Deus Ex: Human Revolution

[Chardok]

Not being an ass but is that sarcasm?

(It absolutely was.)

[Stark]

Not being an ass but is that sarcasm? (if not I will post properly in a bit after this CoH game)

You are in a thread full of people saying 'there isn't much gameplay released' and 'what I've seen looks bad'.

Do you think maybe these people would value information about gameplay?

[Chardok]

Not being an ass but is that sarcasm? (if not I will post properly in a bit after this CoH game)

You are in a thread full of people saying 'there isn't much gameplay released' and 'what I've seen looks bad'.

Do you think maybe these people would value information about gameplay?

I don't think anyone should give a flying shitballs about some bullshit press release preview build.

[Stark]

So long as its nature is kept in mind, it's still a better source on game quality than dramatic story cinematics.

We all remember the STALKER alpha leaked in 2002 that was nothing like the final game.

[Bluewolf]

Well I don't know if this is comparable to anything but it has the right click to cover, tap/hold to move around or jump to other cover and using the W or A/D key to move around to shoot. I admit I don't play a lot of shooters but it feels quite good when you get the hang of it. Middle Mouse Button to zoom into your sights/scope etc.

Take note I went non lethal as a route so I will tell you what it's like from that perspective. AI wise, I was on medium difficulty. I didn't take any physical augs. The lethal is quite high, at least from what I've seen. You can't barge into an open combat situation and win. You can be killed with one burst if you are not careful. You have regenerating health but it slowly regen so it's not a "suck your thumb for two seconds to get to 100% health" sort of thing. You have to use cover. You do have health items that let you gain some health quicker though.

Shooting wise, I felt it was alright. The removal of body part dependent health is a shame but it felt fun. Guns so far range from standard 10mm to kinda like energy stun guns. The game gives you a lot of option to be non lethal. The weapon options so far are not so amazing but it's not like HL2 where you have little. There are some nice things imo though. Shotguns have actual range and things like Tranq guns actually behave in a decent way. When an enemy is hit with one they will walk for a few seconds, stumble and collapse and there is a risk a tranqed enemy will be revived if another enemy is nearby. It forces you to actually time when to shoot enemies with it. It also makes you lead your shot.

The AI is alright. Nothing fantastic. I hear it's a lot better on the top difficulty obviously. It actually hears shit now and has a better field of view. The AI works as a team and will surround you. Sometimes it can be a bit dumb though as it wont hear shit that is going on in another room. It may be due to my difficulty level though.

Melee is gone. Now you have takedown move which recharges. You tap to knock out, hold to kill. It's a shame to lose melee but the gun choice kinda makes up for this to an extent. Weapon mods are interesting, you are now visually seeing most mods.

Sorry if that made no sense but I did this on the fly, hope it gives you an idea.

PS: Chardok, yeah, the beta wont be the same as the real thing but he was curious to ask.

[Bluewolf]

-Sorry, triple posted-

[Bluewolf]

--

[Stark]

I'm interested in what you say about the weapons being distinct in use; what's the weapon handling like? I guess you can't really answer that, since you don't play shooters, but some games (like Call of Juarez, the Cartel) have a really bad 'sense' or 'feel' during gun battles, making it seem like you're not really doing anything, your shooting doesn't affect anything, etc.

When you say 'non lethal', do you just mean 'use trank guns' or did you see the whole 'use dialog in missions' stuff? How does the AI react to the typical 'pick guards off one at a time' thing? How does hackign work with alarms etc?

[Bluewolf]

I'm interested in what you say about the weapons being distinct in use; what's the weapon handling like? I guess you can't really answer that, since you don't play shooters, but some games (like Call of Juarez, the Cartel) have a really bad 'sense' or 'feel' during gun battles, making it seem like you're not really doing anything, your shooting doesn't affect anything, etc.

Like, do you mean, like your shots has no impact etc?

When you say 'non lethal', do you just mean 'use trank guns' or did you see the whole 'use dialog in missions' stuff? How does the AI react to the typical 'pick guards off one at a time' thing? How does hackign work with alarms etc?

Both. For example, you have a load of non lethal weaponary, but you also go through vents to avoid conflict. On top of that, in situations, depending on what you said, can avoid conflict entirely.

Guard wise, sadly it isn't so great, you can do it fairly easily, at least on medium. Hacking is a mini game basically. I think you've seen it. People see you doing it and will stop you mid hack thiough.

[Stark]

Well it's a really subjective thing, but in CoJ:C, the guns make crap noises, with bad or nonexistent firing effects/recoil/'weapon handling', and the impact of bullets makes shit noises/bad effects/no real impact animations... it's a collection of elements (that I group under 'weapon handling') that provide the action senstation in gun battles.

