BREAKING NEWS: Explosion at Norway Prime Ministers Office

[Sea Skimmer]

The death toll on Utoeya island was just revised down to 68, and the number killed in Oslo raised to 8 at a police new conference.

[Metahive]

Since I never insinuated anywhere that religion alone is to blame I reject your criticism wholesale. I said that just declaring such people to be complete anomalies (by among other things prematurely"excommunicating" them) is lazy and unhelpful.

It helps to read my posts carefully before getting into an angry rant.

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, they are anomalies. If they weren't, then every religious person, politically active person, poor person, rich person, or whatever person associated with any group would be committing the same violent acts that only an extreme minority of human beings in those groups have done. The acts of this guy, or OBL, have as much bearing to the rest of the religulonists who've never done a harmful thing as eco-terrorists who spike trees do to vegetarians who've never hijacked Japanese whaling ships.

[Metahive]

Did I anywhere insinuate that their actions reflect upon the rest of the faithful? No, I even said that their idea of their faiths might be completely different from the majority. That however doesn't mean they're fakes who worked in a vacuum which is the sole purpose of invoking "no true believer". Once again, there's no such thing as a "true Christian" or "true Muslim", there's no point to invoking it other than to make them into "others" that can be brushed off as total accidents! It's like saying Stalin was no true communist or Hitler no true German (well he was born in Austria).

I mean you do know the No True Scotsman fallacy of which this is a vairation of, right?

If they weren't, then every religious person, politically active person, poor person, rich person, or whatever person associated with any group would be committing the same violent acts that only an extreme minority of human beings in those groups have done. The acts of this guy, or OBL, have as much bearing to the rest of the religulonists who've never done a harmful thing as eco-terrorists who spike trees do to vegetarians who've never hijacked Japanese whaling ships.

Anomalous christians/muslims but christians/muslims nonetheless. Unless someone digs up photos of them worshiping Krishna or Cthulhu I'll consider them to be what they say. That however doesn't mean I blame all they did just on their religious convictions and I strongly object to any further strawmanning of my opinion into this caricature.

[Shroom Man 777]

Mmm, yes, I admit that I jumped reflexively on your last post since I was assuming that you were saying something similar to your response to General Dung Beams or Lionel Dickface or whoever that was in that other thread where some moron talked about European Christianity or liberal Christianity or something in the Netherlands and I thought that you were talking about the same thing re: the evils of religulon.

[Tiriol]

Have I misunderstood things? I thought that the scumbag was a member of a Masonic lodge. I was under the impression that the Catholic Church is vehemently opposed to any Masonic activity, considering it a filthy heresy of the worst kind. If these things are true, Pope has no reason to apologize on the murderer's behalf: from his point of view the man is a heretic not fit to enter a church without some thorough holy cleansing first.

[Metahive]

There are many things for which the Pope should apologize, but I don't remember anyone here demanding he do it on behalf of Breivik considering he claims to be protestant in his manifesto, albeit one who wishes for protestantism and catholicism to re-unite.

[Simon_Jester]

One would expect the "no true Christian" defense for the same reasons that the vast majority of Muslims are not evil terrorist madmen: normal people of any religion will see and reject such actions, and do not believe that their religious beliefs could permit such a terrible thing.

Totally besides the point which is that there's no such thing as a "true Christian" or "true Muslim" and therefore the invocation of such nought but a feeble attempt to avoid having to reflect more about the perpetrator of atrocities and his potential motivations by making him into an "other". It's just so much easier to claim that he was a "counterfeit believer" as well as insane and pretend that everything he did happened in a complete vacuum.

No, Breivik is a christian and OBL was a muslim, their interpretation of their faiths might be different from most other adherents but that's still not sufficient reason to just "disown" them and declare them complete anomalies, that's just laziness that won't help trying to prevent the occurence of such things in the future.

Trying to hang Breivik on Christianity reminds me too strongly of trying to hang Stalin on atheism.

It's just not that simple, Metahive. I'm sure that in each case, the man sincerely held the corresponding stance on religion- Breivik believes in Jesus Christ, bin Laden believed in the prophet Muhammed, and Stalin believed that there was no god. But in each case, the man is not a representative of the belief system. And insofar as there is a coherent, internally consistent core to the belief system, in each case the man doesn't fit inside that core: he's a fringe loony, of the sort that can take any cause at all and turn it into something loathsome.

