Norwegian Utøya shooter's manifesto

[Serafina]

Assault rape is much rarer than other forms of rape (taking advantage of an unconscious woman, raping her while in her bed when she just wanted to kiss and such).

Rape also always includes huge reporting issues, i would hardly be surprised if rape by a foreigner was simply reported more often than rape by a Norwegian.

[southdakotaboy1]

I think some of you collapsing from the vapors in righteous indignation are missing the forest for the trees. If immigrants or Muslims represent 14% of the population of Oslo but are committing two-thirds of the reported rapes, that's kind of a bad thing.

Besides which, it misses the core issue: that Muslims and non-western foreigners are apparently overrepresented in the population of rapists in Norway.

I've been trying to call his facts into question. Remember, he started with "all rapes in Norway were committed by Muslims," and only then fell back to "well, most rapes in Norway are committed by Muslims.

This calls his credibility into question- where is he getting his facts from? Are the sources that report this reliable?

I am simply too busy to do deep research on this to winnow out the truth from the lies right now.

I do not consider that to be an ad hominem: when someone has tried to pass off a blatant lie as if it were true before, one must carefully consider the merits of any "facts" which they present after being caught in the lie.

But I did acknowledge that the youtube figures given were not the best.

Then why did you give them at all? You came out and said, point blank: "Last year in Oslo every single reported (and solved rape) was committed by a muslim (the following is a news report from Norway with subtitles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSHKw5WakGw)."

That was your second post.

Only after being called on this utter bullshit did you go looking for a source that claimed something less obviously and easily refuted. If no one had called you on it, so far as I can tell, you would have kept proceeding on

Which casts your credibility into doubt. Are you really asserting that "only most" rapes in Oslo are committed by Muslims, and for some bizarre reason you chose to say "all" the first time you mentioned the issue? Or are you just trying to present whatever assertion would support you the best if it were true, regardless of whether or not it actually is true? If the statistics you gave us this time around prove to be bullshit, will you go hunting for yet another set that support your argument but with slightly lower numbers?

Now, if this were some subtle flaw you could easily have overlooked, I wouldn't mind. But you started out with "all rapes in Oslo were committed by Muslims." It's hard for me to see how you could have held that position seriously without either gross indifference to the truth, or a bias so powerful that it prevented you from even considering whether such an extreme claim might, after all, not be true.

However to address my second point about silencing criticism, how does throwing around charges of racism and liar and other personal insults help advance any discussion. What it does do is harden people into more extreme positions which in turn leads to more tension and violence in the end.

I'm not accusing you of racism. I'm only accusing you of lying because you said things that are so obviously not true that any intelligent person should have been able to spot them.

You presented a very extreme, highly unlikely claim* as if it were absolute fact, when even a brief investigation reveals that it's nonsense. If you weren't lying, then what were you doing?

*Seriously, ALL rapes in an entire city committed by Muslims? NOT ONE Norwegian man committing rape?

Well as I have admitted I am guilty of being a bit lazy with my research, but I corrected that when it was pointed out. However that doesn't change the overall point that if we don't openly and civilly discuss these topics there will be more of these types of events.

While passion can be a great thing sometimes it can also lead to tunnel vision and lack of critical thinking.

As far as all the rapes being committed by muslims...given the population and the numbers involved not impossible. Looking at this it seems that a large number of these rapists have several things in common. First they come from Islamic countries that do not share the western views on sex and women's roles and place in society add to that the fact that both Iraq and Somalia are both ravaged by war and strife. At the very least it would seem that Norway might want to put in place some sort of plan to deal with future male immigrants from these types of places. The plan could range from out right denial of entry to long term counseling on how to function in Norwegian society or some combination of the two (failure of counseling class leads to automatic expulsion or something along those lines).

[Darth Yan]

I'm sorry but that's the kind of horseshit bill maher trots out on his show. In the western world we still have issues with gender equality that have nothing to do with the east; America has some of the highest rape counts in the world, and just about any riot or breakdown of civil order anywhere is going to involve rape. Rape is hardly a muslim dominated phenomen; Provide real statistical evidence that Muslims are the majority of the rapists right now

[southdakotaboy1]

I'm sorry but that's the kind of horseshit bill maher trots out on his show. In the western world we still have issues with gender equality that have nothing to do with the east; America has some of the highest rape counts in the world, and just about any riot or breakdown of civil order anywhere is going to involve rape. Rape is hardly a muslim dominated phenomen; Provide real statistical evidence that Muslims are the majority of the rapists right now

We are talking about Norway and Norway only as far as rape goes. As a side issue we are talking about civility in discourse over touchy subjects.

