Star Wars Universe vs. Halo Universe

[ThePerson5]

1) Base. Delta. Zero. Cocksucker.

Okay... well, reducing the surface of a planet to rubble vs. destroying entire Halos, lifting chunks of crust out and using them as fly-swatters, slipspace weaponry which can't be blocked by shields, and blowing up stars.

2) No, they fucking aren't, as was pointed out by Norad last time you posted this horseshit. You know, that thread a month ago you posted but never apparently read?

So you don't actually have any counter-arguments? Good to know.

3) Okay, fucktard, do you know how big a planet is? And what it would take to create an effective blockade or siege around one? Read an astronomy book sometime, you mouth breathing little twerp.

Yes, so proof that the number of ships is in the 10,000s? Even if it was, a fleet of that size is not impressive to the Forerunners.

And you still haven't addressed the issue of the Halos. Or the general superiority of Forerunner FTL, industry, or... anything.

[ThePerson5]

Or do you mean where I got the width? I have no clue, I closed it once I had the figure, and I can't be fucked to go find it. If you want to dispute my width figure, show me the ring is wider, or point me at a source for the width.

That estimate is frankly retarded.




The diameter of the ring is 10,000km. The ring width can't be simply 20-30km. It must be at least a couple hundred.

[The Grim Squeaker]

It bears thought that the minimal structural and tensile strength of a Halo ring could doubtless be calculated, although this would be a VERY low end estimate due to the lack of information about rotational speed. (The tensile strength required for a Niven Ringworld is known, but that's utterly useless - a Ringworld has 1e3-1e4 times the diameter).

Also, the Flood broke out among Humans and Prophets, not the forerunners. The biological elements that led to it were analyzed with a fine tooth sieve, and were harmless (or so it seemed) for many, many generation. (And was used on a type of common pet, making it fluffier and more amiable). It changed, and wasn't detected until the affected creatures were mutating and spreading in a type of hive mind, despite future genetic technology going over it when it was just in vial form.
It's super tech. (Literally Ancient super tech). You might as well complain about how wanky the Centerpoint system is, or the impossibility of energy storage sufficient for the Death Star..
The SW wankery in this thread is absurd. (And as a sidenote - The Empire got defeated by the Rebels . Feel free to continue wanking over how the Forerunners must have sucked if they got stalemated by acts of god, the Flood, Precursor Technology, and their defense systems being subverted. [Oh, and IG-88 Took over the Death Star 2 ]).

[Vympel]

Okay... well, reducing the surface of a planet to rubble vs. destroying entire Halos

And? So what? If you wish to rely on this as somehow proving something - I suggest you get to work. With some actual figures, based on solid evidence, reasoning, and numbers.

Because so far, all I've seen from you is confirmation you're a fucking moron:- you assume your conclusion (i.e. destroying Halos is hard) as a premise and then challenge your opposition to disprove your absurd assumption that the explosion of the primitive Pillar of Autmun was a titanically energetic event - from mere fusion reactors.

That won't fly.

So you don't actually have any counter-arguments? Good to know.

Given your arguments are at this stage a veritable host of lazy, unsubstantiated claims and relying on non-evidence, I find this statement amusing.

Yes, so proof that the number of ships is in the 10,000s? Even if it was, a fleet of that size is not impressive to the Forerunners.

I believe this idiotic argument has already been handily refuted. Did you even read the relevant posts? Or are you simply asking to be banned for dishonesty and ignoring counterarguments?

Here

and

Here

And you still haven't addressed the issue of the Halos.

Yes it has.

Or the general superiority of Forerunner FTL

Excuse me? How have you established the superiority of Forerunner FTL? Leaving aside the stunning vagueness of the quote you think establishes this, are you simply ignorant of hyperdrive speeds, such as Palpatine's insane trip from Coruscant to Mustafar - a distance in excess of 53,000LY, that couldn't have taken more than half an hour per the chronology of the film and the novel? Or Darth Maul's comparatively pedestrian class .2 hyperdrive went from Coruscant to Tatooine (in excess of 33,000LY) in at most 18 hours (i.e. travelled from Coruscant to Tatooine in the space of noon the day before the podrace to pre-dawn the day of the race)?