Breivik's religious views only deserve scrutiny if there are a large group of people who share those views and go almost but not quite as far into murderous absurdity with them. Ditto for his political views. In my opinion, the political views are more at issue than religion- insofar as militant Catholicism is a force in modern politics, it's so closely allied to specific political factions (like anti-immigration movements) that it becomes a political and not a religious force. Going terrorist-hunting among the Christian churches on account of Breivik's actions is a waste of time; there are better ways to find people who might imitate him.

The real threat is political- look at the disturbing number of people who agree with Breivik's politics, or say "I don't support violence BUT..." and take that one step too far. They're the ones you want to worry about, regardless of their beliefs on the question of big men in the sky.


For bin Laden, the reverse is true- his entire political stance was cast in terms of his religion, and justified in those terms. He mixed political and religious appeals seamlessly on a regular basis. And yes it makes sense to apply some careful attention to Muslim factions which come close to endorsing terrorism, such as the Wahhabists. However, it does not make sense to try and use bin Laden to discredit all Muslims- and, by extension, it makes even less sense to try and use Breivik to discredit all Christians.

In the case of Stalin, the situation is even more obvious than Breivik: Stalin didn't kill people on account of not believing in gods. He killed people because he was ruthless, ambitious, and paranoid, and would no doubt have been as big a murderer in a theocracy, given the opportunity.

[Metahive]

Have you read the last four of my replies in this thread or is that another exercise in "Simon only sees what he wants to see"?

I'm not going to fucking bother to repeat myself.

[Irbis]

There is apparently a Polish connection:Article in Polish

Google translation, but I'd rather hear from our Polish members (PeZook et al) on what it says. The Google translation does seem to be more legible than many I've read, but for obvious reasons I'm loath to trust it without the requisite amount of salt.

It says someone in Poland was arrested for selling him some chemicals used in bomb, because of Norwegian request. However, one of the comments says it turned out to be untrue, I don't know which side is right, I'll check in the morning.

[Zaune]

There's also been talk of a link to the English Defence League, though it's extremely tenuous; apparently Breivik corresponded with a few EDL members through some neo-Nazi forum or other.

Oh, and here's Glenn Beck's take on the incident.

[Simon_Jester]

Have you read the last four of my replies in this thread or is that another exercise in "Simon only sees what he wants to see"?

I'm not going to fucking bother to repeat myself.

I'm still not sure I understand what, exactly, your original point was in saying:

I think the "not a true Christian" defence is imminent.

They're already there on other web forums like spiegel.de. "The Bible says Thou Shalt Not Kill and he killed, therefore he isn't a Christian" (paraphrased) and similar BS...

Aside, of course, from trying to hang Breivik on Christianity- "we need to look at radical Christian groups to spot potential terrorists" or some such.

Was there some other point you were getting at? If so, I'm sorry; I must have missed it.

[SpaceMarine93]

Blowing up buildings...

Butchering civilians, children even, with automatic weapons...

Of His Own People!

Oh dear God, how can anyone do something like this?

[madd0ct0r]

Blowing up buildings...

Butchering civilians, children even, with automatic weapons...

Of His Own People!

Oh dear God, how can anyone do something like this?

with a reasonalbe amount of planning and fore-thought, the aforementioned automatic weapons, 3 tonnes of fertiliser and a fake police uniform.

oh, and a complete disregard for human life.

[Zaune]

with a reasonalbe amount of planning and fore-thought, the aforementioned automatic weapons, 3 tonnes of fertiliser and a fake police uniform.

oh, and a complete disregard for human life.

Of course, a couple of these are extremely rare qualities.

I mean, fertilliser's not cheap these days. And the police tend to take a dim view of people making accurate replica uniforms.

[Metahive]

Simon, it's not that complicated. As I explained, attempts to simply turn Breivik into a historical accident with declarations like "no true christian", "he's insane" or "he's no true right-winger" etc. fail because Breivik didn't commit his actions in a vacuum, he didn't just get up one day and decided spontaneously to shoot up a bunch of people. One must look how far certain factors influenced his decisions and yes, religion is one of the factors that needs scrutiny. Maybe it didn't influence all that much but that's something that needs to be found out and not prematurely declared off-limits by "disowning" him.
Christians saying that they don't agree with Breivik's idea of their faith is NOT automatically an invocation of "no true christian", I guess that's where your hang-up occurred. I mean, you do know that "no true christian" is just a variation of "no true scotsman", ie an attempt to arbitrarily narrow definitions down after the fact, right?

