about the Sun Crusher wasn't just that it could blow up stars, its that it was small enough to sneak into a system, fast enough to get out, and had fuckoff wanky armor that could shrug off the biggest guns that ships thousands of times its tonnage could throw at it. Plus, the reason it destabilized the galaxy was that it went online after the galaxy was already destabilized by a goddamn revolution. Superweapons are not the be all and end all if your average tech is at a disadvantage.

Think about what would happen if a fantasy mage tried to sneak into the Pentagon to blow it up with his Epic Level Magic spells. If the rest of his magic and techniques are insufficient to get him past modern security, he's as good as bumfucked.

Just curious, but what bioweapons have we seen the Empire use in the past?

Though it is often quoted as a BDZ event, the destruction of Caamas was from the beginning noted to involve the use of bioweapons. Likewise, the Noghri homeworld was rendered uninhabitable by bio-warefare. And then there are the godforesaken Vong, which are all over the biotech meme like sploog on a wanker's hands.

[ChosenOne54]

If the average Forerunner ship could be pwned by the average Star Destroyer, its not going to get close enough to a star to blow it up. If their slipstream tech cannot get through Imperial Interdiction fields, they cannot get close enough to blow up the star. If it cannot escape the blast without getting destroyed by Imperial forces in the process, then it becomes a matter of attrition. The thing about the Sun Crusher wasn't just that it could blow up stars, its that it was small enough to sneak into a system, fast enough to get out, and had fuckoff wanky armor that could shrug off the biggest guns that ships thousands of times its tonnage could throw at it. Plus, the reason it destabilized the galaxy was that it went online after the galaxy was already destabilized by a goddamn revolution. Superweapons are not the be all and end all if your average tech is at a disadvantage.

Do we have a basis for assuming Star Destroyers could one-shot Forerunner vessels? A hint: 10,000 year outdated Forerunner combat suits can cause massive continental deformations, which are absolutely raped up the bum-bum by more recent Forerunner combat suits. What do you think capital ships can do? Apart from raping entire Halos, I mean, these Halos actually having shields made of hard light, and being, what, four times larger than the ones seen in game? As mentioned earlier, fleet of 10,000 were small by Forerunner standards, and there are only, what, 25,000 Star Destroyers?

I mean, just putting that out there.

[HMS Sophia]

10,000 year outdated Forerunner combat suits can cause massive continental deformations, which are absolutely raped up the bum-bum by more recent Forerunner combat suits.

Proof. Give it too me. (Mainly because I'm interested)

[ChosenOne54]

10,000 year outdated Forerunner combat suits can cause massive continental deformations, which are absolutely raped up the bum-bum by more recent Forerunner combat suits.

Proof. Give it too me. (Mainly because I'm interested)

It's one of the quotes on the first page, the one about large stamp-like divots being punched into the planet.

Here:
Page 197

The atmosphere below was a swirling soup of smoke and
fire. Warrior craft and automated weapon systems were
mostly to small to be visible, but I saw their effects – darting
beams of needle light, glowing arcs cutting across conti-
nents, gigantic, stamplike divots punched into the crust and
then lifted up, spun about, overturned. I had never seen
anything like this – but the Didact had.

[Shroom Man 777]

As mentioned earlier, fleet of 10,000 were small by Forerunner standards, and there are only, what, 25,000 Star Destroyers?

I mean, just putting that out there.

How large is a cruiser? How many do they have? For all we know they have less numerous larger ships and they get swarmed by ISD's.

We don't have an exact number, but we can estimate about how many they have based of quotes from the Halo 3 Terminals:

In support of 05-032's original 1000 core vessels is a fleet numbering 4,802,019; though only 1.8 percent are warships - and only 2.4 percent of that number are capital ships - I am outnumbered [436.6:1]. I expect my losses will be near total, but overwhelming force has its own peculiar drawbacks.

In this quote, it is said that Mendicant Bias had a fleet of about 4 802 019 ships, 1.8% of those being warships. So doing the math, you get about 86 436 warships under the control of Mendicant Bias alone. Of that percentage, 2.4% are capital ships, so again, doing the math bring us to about 2074 capital ships. We don't exactly know how many, but 'capital ship' probably includes Dreadnoughts and Fortress Class vessels.

Then we add in the number of ships Offensive Bias had under his command. He states he is outnumbered 436.6 to one, and assuming all of Offensive’s ships are military vessels (he was designed specifically to combat Mendicant), that gives him about 10 998 ships.

Add the fleets of Mendicant and Offensive Bias together and you get roughly 97 434 warships. That likely isn't the entire fleet, as the events of the terminal are very late into the war anyway.