[HMS Sophia]

Not an official source, but [url=http://www.Gama%20sutra.com/view/feature/1462/halo_science_101.php?print1]this[/url] mentions 320 kilometers:

I'll run with that. With the blast effects calculator on this site (i find it through google), I get 310km's with a 3000 megaton blast.
That is big, however it's not incredible and is in fact small compared to the capabilities of GE weaponry. And that's with the ship exploding, not it's weapons or anything.

[Imperial528]

Since the issue of the explosion size is still up, I'll throw in my two cents.

I recently re-watched the cinematic (beat CE on heroic at last), and there are three points of interest as the MC is flying away in a longsword:

1. A large flash of light, which has been assumed to be the Autumn's slipspace drive going up with the rest of the ship.
2. A large fireball immediately after that. If this were a product of the Autumn's explosion as well, it would point to impossibly massive power generation. (I used the main sites' calc, you need something like 3 teratons to hit a minimum fireball radius of 160.)
3. A fireball of similar size and magnitude occurs when the chunk of ring that the Autumn was on hits the other side of the ring.

However, given that there is a second explosion of the same size at the other end of the ring, I think the best hypotheses is that the Autumn's slipspace drive damaged a power system near its location in the ring, which in turn went super critical, causing the large explosion we see. If a similar system was on the other side of the ring, we would get another explosion as it went super critical when the chunk crashed into it. And that's exactly what we see.

[Srelex]

Regarding Coruscant fleet numbers, wasn't it mentioned as plain 'thousands' in the DVD commentary IIRC? I guess maybe if you took the 2003 CW series you might have better support for that.

[ThePerson5]

And? So what? If you wish to rely on this as somehow proving something - I suggest you get to work. With some actual figures, based on solid evidence, reasoning, and numbers.

Because so far, all I've seen from you is confirmation you're a fucking moron:- you assume your conclusion (i.e. destroying Halos is hard) as a premise and then challenge your opposition to disprove your absurd assumption that the explosion of the primitive Pillar of Autmun was a titanically energetic event - from mere fusion reactors.

Here, some calcs on the destruction of the Halo:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... stcount=16

Also this:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... stcount=37

I believe this idiotic argument has already been handily refuted. Did you even read the relevant posts? Or are you simply asking to be banned for dishonesty and ignoring counterarguments?

Here

and

Here

That argument between chosen and norade was already addressed previous in the thread, as chosen pretty much admitted that he didn't know much about the forerunners at the time. The total number of Forerunners has nothing to do with the numbers of the Empire anyway.

The second link is utterly irrelevant. Sure... the Empire may have a couple million ships. That isn't proof that there were tens of thousands of ships in the battle of Coruscant. So, no, you haven't provided any real counter-arguments to this point.

Yes it has.

No, he hasn't. He basically ignored the whole 'hundred kilometre across fireball' argument I posted, simply choosing to repeatedly say 'lul, it's equivalent to a nuke, I don't have to prove it though.'

[Vympel]

Here, some calcs on the destruction of the Halo:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... stcount=16

Which contains a: a made up invention, (i.e. "by brute force") and also massive fucking ignorance - are you truly so stupid that you think an explosion in space is quantifiable by virtue to SDN's fireball / yield calculator?

That argument between chosen and norade was already addressed previous in the thread, as chosen pretty much admitted that he didn't know much about the forerunners at the time. The total number of Forerunners has nothing to do with the numbers of the Empire anyway.

The second link is utterly irrelevant. Sure... the Empire may have a couple million ships. That isn't proof that there were tens of thousands of ships in the battle of Coruscant. So, no, you haven't provided any real counter-arguments to this point.