Basically, some games can have all the guns and explosions they want, but it never feels like yuo're actually in a battle - like old games where guys just had a 'firing' spirte with a muzzle flash painted on, and you shot them for a while and they fell down.

Anyway I'm curious if DEHR 'sells' the combat through effective use of sound, animation, camera/head movement etc.

About the 'vents' thing, is it flexible or is it just Splinter Cell style 'there is a vent from here to here' and 'there is a pipe from ehre to here' stuff? I'm curious abotu the hacking utility, since games like AP/SS2 had hacking turn off alarms, get sentries, acquire information, etc.

[Artemas]

One of the reasons i liked the first one, and why i liked Hitman, was that while you had tremendous freedom in achieving a goal, you were sort of left to your own devices to puzzle it out, and you could fluidly switch styles or approaches and muddle through. From what i've seen of DEHR (i'm sure we can do better stark), it seems to be pushing more of a strict delineation of approaches into a talky/murder/crawlthroughvents tripartite, which i think is a shame. at least the combat will be better.

EDIT: yeah, how the gun play feels is pretty important, yet hard to truly define. In BC2 though it was great, in no small part due to the tremendous sound work. things like recoil, weapon damage, those little puffs of dust when you shoot a wall, etc. the coolest part of FEAR1

[Bluewolf]

Well it's a really subjective thing, but in CoJ:C, the guns make crap noises, with bad or nonexistent firing effects/recoil/'weapon handling', and the impact of bullets makes shit noises/bad effects/no real impact animations... it's a collection of elements (that I group under 'weapon handling') that provide the action senstation in gun battles.

I would say it's not fantastic but not horrible. The guns have proper reload animations and some have good noises (esp shotguns). Weapons handle a bit differently. Shotguns obv have big recoil and Tranq guns have to lead moving targets etc. It's not fantastic but it works imo. There were situations where it got quite tense and the music is dynamic which helps with that. I wouldn't say it sucks balls though.

About the 'vents' thing, is it flexible or is it just Splinter Cell style 'there is a vent from here to here' and 'there is a pipe from ehre to here' stuff? I'm curious abotu the hacking utility, since games like AP/SS2 had hacking turn off alarms, get sentries, acquire information, etc.

Both, Sometimes there are obvious vents that lead to A to B. Some however lead to 3-4-5 places.

I would hold judgement though as A. This was a beta. B. This wasn't a full game.

[Chirios]

The gameplay looks pretty good as well. You've got multiple entry and exit points, different ways to complete the mission. That said I've never played the original Deus Ex so maybe it's not as good as it could be.

Please, do not rate the actual gameplay based on developer claims that the game has "multiple entry and exit points and different ways to complete the mission". That is not a prerequisite for solid gameplay. It actually has little to do with actual gameplay.

No, I was basing it on videos I've seen of the beta on youtube. When I said multiple entry and exit points, I meant that I hoped it was somewhat like Hitman, where you can just run through the level shooting, or you can sneak into the back room with some garrot wire, or you can shoot through the jacuzzi (which for some dumb reason the target has hanging off the side of the building) and watch him fall down.

[CaptHawkeye]

You know once you play Bad Company it's really difficult to play another game with weapon design that isn't nearly as good. Halo Reach's guns all felt like toys compared to the stuff in BC 2. Even Call of Duty's guns feel slightly better thanks to penetration but are ruined by shit balancing and in many cases bizarre sound effects. (I have never felt that any of CoD's guns sound like real guns. From the first game right up to Black Ops.)

I mean when you fire a gun in BC2 and watch it blow chunks of concrete wall away and the sight wobbles violently the weapon actually FEELS powerful. Then you see things like lead and range actually matter so now the bullets feel real just by virtue of not being killscan. Then you fire your gun outside or move into a room and hear the game's blatent doppler effect plus the very convincing sound effect.

Someone mentioned to me DICE based weapon sound effects off of the weapon's cartridge supposedly, not its size or its look which it was implied most developers do.

[Tolya]

Please, do not rate the actual gameplay based on developer claims that the game has "multiple entry and exit points and different ways to complete the mission". That is not a prerequisite for solid gameplay. It actually has little to do with actual gameplay.

Is this a savaging? Is it Stark mentally battling someone?

In short, do you have a fucking point beyond 'I this this game will be good but am too cowardly to actually come out and say it, for fear of having to defend my views'? Frankly, the very ambition of the game and gametype makes it more necessary than usual to be sceptical of marketing. Its another source of scepticism that there is little direct continuity development wise, and that there's nothing that really allows verification of the developer ambition.