Unless I screwed up and fail at math

Okay, so that's all well and good without us knowing how they define things. The Empire has at least 25,000 ISD's as well as both larger and smaller support vessels. Publius had some good data on the overall state of Star Wars fleet counts and he came up with number of 24 ISD's per sector fleet with ~1,600 other combat craft meaning that at the low end we would have 25,000 ISD's and 1,665,600 other combat craft just from sector groups. Toss in ships that don't fit into these groups and that number gets much large. Add in warships that protect Imperial worlds that aren't part of Imperial fleets and... well you get the picture. In a pure force on force action

Even granting the forerunners an extra 50% fleet strength, which doesn't always make sense because late in a war would would expect to see the largest fleets in many cases, you would only get ~3,500 fore runner capital ships and ~145,000 other combatants. This marks capital ships as being outnumbered 7:1 by ISD's and the other ships by at least 11:1.

Hm, well there's nothing I can say to that. As you said, we don't have a ton of information on the Forerunner's capabilities. I guess we'll have to wait until the next book is released, or passibly the next game.

I mean, just putting that out there.

[R.E.G.I.S Mk. V]

If the average Forerunner ship could be pwned by the average Star Destroyer, its not going to get close enough to a star to blow it up. If their slipstream tech cannot get through Imperial Interdiction fields, they cannot get close enough to blow up the star.

Unless the retcon-merry-go-round has struck again its noted in H:TFoR that an asteroid located in Slipspace would just pass through a planet in its path and no one would notice.

Also, on Flood Vs Forerunener see my post on page 2 since its up now.

[ChosenOne54]

I mean, just putting that out there.

I'm sorry, did you think I was unaware of that previous argument I had with Norade? I learned more information about the Forerunners since then (it's possible, you know).

[HMS Sophia]

It's one of the quotes on the first page, the one about large stamp-like divots being punched into the planet.
Here:
Page 197
The atmosphere below was a swirling soup of smoke and
fire. Warrior craft and automated weapon systems were
mostly to small to be visible, but I saw their effects – darting
beams of needle light, glowing arcs cutting across conti-
nents, gigantic, stamplike divots punched into the crust and
then lifted up, spun about, overturned. I had never seen
anything like this – but the Didact had.

Warrior craft and automated weapon systems... that sounds more like fighters and vehicles than combat suits to me.
And the divots are certainly not continent deformations. Id there anything in that passage about how high up the viewer is? Because people on the ISS can see the flood plains easily enough, and those are certainly not continental in scale.
Yes there are those glowing arcs... but what are they? I mean you could say an ICBM was a glowing arc that cut across continents. It could just be a very fast missile. These things do not need to be particularly capable...

[ChosenOne54]

Warrior craft and automated weapon systems... that sounds more like fighters and vehicles than combat suits to me. And the divots are certainly not continent deformations. Id there anything in that passage about how high up the viewer is?Because people on the ISS can see the flood plains easily enough, and those are certainly not continental in scale. Yes there are those glowing arcs... but what are they? I mean you could say an ICBM was a glowing arc that cut across continents. It could just be a very fast missile. These things do not need to be particularly capable...

That actually highlights how advanced the Forerunners military is; those were Builder security forces, not even the military, but I concede.

As for the stamp like divots, the impression I got was that chunks of the crust were being pulled up and used as makeshift fly-swatter devices. Which would be fairly effective if you think about it.

There's another quote on the first page of beams from a cruiser cutting canyon-like gouges across the surface of a Halo.

[R.E.G.I.S Mk. V]

Warrior craft and automated weapon systems... that sounds more like fighters and vehicles than combat suits to me.
And the divots are certainly not continent deformations. Id there anything in that passage about how high up the viewer is? Because people on the ISS can see the flood plains easily enough, and those are certainly not continental in scale.
Yes there are those glowing arcs... but what are they? I mean you could say an ICBM was a glowing arc that cut across continents. It could just be a very fast missile. These things do not need to be particularly capable...

Around a 100 kilometers according to Bornstellar on the next page:

Page 198 Halo: Cryptum

The planet seemed close enough to touch,
maybe a hundred kilometers below, nighttime emphasizing
the dying glow of what might have been forests, cities.

[ThePerson5]

All of this discussion, and nobody has brought up the fact that the Forerunners could sent a Halo to Palpatine through slipspace and concentrate it on his fleet, so it wipes them all out.

[HMS Sophia]

That actually highlights how advanced the Forerunners military is; those were Builder security forces, not even the military, but I concede.

As for the stamp like divots, the impression I got was that chunks of the crust were being pulled up and used as makeshift fly-swatter devices. Which would be fairly effective if you think about it.

There's another quote on the first page of beams from a cruiser cutting canyon-like gouges across the surface of a Halo.

Interesting. About it being security forces I mean.

Also, your much vaunted destruction of a Halo, actually ends with the Halo tearing itself apart under gravity rather than the ships destroying it. Yes they knock lumps out of it... but that's exactly what happens when the POA explodes.
And cutting canyon like gouges? It's a cutting laser. A powerful one, but still. A turbo-laser could do similar and/or much worse.