Are you incapable of understanding English? I explicitly said in that post that its this silly bullshit about nitpicking Coruscant that's irrelevant to the point. You know, in the thread you made?

"Sure, fleet numbers of the Empire have been roughly established, which are exactly on point in regards to the OP, but you haven't proven anything about a completely irrelevant single battle of the Clone Wars that occured before the Empire even existed!"

No, he hasn't. He basically ignored the whole 'hundred kilometre across fireball' argument I posted, simply choosing to repeatedly say 'lul, it's equivalent to a nuke, I don't have to prove it though.'

You didn't post any argument, you made a naked assertion.

[Shroom Man 777]

What the fuck do Battle of Coruscant fleet numbers matter anyway? Vympel has posted relevant numbers of Imperial warships.

[ThePerson5]

Which contains a: a made up invention, (i.e. "by brute force") and also massive fucking ignorance - are you truly so stupid that you think an explosion in space is quantifiable by virtue to SDN's fireball / yield calculator?

I added a second link. There's also this link posted earlier on, which basically went ignored.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=168590

I'll find more...

Are you incapable of understanding English? I explicitly said in that post that its this silly bullshit about nitpicking Coruscant that's irrelevant to the point. You know, in the thread you made?

"Sure, fleet numbers of the Empire have been roughly established, which are exactly on point in regards to the OP, but you haven't proven anything about a completely irrelevant single battle of the Clone Wars that occured before the Empire even existed!"

And I don't care. Formless seemed to claim that the battle of Coruscant had fleets numbering in the 10,000s, and nobody has bothered to provide proof of this yet. You seem to be simply shifting the argument over in a different direction.

You didn't post any argument, you made a naked assertion.

Right. Sure. If you say so.

[Vympel]

I added a second link. There's also this link posted earlier on, which basically went ignored.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=168590

I'll find more...

Your parroting of any posts you can find on another forum to somehow make your arguments for you without a hint of original thought or effort is not good enough. I suggest you correct your behavior and start actually justifying your existence by making your own arguments by reference to evidence, not just copying the posts of others - bereft of all context no less - and acting like you've demonstrated something.

And I don't care. Formless seemed to claim that the battle of Coruscant had fleets numbering in the 10,000s, and nobody has bothered to provide proof of this yet.

Who the fuck cares if there is or isn't? Its not relevant to the thread. This red herring ceases.

You seem to be simply shifting the argument over in a different direction.

You mean a direction where it actually has something to do with the fucking OP, which is the Empire at its height?

I decide where the argument goes here, and this red herring about Coruscant will cease. Immediately. Do you get me? Formless' claim about ship numbers of the Battle of Coruscant is not relevant, and can be ignored.

Right. Sure. If you say so.

That would usually be the time when you try and dispute that. Given that you're so useless you were taken in by a ludicrously idiotic 'calculation' that thought a nuclear fireball in atmosphere calculator was relevant to an explosion that was in no way at all similar in any department seems to tell me that you're incapable of same.

[ThePerson5]

Well then, Churl, I suggest you berate formless, as it was him who brought the debate off topic.

And why would I do my own calcs when they have already been done for me? It's so convenient!

[Panzersharkcat]

Or Darth Maul's comparatively pedestrian class .2 hyperdrive went from Coruscant to Tatooine (in excess of 33,000LY) in at most 18 hours (i.e. travelled from Coruscant to Tatooine in the space of noon the day before the podrace to pre-dawn the day of the race)?

Not that it really matters but the Scimitar had a class 1.5 hyperdrive. Having a class .2 hyperdrive would mean it's faster than the Millennium Falcon. But yeah, that's pretty much bog standard. (For some reason, I remember the main site saying the Scimitar's hyperdrive was a class 3, much much slower.)

[The Grim Squeaker]

Or Darth Maul's comparatively pedestrian class .2 hyperdrive went from Coruscant to Tatooine (in excess of 33,000LY) in at most 18 hours (i.e. travelled from Coruscant to Tatooine in the space of noon the day before the podrace to pre-dawn the day of the race)?