Clearly, a savaging.

Have you misquoted or are you rolling on another reality plane? Because it may be me being tired after work, but I can't bloody understand the logic relation.

[Tolya]

No, I was basing it on videos I've seen of the beta on youtube. When I said multiple entry and exit points, I meant that I hoped it was somewhat like Hitman, where you can just run through the level shooting, or you can sneak into the back room with some garrot wire, or you can shoot through the jacuzzi (which for some dumb reason the target has hanging off the side of the building) and watch him fall down.

What you are praising is actual level design. It can only be judged after playing the game. Introducing non-linearity does not make the game better. In fact, it just gives you another problem to solve. It's just like sex in relationship: introducing it won't cure all your relationship's problem, it just gives you another reason for a headache.

Again, think of Derek Smart's shit.

Remember what Square Enix did with Just Cause 2? You had a huge beautiful map, lots of targets, but your approach in clearing the game varied between "should I hijack this chopper or call in an armored car?".

Again, I've seen gameplay footage. Fancy and colourful, but nothing really close to what DX1 was when it came out (even with all it's faults).

[Bluewolf]

Level design is mixed. The first level is an inverse Liberty Island (IE: Small, enclosed), the second real "level" is a load of offices but that is a bit better given their size. The third is a massive warehouse block which is alright. I am hoping they pick up on levels and we get a worthy version of HK. One complement I have to give to the second level is, is that there are several ways to get in it and it really gives you options on how to approach the place.

The city itself is actually something I really like. It acts like Hells Kitchen did in DX1: A large hub for side quests and missions. The place is large, full of secrets and is not empty which was a problem I was fearing. There is a fuckton of stuff to do. Great for exploring as well.

[Stark]

Have you misquoted or are you rolling on another reality plane? Because it may be me being tired after work, but I can't bloody understand the logic relation.

Sorry dude, I used you as an example. I wasn't replying to you. 'Don't base your shit on claims and canned gameplay' is clearly flaming and nobody can talk about opinions, right? :V

And people really don't seem to have a clear idea on what 'succeeds' in games, or even where their favourite features come from. Having a house with a back door doesn't make a game better; regardless of dev intention, there will always be a 'best' way unless there is a dynamic element. The Hitman example is a good one, because the Hitman games aren't even shooters; they're PUZZLE GAMES. Once you know what to do the game is laughably easy, and all the 'flexibility' is 80% 'do the wrong thing' and 20% 'lol shoot guys'.

Bluewolf, are the levels connected directly or are they mission spaces instanced out when you 'do' a 'quest' (ugh)? I'm curious if the game is more like Far Cry 2 ('do this activity on this giant map') or Borderlands ('teleport to this location and complete this objective, then teleport back').

[Bluewolf]

Again, both. The first mission teleports you to X area, then you go back to the HQ/base. After that though, the next two missions are in the same area. After that you teleport to another area and by the looks of it, to another (to China). I am hoping China will be like HK in DX1. A large area with tons of stuff to do and a lot of objectives to do. Hong Kong is the point imo where DX1 really got going. It's atmosphere (for an 11 year old game) is great. I am hoping China in DX3 will be the same if not better. I don't expect it to be but it'd be a nice surprise.

[PeZook]

Yeah, Hong Kong was like you were suddenly shoved into a completely different and also much better game: from art direction to mission placement and design, it was just...better than NYC.

[Bluewolf]

Honestly PeZook, I think it's where they found their feet. They worked out what worked and went with it and the result is one of the best areas in PC gaming imo. At the time I played it, it felt alive. I was not like some sort of "city" that had 3 people in it. I am hoping DX3 also picks up there.

[Stark]

You have obviously never worked on any kind of multi-contributor project. PROTIP: they probably didn't design the levels in order. One of their level designers likely just sucked shit.

Regardless, is there any reason to believe the final game will have any AI in it? In the beta, guys just seem to stand still or follow paths, randomly emitting voice files, until you kill them. The Hitman comparison is apt, which is a real shame - the only dynamic element in the entire game appears to be the player, so it appears to be a series of fixed rooms you have to pass through.

And giant 'lol' at the xp system pushing everyone into non-lethal. Balance!

[CaptHawkeye]

Really? That's hilarious. I love it when developers say you have choice, but slap you on the wrist if you don't take the RIGHT choice.

[Vendetta]

And giant 'lol' at the xp system pushing everyone into non-lethal. Balance!

In the first game it was more like "the combat is rubbish, fighting people is a drag, I shall be teh sneaky to avoid having to bother".

[PeZook]

Or you just ran around with the supersword killing everyone with trivial ease...