[Norseman]

Speaking of the sentence the latest news is that the Norwegian police is considering sentencing him for crimes against humanity. To wit:

§ 102. Crimes against humanity

For crimes against humanity the person is punished who, as part of a widespread or systematic attack against a civilian population,

a) kills a person
...
h) persecutes an identifiable group by depriving one or more members of the group basic human rights based on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender or other grounds against international law
...
The penalty for crimes against humanity is prison for up to 30 years.

So yeah, up from 21 years. Not quite sure if this guy qualifies or not, it will be interesting to see.

Bad google translation of Norwegian article on the subject.

[Bright]

Oh, and here's Glenn Beck's take on the incident.

You've got to be shitting me. The Hitler Youth. I can't even tell whether that's more offensive or ignorant.

[weemadando]

Both would be my first answer.

[Metahive]

So what's the one thing that Glenn Beck considers to be the decisive difference between him and Breivik? Not the murderous urges, not the hatred of immigrants, not the misogyny, no, it's that Breivik is "pro-big government".

Glenn, you stink.

[Rogue 11]

I'm outraged, but not surprised, paying attention to the news tilt in the far right media you notice that they were trending that way.

Which is why this Norwegian is now considering Fox News and their ilk to be supporting terrorism as long as it's done by the right terrorists. As far as I'm concerned being a terrorist action or a massacre isn't mutually exclusive.

Maybe I'm letting anger cloud my judgement here, quite possibly complicated by a bit of not being American and possibly being ignorant of some facts about that country and culture(s) I haven't spotted, but my view is that from what I understand the actions on Utøya is the logical end point if you take the US far right's rethoric and then plop somebody without any restraint down in the Norwegian society.

I mean the outright stating that leftist policies and such are destroying the country/world and must be stopped no matter the cost, then slyly hinting at "Second amendment voting."

Then putting a person with that ideology down in Norway where this far right movement plain isn't VIABLE right now. So.... "The enemy" must be stopped at any cost, and peaceful means aren't availible because by Norwegian standards you are so much of an extremist that getting actual support outside of a few issues isn't happening. So you take it to the logical extreme. You go "Second amendment" on your "enemies" (Read: Fellow countrymen who while they'd not agree with you, MOST of them are civil enough to debate you on it and hear you out even when they state they consider it racist afterwards)

Sorry about this. Had to get it off my chest.

[madd0ct0r]

Intresting article appeared about the far right press's responsobility for the attack.

from here: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talkin ... 27654.html

When the 2010 plot to blow up airplanes over US cities was foiled, talk quickly focused on the men who had tried to execute the attack. Commentators and pundits spent a great deal of time asking how were they 'radicalised'.

In the case of Anders Behring Breivik, our task is made easier by his 1,518-page manifesto, which makes it entirely clear.

One article by Melanie Phillips, a particularly trenchant columnist for the Daily Mail, is cited in full. It argues that Labour constructed its immigration policy "to destroy for ever what it means to be culturally British and to put another 'multicultural' identity in its place". A Sunday Times article by Jeremy Clarkson complaining about the English aversion to the national flag (an argument I sympathise with, for what it's worth) is also cited extensively. Several news stories are included, many of them from the Telegraph and Guardian.

he then goes on to shred the daily mail and daily star's reporting practices.

[Lord Zentei]

At least none of them have blubbered about it being some kind of liberal false-flag bullshit to discredit the right like what some Hypocritical Psycho Conservative Assholes said of the Arizona shootings.

Sorry, this is a bit late, but I mentioned this earlier.

+http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t818918/

We have several gems in here. Behold:

White Brothers from Norway, let us know the truth. It sounds like a Mossad operation to me.
Another, 9/11, Mumbai, 7/7, Spain, Shoe Bomber or Ball bomber. This has the tell tale signs of a Mossad operation.

It was the JOOOOS!!

I don't usually post stuff like this, but because this is true history and not a conspiracy I find it important to remind people about it. The attack in Norway is very similar to attacks carried out through operation Gladio by Nato, and the OK, city bombing whose attacker Timothy Mcveigh was also formerly in the U.S military.

Why would NATO or EU want to pin this on traditional minded nationalist? Why would they carry out attack operations on Norway, a peaceful Nordic country?

Could it be because NATO and EU are afriad of the rising popularity of nationalist, and especially their recent sucess in Nordic countries like Finland which pose a threat to the EU's economic iron-curtain and Nato's military overseas wars which nationalist not only oppose, but want out?