I guess since we are on a thread about the shooter's manifesto you could expand the issue of rape to include all of Europe since his whole point was to save Europe from muslims.

What are the numbers on rape in Europe as a whole, does anyone know?

[Force Lord]

Oh dear. Are you the same southdakotaboy from Spacebattles?

[southdakotaboy1]

Oh dear. Are you the same southdakotaboy from Spacebattles?

Yes, why do you ask?

[Force Lord]

Oh dear. Are you the same southdakotaboy from Spacebattles?

Yes, why do you ask?

You will learn soon that SDN has stricter standards than SB.

EDIT: And what the heck possesed you to register here? Your SB history isn't exactly stellar (understatement!), and SDN is a more liberal site.

[Simon_Jester]

Well as I have admitted I am guilty of being a bit lazy with my research, but I corrected that when it was pointed out. However that doesn't change the overall point that if we don't openly and civilly discuss these topics there will be more of these types of events.

While passion can be a great thing sometimes it can also lead to tunnel vision and lack of critical thinking.

As far as all the rapes being committed by muslims...given the population and the numbers involved not impossible. Looking at this it seems that a large number of these rapists have several things in common. First they come from Islamic countries that do not share the western views on sex and women's roles and place in society add to that the fact that both Iraq and Somalia are both ravaged by war and strife. At the very least it would seem that Norway might want to put in place some sort of plan to deal with future male immigrants from these types of places. The plan could range from out right denial of entry to long term counseling on how to function in Norwegian society or some combination of the two (failure of counseling class leads to automatic expulsion or something along those lines).

The problem is that while you perceive the numbers you gave to be "not impossible," I have no evidence one way or the other.

It would seem that you also thought it possible that every single rape in Oslo was committed by a Muslim. I didn't trust your intuition then; why should I now?

[southdakotaboy1]

Oh dear. Are you the same southdakotaboy from Spacebattles?

Yes, why do you ask?

You will learn soon that SDN has stricter standards than SB.

EDIT: And what the heck possesed you to register here? Your SB history isn't exactly stellar (understatement!), and SDN is a more liberal site.

Well after I had heard some much about this site ( much of it was fairly unflattering to tell the truth) I thought I would check it out. To be honest I was expecting things to be truly horrible and so far I have been pleasantly surprised. Granted I was swore at a fair amount, but when I pointed out that it was counter productive he apologized (which was very nice ).

[Thanas]

SouthDakotaboy, I expect you to provide evidence for your claims, especially with regard to culture being attacked and the rape things, or concede that you are spouting racist nonsense.

[southdakotaboy1]

SouthDakotaboy, I expect you to provide evidence for your claims, especially with regard to culture being attacked and the rape things, or concede that you are spouting racist nonsense.

Ok here is the source for the rape thing in Norway: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local ... 190268.ece

As far as I know I haven't made any statements about culture being attacked.

I was basically talking about how sometimes in defending the idea of multiculturalism people on the left try to silence any legitimate criticism of immigration and muslims. Due to some laziness on my part I linked to a youtube video that stated that all rapes in Oslo had been committed by muslims, after some further investigation by both myself and another poster it seems that a more accurate statement is the muslim immigrants seem to be over represented as far as committing rapes in Norway (see source provided cross referenced with wiki article on Norwegian immigration). A conclusion was reached that this is a bad thing. At that point I offered that maybe some targeted immigration reforms were needed and I provided some suggestions. Another poster then wanted to expand the idea of rape to include worldwide statistics, but since this should at least stay somewhat on the idea of the manifesto I suggested looking at only European trends to see if the pattern that seemed to be prevalent in Norway was widespread throughout the rest of Europe.

[Shroom Man 777]

Fuck me, is this guy actually agreeing with the shooter?

[K. A. Pital]

So out of almost 300000 non-Westerners in Olso, there's 77 rape cases - or a factor less than 1 promille. Which is fairly low if you ask me. Higher than average? So what? Yes, I believe cultural background constitutes a factor - however, so does poverty and joblessness, which is a common problem for "non-Western" immigrants, and that contributes to their slide towards crime as well.

I haven't seen evidence of some sort of mega-threat that would require taking any radical action against immigrants (other than perhaps better integration courses and stricter requirements on immigration relative to language/skill).

[Big Phil]

So out of almost 300000 non-Westerners in Olso, there's 77 rape cases - or a factor less than 1 promille. Which is fairly low if you ask me. Higher than average? So what? Yes, I believe cultural background constitutes a factor - however, so does poverty and joblessness, which is a common problem for "non-Western" immigrants, and that contributes to their slide towards crime as well.

