Illiterate Trekwanker wrote:Biological attacks on another race count as sabotage, subversion or assassination. Biological weapons count as doomsday weapons if used right and that "Banes Cannon" that scared the good doctor sounds like one. STE shows Malcolm trying to get information from Section 31 how to land on Mars undetected. Fact, that they had plans to land on Mars suggest they had at least some shuttlecraft during the 22nd century. If they have a fleet it most likely consists of small starships with powerful sensors and phase cloaking devices. We have no idea how they get rid of threats to the UFP's very survival otherwise.
However, another possibility is to deploy the Omega molecule against the Empire should hyperspace and subspace be the same. It could turn a few hour journey into a decades-long journey for them. That means while the Empire waits for the effects of the Omega particle to wear off, the UFP can utilize phase-cloaked nova bombs to threaten the Empire.
Or shorter
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People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
IIRC, nova bombs aren't even part of the Trek arsenal. Weapons called such exist in Halo, Andromeda and Star Fox, but not within the Trekverse much less phase-cloaked ones. JasonB can't even get his wank right.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
JasonB wrote:Were biological attack counts on another race count sabotage, subersion or assassination. Biological weapon does count dome day weapon if used right and that cannon good Dr scared sore sounds like one. Show Ent show Malcolm try to get information form sector 31 office how to land Mars undetected. Fact they had planning to action Mar suggestion have at least some shuttlecrafts during 22 century. If they fleet most likely made out smell starship powerful sensor and phase cloaking device. We have no idea how get rid threats or way get rid threat UFP very survival.
However another possible UFP surly slow Empire down be the Omega molecule if has hyperspace and subspace are same. It could turn few hour journey few decade journey. Mean Empire trying wait effects of the omega molecule ware off UFP working missiles armed nova bomb and phase cloaking device streamline drive on it threat Empire after effect omega molecule wears off.
What the Hell is this guy's problem? Quite apart from the not-so-occasional grave spelling error, this post demonstrates such a fundamental ignorance of the very basics of grammar as to be nigh unreadable. One has to go by the nouns, since use of verbs and connectives is either royally screwed up or flat out non-existent.
Is he a foreign language speaker making heavy-duty use of Google Translate, or else what? My schoolboy English (second language) was better than this in fifth grade.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
You guys are wondering what is his problem after I've mentioned constantly what kind of a troll he is?
He's not going to be any better. HE. WILL. NOT. CONCEDE.
He'll come up with some other fucked up idea to try to prop up his point that the UFP or the Trek side will win.
As for his way of posting, it has been claimed that he has some form of autism.
ASVS('97)/SDN('03)
"Whilst human alchemists refer to the combustion triangle, some of their orcish counterparts see it as more of a hexagon: heat, fuel, air, laughter, screaming, fun." Dawn of the Dragons
I don't know which I get a bigger laugh from. Seeing the next half-baked scheme Jason comes up with, or the reactions of people who haven't read his gibberish before.
Did he ever propose an answer to the OP, or has he just been wanking since he found this thread? I'm not sure. I can usually (sort of) understand him, but I think he's getting worse lately...
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
Darth Tedious wrote:I don't know which I get a bigger laugh from. Seeing the next half-baked scheme Jason comes up with, or the reactions of people who haven't read his gibberish before.
Did he ever propose an answer to the OP, or has he just been wanking since he found this thread? I'm not sure. I can usually (sort of) understand him, but I think he's getting worse lately...
He goes back and forth from semi-coherent to complete nonsense that even gibberish would make sense.
ASVS('97)/SDN('03)
"Whilst human alchemists refer to the combustion triangle, some of their orcish counterparts see it as more of a hexagon: heat, fuel, air, laughter, screaming, fun." Dawn of the Dragons
Hi all - first post here, although I've been browsing the site for a few months now.
In response to the scenario, obviously the priority is to close the wormhole if possible. If the wormhole cannot be closed then it's just a question of how bad you are going to get beat.
I've often thought about how I would lead a Fed fleet against an Imperial fleet and the best strategy I can think of is to utilise some sort of wolfpack system. I would not create large fleets with my ships as there would be little point. Sending a few hundred Fed ships against a small force of ISD's in open battle is only going to end one way. Instead I would spread the fleet out and try to create a large sensor net. As soon as an Imperial ship is detected then I would order all ships in range to converge on that Imp ship and throw everything they have at it.