This attacker had no military training, yet he carried out this attack (including making a bomb) like a trained mercenary.

It was a false flag operation! WAAAAH! The powers that be are trying to malign us!

This is the doctored up profile used by the "mainstream" media.

This was spree killer Anders Behring Breivik’s facebook original profile immediately after his name was released. And on the right a new English language facebook profile that appeared minutes later.

Click of the profiles to see the full sized versions.

Several things have been doctored up to alter the suspects political views. First a section titled “Philosophy” has been added to include “Christian,” and “Conservative.” The media has used this to great lengths.

Right, a media conspiracy.

Looks like the Ministry of Truth is working OT on this one

And so on and so on. You get the idea.

[madd0ct0r]

that thread is a fascinating yet horrifying read.

contributors seem to be
1) agreed he was not a white nationalist - the guy's disavowal of hitler and support of israel (because they're anti-muslim) puts him beyond the pale as far as they're concerned

2) aware there is a lot of media attention on stormfront - the mods are being careful and people are being reminded not to say anything 'silly.'

3) divided on the guy's actions. Some seem to think he was justified, others that any killing of whites is unacceptable. others...

It's difficult to predict the future. At first I was horrified by his choice of targets - they were kids in a political indoctrination camp. Maybe their parents hold those views and they were obedient children who loved and respected their parents, so they went to the camp.

If you're going to kill people, why not go after the invaders themselves and the politicians who support them? Or the mass media who promote the agenda and business leaders who profit from lowering wages?

But then again, he definitely gave the future "multiculturalists" something to think about - there may be other men who decide violence is the solution. I doubt they're ready to die for immigrants - I think they just want to be what the media says is "cool" and to think of themselves as sanctified humanitarians.

This guy Anders... there are so many things that don't make sense... Pro-Israel, yet hates "cultural marxism?" The Frankfurt School started cultural marxism and was a jew invention - they fled Germany before Hitler got them.

others are worse. yeesh.

I agree with the report.
I do not identify with the guy.

If he wanted to give us carnage, why not a mosque on a Friday.

What a waste of explosives.

All those white kids shot...

It is muslims who are responsible for all of Norway's rape crimes over the last five years.

The guy was an idiot.
We don't need that kind of baggage.

[Irbis]

It says someone in Poland was arrested for selling him some chemicals used in bomb, because of Norwegian request. However, one of the comments says it turned out to be untrue, I don't know which side is right, I'll check in the morning.

So, what I remember from TV - Norwegian police found out someone from Poland talked with him on the forum for right wingers, and sold him something (he had his company's address on said forum). Polish Police went to apprehend him, which was changed to witness status after he declared full cooperation and surrendered all his company's paperwork. He apparently sold him 0.5 kg of "substance A" and 100 kg of "substance B" - IIRC, speculation was about sodium nitrate and fertilizer.

The report also included mildly amusing story how Breivik went to Prague, in his opinion dark ex-soviet city being center of illegal weapons trade, only to find modern, bright tourist city, where everyone (taxi drivers, prostitutes) looked like he was a madman when he asked for contact how to buy AK-47. He left saying the only dangerous thing you can find there is lager. A pity he wasn't stopped then, if it's true.

Also, yet another proof falsifying this old, tired NRA shit about 'wrongdoers buying illegal' - I wonder when we wake up and do to guns the same thing Europe is not doing to cigarettes

Maybe I'm letting anger cloud my judgement here, quite possibly complicated by a bit of not being American and possibly being ignorant of some facts about that country and culture(s) I haven't spotted, but my view is that from what I understand the actions on Utøya is the logical end point if you take the US far right's rethoric and then plop somebody without any restraint down in the Norwegian society.

I mean the outright stating that leftist policies and such are destroying the country/world and must be stopped no matter the cost, then slyly hinting at "Second amendment voting."

No, you're right. But what we can do about it? I saw firsthand how poisonous and disgusting conservative US-backed right wing media can be in UK, and I don't doubt it's far worse in the US itself. The only hope is further social change and modernization.

It was a false flag operation! WAAAAH! The powers that be are trying to malign us!

To be fair, he has a point - it was like Operation Gladio, that is, arming of right wing nuts in hopes it will somehow stop the Communists - said nuts went and shot a few left wing activists, which caused public outrage, and re-branding of the operation, still, it shows what happens when you arm a monkey.

Also, I always though Operation Gladio was child of fucking disgusting conservative-minded shitholes, and after this, this feeling doubled