I haven't seen evidence of some sort of mega-threat that would require taking any radical action against immigrants (other than perhaps better integration courses and stricter requirements on immigration relative to language/skill).

I get that southdakotaboy's introduction to SDNet has been less than impressive, but this dismissal of over-representation of rape among "non-western immigrants" in Norway as "so what" is pretty lame. The issue isn't the absolute number of assault rapes, which is fortunately quite low, but the fact that apparently "non-western immigrants" are committing most of them (again, assuming that the numbers are correct).

Let me put it this way: if a white Australian dismissed poverty and sexual crimes in aboriginal communities as being insignificant because there are "only half a million of them and only 100 sex crimes," they'd be ripped to shreds on this board, and rightly so, because that attitude is ugly, potentially racist, and selfish. So why is it okay for you to treat southdakotaboy's argument in the same fashion?

[Simon_Jester]

What really needs doing is to strip out the effects of poverty and unemployment on crime rates, and on rape rates.

To make up totally arbitrary numbers by way of giving a simple example:

If it turns out that Muslims are 20% of the population in Oslo, and commit 60% of the rapes, that's shocking.

If it then turns out that virtually all rapes are committed by men below the poverty line, and 60% of people below the poverty line in Oslo are Muslim... suddenly, it becomes a hell of a lot less shocking.

[madd0ct0r]

I believe this website will be of use to the continuing discussion.

http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/03/0 ... tatres_en/

it's the official stats site for the Norway goverment. the page i link should let you pull up the stats as you want them.

I'd love to join the dogpile, but I did have fun the last time the Oslo 'stats' came up so it's probably someone else's turn.

[Rogue 11]

Note: I know I'm copying this from the other thread (And infact another forum as well), I know that isn't the best poster conduct, but frankly I don't care right now. I'm angry, I want my rant seen, and both threads are relevant for this, if marginally (It does relate to our shooter's ideology)

I just saw Glenn Beck's response to the shooter incident and I have a rant I HAVE to get off my Chest, something that has been building for several days as I see trends in far right media (Especially US)

The link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ler-youth.html

I'm outraged, but not surprised, paying attention to the news tilt in the far right media you notice that they were trending that way.

Which is why this Norwegian is now considering Fox News and their ilk to be supporting terrorism as long as it's done by the right terrorists. As far as I'm concerned being a terrorist action or a massacre isn't mutually exclusive.

Maybe I'm letting anger cloud my judgement here, quite possibly complicated by a bit of not being American and possibly being ignorant of some facts about that country and culture(s) I haven't spotted, but my view is that from what I understand the actions on Utøya is the logical end point if you take the US far right's rethoric and then plop somebody without any restraint down in the Norwegian society.

I mean the outright stating that leftist policies and such are destroying the country/world and must be stopped no matter the cost, then slyly hinting at "Second amendment voting."

Then putting a person with that ideology down in Norway where this far right movement plain isn't VIABLE right now. So.... "The enemy" must be stopped at any cost, and peaceful means aren't availible because by Norwegian standards you are so much of an extremist that getting actual support outside of a few issues isn't happening. So you take it to the logical extreme. You go "Second amendment" on your "enemies" (Read: Fellow countrymen who while they'd not agree with you, MOST of them are civil enough to debate you on it and hear you out even when they state they consider it racist afterwards)

Sorry about this. Had to get it off my chest.

[Rogue 11]

The link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ler-youth.html

Didn't check my link before posting and format got wrong somewhere. Didn't notice in time to edit.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... youth.html

[southdakotaboy1]

The link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ler-youth.html

Didn't check my link before posting and format got wrong somewhere. Didn't notice in time to edit.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... youth.html

Well Glenn Beck is well known for saying whatever pops into his head, and in his defense if you stopped the average American (non political) on the street and asked them what came to mind when you told them that a European political party was having organized summer camps focusing on political activities, there would be two common answers: Hitler Youth and/or Young Communists.

Also Glenn Beck wasn't forced out so much as he went on to try and form his own little media empire because he felt constrained by FOX.

[speaker-to-trolls]

^The fact that most Americans have a kneejerk reaction to anything about European politics isn't an excuse for Beck, it just means either he's politically ignorant, which is a major failing in a political commentator, or he's playing on other people's ignorance for effect, which is even worse. Or both.

Neither of these are helped by the fact that Beck runs his own damn political youth camps, ans is all about indoctrinating young people into his own ideology. Frankly I don't think anything can be said in his defence here.