For me, the second priority is to try and overcome the speed advantage that the Imp fleet has. One way to try and counteract it is to research ways to detect ships in hyperspace, and find a way of working out their course. If this can be done it might be possible to have ships waiting to meet them at the other end to ambush them.
Something else I've wondered is what sort of effect Borg nano-probes would have on the hull of an ISD...? If they could be configured to destroy the hull, rather than assimilate the hull then they could be a useful weapon. I would imagine delivering these nano-probes on a cloaked projectile, or shuttle that would glide towards the ISD before making a soft impact with the hull releasing the nano-probes. This would require you to know the location of a ISD that did not have it's shields up but it could be a way of taking one down.
sc_owl wrote:
For me, the second priority is to try and overcome the speed advantage that the Imp fleet has. One way to try and counteract it is to research ways to detect ships in hyperspace, and find a way of working out their course. If this can be done it might be possible to have ships waiting to meet them at the other end to ambush them.
Doesn't work either way. First, the speed differential is just too great-let's say you figure out the course of an ISD. Congratulations! You just found out is goes thataway. You can now race ahead to ambush it-at 20,000c, while the ISD is moving at 20 million. Um-no?
But let's assume you manage to find out its destination instead, and in time to get a force of Starfleet ships there to ambush it.
I hope you have a hell of a lot of them, because you're about to put ships with KT to low MT range firepower/shielding against an opponent in the TT to PT range (still talking about that ISD). Not that I think you'll have more luck mobbing Corellian Corvettes, mind you.
Something else I've wondered is what sort of effect Borg nano-probes would have on the hull of an ISD...?
My guess would be none whatsoever? The nano-probes don't seem to do beans to anything but people?
If they could be configured to destroy the hull, rather than assimilate the hull then they could be a useful weapon.
How the hell do you assimilate the hull?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
I think that was a plot device to make the ship look scarier...
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
sc_owl wrote:
For me, the second priority is to try and overcome the speed advantage that the Imp fleet has. One way to try and counteract it is to research ways to detect ships in hyperspace, and find a way of working out their course. If this can be done it might be possible to have ships waiting to meet them at the other end to ambush them.
Doesn't work either way. First, the speed differential is just too great-let's say you figure out the course of an ISD. Congratulations! You just found out is goes thataway. You can now race ahead to ambush it-at 20,000c, while the ISD is moving at 20 million. Um-no?
But let's assume you manage to find out its destination instead, and in time to get a force of Starfleet ships there to ambush it.
I hope you have a hell of a lot of them, because you're about to put ships with KT to low MT range firepower/shielding against an opponent in the TT to PT range (still talking about that ISD). Not that I think you'll have more luck mobbing Corellian Corvettes, mind you.
Something else I've wondered is what sort of effect Borg nano-probes would have on the hull of an ISD...?
My guess would be none whatsoever? The nano-probes don't seem to do beans to anything but people?
If they could be configured to destroy the hull, rather than assimilate the hull then they could be a useful weapon.
How the hell do you assimilate the hull?
Nano-probes do assimilate ships though, do they not? My wording was a bit lazy when I referred to the hull. What I meant was; they were configured to destroy S8472 ships - although they were bio-ships... I was wondering if they could be designed to attack the hull on an atomic level, but meh... maybe they can't...
With respect to the speed issue - that's why I suggested some form of wolf pack system. I'm not suggesting chasing the Imp fleet across the galaxy, but if you get a few minutes warning they are approaching then that is better than no warning whatsoever, giving one a chance to call in ships in the area to help.
I can't see anyway that the Empire can be defeated here, but there may be ways they can be made to fight a little harder.
Metahive wrote:IIRC, nova bombs aren't even part of the Trek arsenal. Weapons called such exist in Halo, Andromeda and Star Fox, but not within the Trekverse much less phase-cloaked ones. JasonB can't even get his wank right.
I believe subspace is same hyperspace UFP use a few Omega molecule they denied Empire the ability start war UFP for a few decades. Give time UFP build missiles phase cloaking device, warhead of trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter to make star go blow up.