Around a 100 kilometers according to Bornstellar on the next page:

That's hilarious. The ISS is 250 miles up apparently, which means those views are tiny in comparison. Your viewer is seeing very little.

[Formless]

All of this discussion, and nobody has brought up the fact that the Forerunners could sent a Halo to Palpatine through slipspace and concentrate it on his fleet, so it wipes them all out.

Because it was already established that a Halo can be fucked up by a modern tactical nuke destroying its structural integrity. Fuck off, you worthless trolling pre-teen turd. Now you're just being dishonest.

[ChosenOne54]

Interesting. About it being security forces I mean.

Also, your much vaunted destruction of a Halo, actually ends with the Halo tearing itself apart under gravity rather than the ships destroying it. Yes they knock lumps out of it... but that's exactly what happens when the POA explodes.
And cutting canyon like gouges? It's a cutting laser. A powerful one, but still. A turbo-laser could do similar and/or much worse.

Conceded, though there's still the issues of slipspace weaponry, premature stellar collapse, and the Halo rings themselves.

[ThePerson5]

All of this discussion, and nobody has brought up the fact that the Forerunners could sent a Halo to Palpatine through slipspace and concentrate it on his fleet, so it wipes them all out.

Because it was already established that a Halo can be fucked up by a modern tactical nuke destroying its structural integrity. Fuck off, you worthless trolling pre-teen turd. Now you're just being dishonest.

No, it hasn't. I asked for sombody to do calcs on that explosion at the end of the cutscene, and I got nothing. So, proof that the explosion has an equivalent yield to a modern day nuke?

[HMS Sophia]

All of this discussion, and nobody has brought up the fact that the Forerunners could sent a Halo to Palpatine through slipspace and concentrate it on his fleet, so it wipes them all out.

Explain to me how a Halo kills life forms, and whether it can bypass capital ship shields.

[ChosenOne54]

[Explain to me how a Halo kills life forms, and whether it can bypass capital ship shields.

That's the point, they completely bypass shielding and armour. Otherwise it would have been an utterly pointless tactic.

As for how they work, pretty sure it is through some superdense neutrino technobabble.

[HMS Sophia]

[Explain to me how a Halo kills life forms, and whether it can bypass capital ship shields.

That's the point, they completely bypass shielding and armour. Otherwise it would have been an utterly pointless tactic.

Will it bypass GE ships shields? Both ray and particle?
And that doesn't answer my question. How do they work? How do they kill all everything everywhere?

[ChosenOne54]

Edited my previous post.

And I see no reason why they wouldn't bypass GE shields.

[HMS Sophia]

And I see no reason why they wouldn't bypass GE shields.

Thanks for the edit
Also, I see no reason why they should bypass GE shields, so there.

(seriously, where is it stated that they bypass shields?)

[ChosenOne54]

IIRC, the only way to escape them through the use of them was through hiding in another dimension or something. Don't ask me how it works, but the idea is that they leave matter unaffected, while destroying the neural systems in your body or something.

[Formless]

All of this discussion, and nobody has brought up the fact that the Forerunners could sent a Halo to Palpatine through slipspace and concentrate it on his fleet, so it wipes them all out.

Because it was already established that a Halo can be fucked up by a modern tactical nuke destroying its structural integrity. Fuck off, you worthless trolling pre-teen turd. Now you're just being dishonest.

No, it hasn't. I asked for sombody to do calcs on that explosion at the end of the cutscene, and I got nothing. So, proof that the explosion has an equivalent yield to a modern day nuke?

You can fucking eyeball that cutscene and tell that it was a nuclear level blast by scale! Hell, looking at it it took out an entire section, which is overkill for the purpose of destabilizing a Halo's structural integrity. You are just plain dumb, mang. That or trolling like a bitch.

[HMS Sophia]

IIRC, the only way to escape them through the use of them was through hiding in another dimension or something. Don't ask me how it works, but the idea is that they leave matter unaffected, while destroying the neural systems in your body or something.

So it's essentially a gigantic neutron bomb? (as far as my physics teacher explained neutron bombs)

Okay, I have thought of something that counters ThePerson5's 'drop a halo on them'.
The Emperor is aboard his flagship. It makes random hyperjumps very rapidly (as in several times a day). It is also prepared to hyperjump at any time. The fleets stay on the move. This is obviously not possible with those elements that need to be stationed near planets, but that's just a fleet, not the emperor.

There you go. The forerunners can no longer find the emperor.

(no that isn't entirely serious, and there are probably lots of problems with it. Oh well)

[ThePerson5]

You can fucking eyeball that cutscene and tell that it was a nuclear level blast by scale! Hell, looking at it it took out an entire section, which is overkill for the purpose of destabilizing a Halo's structural integrity. You are just plain dumb, mang. That or trolling like a bitch.

Yes, and I hope you know that the diameter of a Halo is 10,000km. So, it's hardly just a 'nuclear level blast.'