Not that it really matters but the Scimitar had a class 1.5 hyperdrive. Having a class .2 hyperdrive would mean it's faster than the Millennium Falcon. But yeah, that's pretty much bog standard. (For some reason, I remember the main site saying the Scimitar's hyperdrive was a class 3, much much slower.)

It's a shame the illustrated guides give that, as the speeds shown by the private stealth ships of Sith Lords are much higher than most benchmarks in the rest of the universe. (Hours to cross the galaxy as opposed to days in most sources, ranging to weeks at worst).
Unfortunately, there's more evidence to argue against that than there is to make the speculation, despite how logical it might be. (Come on - The private shuttle of Darth Sidious, the richest, most powerful, most secretive being being in the galaxy with access to Sith tricks and prototypes that most sentients can't even image could easily be an outlier. Except that it lacks evidence to argue it).

[Vympel]

It's a shame the illustrated guides give that, as the speeds shown by the private stealth ships of Sith Lords are much higher than most benchmarks in the rest of the universe. (Hours to cross the galaxy as opposed to days in most sources, ranging to weeks at worst).

There's some sources that indicate days to make various trips, but those are easily accounted for re: differences in the regions being travelled (since it is relevant to hyperdrive) - and to characterize it as "most sources" is IMO inaccurate. There's plenty of trips that indicate speeds well in excess of days even in the lower order evidence.

Unfortunately, there's more evidence to argue against that than there is to make the speculation, despite how logical it might be. (Come on - The private shuttle of Darth Sidious, the richest, most powerful, most secretive being being in the galaxy with access to Sith tricks and prototypes that most sentients can't even image could easily be an outlier. Except that it lacks evidence to argue it).

Obi-Wan's Eta-2 Actis went from Utapau to Coruscant in a matter of mere hours to call the fleet to Utapau (remember, Obi-Wan took his fighter from the fleet in orbit of Coruscant, the fleet stayed behind), another multi-ten-thousand (in excess of 41,000LY) light-year trip, and Palpatine's shuttle didn't go the whole way to Mustafar by itself, it lacks the range. It would've taken a Star Destroyer, same way Vader and the Emperor got to the Death Star 2.

In essence, there's no reason at all to believe any of the best trips are exceptional or particular to somehow fantastically unique craft.

[ChosenOne54]

While we are on the topic of speed, I just want to point out that the Ark was 240,000 lightyears from the galactic centre, and using a Forerunner slipspace portal, and in Halo 3, the UNSC and Covenant managed to reach there from Earth in... seconds?

This means they travelled at least 200,000 lightyears.

[doom3607]

But such a portal isn't necessarily equivalent to an FTL drive. I have not actually played the game, so don't take my word for it, but from the sound of it, it's more equivalent to a Stargate-like system than an FTL engine.

[ChosenOne54]

Forerunner FTL (actually, basically everything in Halo), is based off of slipspace portals though. There is some technobabble about creating ultra-mini black holes which tear a portal open into slipspace and allow you to travel FTL.

[Shroom Man 777]

Don't those slipspace portals have to be installed on two fixed points? Which is about as useful in a vs. as bringing up how intergalactic travel happens in seconds with sufficiently boosted stargates in Stargate Atlantis when we're comparing the FTL speed of a Goa'uld pyramid ship and a ISD or something. You'll need to bring your slippy stargate to the SW galaxy, if they're to have any relevance in invading the galaxy.

[ChosenOne54]

No, I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Slipspace basically seems to be hyperspace.

Only purple!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173 ... Portal.jpg

[Boeing 757]

Don't those slipspace portals have to be installed on two fixed points? Which is about as useful in a vs. as bringing up how intergalactic travel happens in seconds with sufficiently boosted stargates in Stargate Atlantis when we're comparing the FTL speed of a Goa'uld pyramid ship and a ISD or something. You'll need to bring your slippy stargate to the SW galaxy, if they're to have any relevance in invading the galaxy.