No, wait, I've got it! The perfect strategem for the UFP!
They go back in time, pluck JasonB from whatever depressing hovel he resides in, and then hooks him up to a technobabble generator that is fed by his ignorance, insanity and appalling language skills.
With this amazing new power source, the E-E is able to fly around the galaxies at billions of times c, firing trillion-exaton phasers and having shields that can effortlessly shrug off supernova explosions and gamma-ray burts at point-blank range.
INSTANT WIN FOR UFP!!!!!111
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Destructionator XIII wrote:Well, the Borg did do something to the Enterprise itself in the First Contact film. There were borgified halls and engineering.
They did something to VOY in 'Scorpion' too, and if memory serves those modifications were explicitly called modifications. No assimilation mentioned. VOY remained VOY, without her hull crying to rejoin the Collective.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Eternal_Freedom, that would fail on the grounds that his sheer ineptitude with the English language and overall insanity would cause everybody in the Federation to commit suicide or go insane.
"I'm just reading through your formspring here, and your responses to many questions seem to indicate that you are ready and willing to sacrifice realism/believability for the sake of (sometimes) marginal increases in gameplay quality. Why is this?"
"Because until I see gamers sincerely demanding that if they get winged in the gut with a bullet that they spend the next three hours bleeding out on the ground before permanently dying, they probably are too." - J.E. Sawyer
Damn, you're right. Oh well, that would just make it even more amusing: He tries to sacrifice his own linguistic skills and massive stupidity to save the Federation and it winds up killing everyone. Ha. Empire still wins
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
The UFP will use JasonB as a WMD. He's too dumb to die and the crap he spews from his mouth kills off braincells in a one LY radius.
Stuff him in a torpedo launcher and toss him in the middle of an Imperial Fleet and watch them kill themselves. Afterwards, pick him up, tape his mouth shut until ready to launch him again.
ASVS('97)/SDN('03)
"Whilst human alchemists refer to the combustion triangle, some of their orcish counterparts see it as more of a hexagon: heat, fuel, air, laughter, screaming, fun." Dawn of the Dragons
Obviously we want to close the wormhole, for the (completely unanticipated by the OP) win.
1) We form up and send the biggest fleet we possibly can to attack it. This fleet is told it's mission is to destroy the wormhole, not the fleet (like in chess, your mission is to checkmate the king, not take the pieces).
However, we can only assume that the Empire realises the importance of the wormhole too, and they will defend it. The fleet will get murdered, and the chance of getting someone through to blow up the wormhole is very slight.
2) So we send in a small group of cloaked ships from another direction to take advantage of the distraction of the battle.
However, I believe it is assumed for these things that both sides are aware of the others abilities, therefore the Empire knows about cloaks. To assume they wont be expecting such a ploy is to assume they are stupid, and as someone said in a book I read "Any plan that relies upon the stupidity of your opponent for success is a bad plan"
3) So before all this we send in a "traitor", maybe from the well-loved Section 31. He will have as full as is reasonable information about (1) and (2) for a well-placed starfleet officer, which he wants to sell for money and power in the new government. He also has extensive knowledge about the Klingon, Cardassian, Romulan, etc, fleets and locations, (more on this later). Ideally he's a shapeshifter, or at least some other race with a natural edge for espionage. His actual job is to somehow destroy the wormhole from the Empire side, seizing a ship, rigging one on a routine pass through to explode, something. He doesn't know about...
4) A number more of cloaked ships, coming in on different vector, including a few hiding amongst the battle fleet in the hope of using the fire and fury of the battle to blind any ways of detecting cloaked ships (risking getting hit by a stray turbo laser or phasor, but what can you do?)
5) Any phase-cloaked ships able to be put into space. It may be a prototype, it may not work, but lets give it a shot. It may be best to send these soon after the battle, when the Empire assumes that's it for a little while and they're cleaning up.
Meanwhile
6) Do attempt to approach Q, and any others of these demi-god races. Who knows? Maybe Q would like to see Picard dance naked down the main street.