[Metahive]

Well Glenn Beck is well known for saying whatever pops into his head, and in his defense if you stopped the average American (non political) on the street and asked them what came to mind when you told them that a European political party was having organized summer camps focusing on political activities, there would be two common answers: Hitler Youth and/or Young Communists.

I find that pretty insulting towards the "average American (non political)". I think most would have better sense than likening the victims of a massacre to the Hitler Youth like that (except for the usual suspects of course), no matter what they think first when someone mentions party-sponsored youth camps in Europe.

[Julhelm]

I find that pretty insulting towards the "average American (non political)". I think most would have better sense than likening the victims of a massacre to the Hitler Youth like that (except for the usual suspects of course), no matter what they think first when someone mentions party-sponsored youth camps in Europe.

There is a Social Democrat youth/party camp not far from where I live. Everybody I know refers to it as "Backagårdens Hitlerjugend-center" so what southdakotaboy1 describes doesn't sound that strange at all. After all Communism, National Socialism and Social Democracy and the various permutations of socialism share some common stylistic traits which are plain to see for anyone who doesn't suffer from ideological blinders:

This is a 1938 Linz Hitlerjugend parade:
linka

This is a 1965 Unga Örnar (Swedish Social Democrat party youth organization*) may parade:
linka

This is a contemporary SSU (Swedish Social Democrats party youth organization*)
linka

So I do not find it implausible that to an american these would all look rather similar with their uniforms and party banners.

*SSU is more of a grooming organization for future S top politicians whereas Unga Örnar is a defacto child organization. To my knowledge, while all of the parties in Sweden has some kind of young politicians organization, the Social Democrats are the only ones with one geared specifically towards children.

Just to finish, here's a nice photo of a 1930's Unga Örnar marching band. Nice uniforms, don't you think?

[Metahive]

Except of course that's not what I was talking about but people having the sense of decency to not compare people who have just been murdered by a madman to the friggin' Hitler Youth.

I mean is there a point to that other than denigrating and insulting the victims to score cheap political points? "Howdy boy, your father was just murdered? With that hole in the head he looks just like the dead Osama Bin Laden lol". Let's also not forget that the murderer had more in common with the Hitler Youth than the people he murdered so that's twice the fail.

So I do not find it implausible that to an american these would all look rather similar with their uniforms and party banners.

The first thing uniformed youths remind me of are the Boy Scouts and yes, they exist in the US too.

[Eleas]

<snip>

Julhelm, let me just clarify a few things here. Your argument is that Beck didn't just follow his usual MO of saying the most blatantly inflammatory shit he could think of, but that he was in fact informed by pictures such as these, those being (with one exception) formal pictures from before the age of color photography?

Hell, even today, marching bands are traditionally in uniform. Doesn't mean a thing. Whereas contemporary SSU... well, I don't follow them, but they do look fairly bloody cheery and not particularly threatening in that picture, and for christs's sake those are bloody t-shirts they're wearing.

I'll do you one better. Those traits are all shared by parades. The victims in question had nothing to do with such; they were simply attending a summer camp.

[Julhelm]

<snip>

Your argument is that Beck didn't just follow his usual MO of saying the most blatantly inflammatory shit he could think of, but that he was in fact informed by pictures such as these, those being (with one exception) formal pictures from before the age of color photography?

Oh, I'm certain he did, but my post was in direct reference to this quote by southdakotaboy1:

if you stopped the average American (non political) on the street and asked them what came to mind when you told them that a European political party was having organized summer camps focusing on political activities, there would be two common answers: Hitler Youth and/or Young Communists.

I don't give any particular weight to whatever stupid shit Glenn Beck says, but I find it completely plausible that an american could draw that conclusion from photos like the ones I posted and the term "party youth camp". From what I'm aware, the Boy Scouts, though serving as the inspiration for these organizations, aren't a politically affiliated party youth organization where the primary purpose is political indoctrination of children/youth the way Unga Örnar, the SSU and the (pre-war)Hitlerjugend was. If some of the Americans here can show me examples of an official Republican or Democrat party youth camp similar to the ones held by the Social Democrats I'll gladly concede and admit I was wrong.

The victims in question had nothing to do with such; they were simply attending a summer camp.

Not just a summer camp. An official party summer camp. That's a world of difference. Breivik obviously targeted these kids because of their party affiliation. He didn't just shoot up a random kids summer camp. I'm sorry but the victims aren't just random kids here. They were targeted because of their party affiliation and what they represent.