From what I gather, they have a network of gateways which enables them to teleport nearly instananeously between selected arrays or locations. As such, it suffers from the same kind of exposed vulnerability to mass assault as do FTL transit systems like the Borg's transwarp-hubs. I see no reason thus why Imperial Intelligence can not find the location of every one of their portals and thereby allow the Empire to destroy the vast majority of them, leaving them with no FTL capability at all.

[Shroom Man 777]

http://www.halopedian.com/Slipspace_portal

Slipspace portals are a method of slipstream space transit developed by the Forerunners. Essentially a large-scale application of slipspace translocation, slipspace portals are designed to transport enormous amounts of mass between two fixed points on a continuing basis.[1][2] Typically, portals appear as pitch black holes into slipspace, surrounded by blue or violet energy and supported by a web of hard light.[3][4]

Large constructs, such as the Halo installations, could be transported across interstellar distances through the use of portals. The transition of such a large object would slow down other slipspace traffic in the entire galaxy.[5] While designed for large-scale transit, portals have a limited transit capacity and can be strained or even destroyed if this capacity is exceeded.[6] Portals also have a system that filters unnecessary objects such as debris, discarding them into the volume of slipspace.[7]

The Forerunners had a network of portals that allowed fast passage throughout their ecumene. Some systems, including that of the capital, had portal installations that connected to multiple worlds.[4] The Librarian used an array of portals to travel to the worlds where she collected the various species of the galaxy for indexing at the Ark. The same network was used to transport the Halo rings.[8] The generator device for one such portal was buried near the town of Voi on Earth.

Looks like it is the case.

[ChosenOne54]

My mistake, it is the case.

From what I gather, they have a network of gateways which enables them to teleport nearly instananeously between selected arrays or locations. As such, it suffers from the same kind of exposed vulnerability to mass assault as do FTL transit systems like the Borg's transwarp-hubs. I see no reason thus why Imperial Intelligence can not find the location of every one of their portals and thereby allow the Empire to destroy the vast majority of them, leaving them with no FTL capability at all.

Um, this is completely wrong. Fixed portals are not their only method of FTL. Their standard ships have slipspace drives, much like standard Star Wars ships can travel through hyperspace. They are slower than portals, yes, but still very fast as evidenced by the quotes in the OP. Anyway... how exactly the the Empire going to 'destroy' a portal? It's not a solid object... it's a portal.

[Boeing 757]

My mistake, it is the case.

From what I gather, they have a network of gateways which enables them to teleport nearly instananeously between selected arrays or locations. As such, it suffers from the same kind of exposed vulnerability to mass assault as do FTL transit systems like the Borg's transwarp-hubs. I see no reason thus why Imperial Intelligence can not find the location of every one of their portals and thereby allow the Empire to destroy the vast majority of them, leaving them with no FTL capability at all.

Um, this is completely wrong. Fixed portals are not their only method of FTL. Their standard ships have slipspace drives, much like standard Star Wars ships can travel through hyperspace. They are slower than portals, yes, but still very fast as evidenced by the quotes in the OP.

So basically their slipspace drive used by their ships will not have much of a speed advantage over hyperdrive. In fact, since the quote provided is rather vague on how long and how far they traveled, it is hard to determine how fast exactly their ship-standard FTL is.

Anyway... how exactly the the Empire going to 'destroy' a portal? It's not a solid object... it's a portal.

Who said any thing about destroying the portal itself? They're created by generators, yes? All that the Empire really needs to do is to blow up their gateways and that should end the portals. Or hell, since we know that the accuracy of slipspace travel is affected by gravity, if they wanted them intact while denying them to the Forerunners the Empire could station an Interdictor cruiser with an accompanying fleet nearby said portals, and there would be jack-all that the Forerunners could do to use them.