7) Prepare for the aftermath. Even if we win, Star Fleet will be almost destroyed, something that the Cardassians, Romulans, etc, are sure to notice. This is why the "traitor" gave info on their fleets (the stranded Empire ships might want to destroy the threat to themselves). However, the crews on the initial (doomed) armada were as skeleton as possible, and as many veteran officers and crew replaced with novices as possible without lowering performance too much to be credible.
These men will form the crew for the (purely war)ships we are building as fast as possible to try to protect ourselves in the aftermath. They could even form the nucleus of the fifth column if all attempts to close the wormhole fail.
The End
I call it the "Kitchen Sink" approach.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor
What a great idea! Using biological doomsday weapons to crush the Empire! Kill all humans!
Of course, seeing as they have a 1337 fleet of phase-cloaking ships, they won't even need to!
What has this guy been smoking?
Well, if things got to the point where "Mutually Assured Destruction" was considered a legitimate option, wiping out all humans might be considered. Not that I would advocate such for a second, nor do I believe the Federation could nessissarily pull it off, but wiping out all humans might actually mean a very costly win for the Federation.
The Empire is ruled by a human, who's chief subordinates (other than Thrawn and maybe one or two others) are human. Their cloned troops are human. The vast majority of their recruits appear to be human.
Now, the Federation is a whole other matter. It has about 150 member worlds, most or all of which other than Earth will likely be alien. Some of its alien members (ie Vulcan, Andor) were regional powers before the Federation according to Enterprise. While Starfleet is predominantly human, it is far from being as homogenous as the Empire appears to be.
In conclusion, while the death of all humans would most certainly destroy the Empire, there is a chance the Federation would actually survive it. A rather morbid train of thought, I'll grant you, but there it is.
The largely human-centric Starfleet would suffer greatly from such a loss though.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
Metahive wrote:The largely human-centric Starfleet would suffer greatly from such a loss though.
Granted. The Imperial military would suffer more though. Trek has references to some all Vulcan vessels, and some ships probably have enough aliens to keep running on a skeleton crew. Hell, there appears to be at least one Vulcan admiral (in the DS9 Episode where they're planning the recapture of DS9, the group of officers Sisko pitches his plan to includes a Vulcan woman I think). They'd suffer horrible losses, but it wouldn't be the complete obliteration of the organization that would occur if all humans in the Imperial fleet were wiped out.
I doubt even Section 31 would be willing to wipe out all mankind to win though. It might make an interesting fanfic premise, however, if say the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order unleashed such a disease as a desperation tactic.
Even if it was a 90% loss for Starfleet, the Empire would be completely devastated. The only thing which would save them would be if there were any levels of gemetic differentiation in humans from around the GFFA (for example, if Mandalorians were not completely human, the Jango clones would be immune). This seems unlikely, though.
"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw
"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark
"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy
As I see it the prime challenge would be to spread the agent far enough to make itself felt. The agent also would have to act quick enough to eliminate the imperial threat in time but slow enough to avoid premature detection. The Founders made it easy by being so devoted to sharing everything with each other, the Empire however might even impose a quarantine over the people dealing with the Trekverse just out of cautious principle.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
Metahive wrote:Sisko also once served under a Vulcan captain.
As I see it the prime challenge would be to spread the agent far enough to make itself felt. The agent also would have to act quick enough to eliminate the imperial threat in time but slow enough to avoid premature detection. The Founders made it easy by being so devoted to sharing everything with each other, the Empire however might even impose a quarantine over the people dealing with the Trekverse just out of cautious principle.
I don't think they'd go so far as to quarintine everyone from the Star Trek Galaxy, but they probably have procedures for dealing with pandemics.
However, I think the speed of Hyperdrive and the crowded conditions on planets like Coruscant would aid the spread of a pandemic.
The question is how could they administer the biological agent most effectively? IMHO the biggest chance of success would have an infiltrator tainting the food rations onboard a starship, maybe on a supply freighter. Does anyone know how tight imperial security in this regard is?
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
What the Hell is this guy's problem? Quite apart from the not-so-occasional grave spelling error, this post demonstrates such a fundamental ignorance of the very basics of grammar as to be nigh unreadable. One has to go by the nouns, since use of verbs and connectives is either royally screwed up or flat out non-existent.
