Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

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Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Stravo »

http://247wallst.com/2011/07/29/ten-sig ... has-begun/

Top Ten Signs the Double Dip Recession has Begun
Today’s news on GDP shows the double dip has arrived–an expansion of only 1.3% and consumer spending up .1% in the second quarter. Astonishingly low by any account.. The debt ceiling trouble and lack of a longer term resolution to the deficit will make it worse.

The US has entered a second recession. It may not be as bad as the first. Economists say that the Great Recession began in December 2007 and lasted until July 2009. That may be the way that the economy was seen through the eyes of experts, but many Americans do not believe that the 2008-2009 downturn ever ended. A Gallup poll released in April found that 29% of those queried thought the economy was in a “depression” and 26% said that the original recession had persisted into 2011.

It is any wonder that many Americans believe that the economic downturn is still in progress? Home prices have fallen to 2002 levels. Values have dropped nearly 50% in parts of Florida, California, Nevada, and Arizona. Property values are also down that much in parts of troubled big cities like Detroit. Estimates are that as many as 11 million homes have underwater mortgages. Banks have inventories of as many as 2 million foreclosed homes which have not even been released to the market. Home prices could fall another 10% if current trends persist.

Perhaps the most powerful argument that the recession never ended or that a new one has begun is the persistence of unemployment. Fourteen million people are out of work. A third of those have been jobless for more than a year. May employment data showed the jobless rate rose unexpectedly and that the economy added only 58,000 jobs. Experts believe that the unemployment rate will not improve significantly until the monthly gain in jobs is consistently 300,000 jobs or more. And, at that rate the gains would have to go one for more than two years to bring the economy back to what is traditionally considered a reasonable unemployment figure.

There are several signs that a recession is firmly in place again and that the downturn could last for several quarters. Most are already easy for the average American to see.

1. Inflation

There is almost nothing that damages consumer confidence as badly as a rapid rise in prices. Starbucks recently increased the price of a bag of coffee by 17% because wholesale prices have risen by almost twice that rate in the last year. Cotton prices nearly doubled in 2010 but has fallen this year. But, apparel is made months in advance of when they reach store shelves. Summer clothing prices are up as much as 20%. That may change in the fall, but for the time being, the consumer’s ability to buy even the most basic clothing has been undermined. Consumers today pay more for sugar, meat, and corn-based products as well.

2. Investments have begun to yield less

Part of the recovery was driven by the stock market surge which began when the DJIA bottomed below 7,000 in March 2009. The index has risen above 12,000 and the prices of many stocks have doubled from their lows. As result, American household nest eggs that were decimated by the collapse of the market have rebounded and enabled people to splurge on themselves. However, the market has stumbled in the last quarter. The DJIA is up only 1% during the last three months and the S&P 500 is down slightly. Americans, though, have have few other places to put their money.. Ten-year Treasuries yield about 3%. Gold was a good investment over the last year, but it has begun to falter as well. The market may not be a friend to investors for quite some time.

3. The auto industry

The auto industry has staged an impressive comeback, although its profitability is based as much on the layoffs it has made over the last five years as generating new sales. GM and Chrysler have emerged from bankruptcy. Year-over-year monthly sales improved late last year and through April. May sales stalled. GM’s revenue dropped by 1% compared to May of 2010. Ford’s sales were down about as much. There are many reasons for this trend including high gas prices and the constrained manufacturing capacity of the Japanese automakers because of the earthquake. Consumers also may be deferring big purchases because they are worried about their economic prospects. Slow car sales are not just a sign of lagging consumer confidence. They also may be a harbinger of tougher times ahead. These companies shed several hundreds thousand jobs before and during the last recession. Car firms have only just begun to hire again, but that trend will die with a plateau in sales.

4. Oil prices

Oil prices are supposed to drop as the economy slows as they did in 2008 and early 2009 when crude fell from over $140 to under $50. That drop at least allowed consumers and businesses like airlines to more easily afford fuel. Recently, crude has moved back above $100 and appears to be stuck there regardless of the economic situation. American budgets have been hurt by the rising cost of gas. Americans of more modest means have been particularly affected. A slowdown in driving usually also leads to a decline in the retail sector as consumers reduce unnecessary travel to stores. The impact on other businesses is just as great. Airlines suffer and so do firms which rely on petrochemicals. OPEC, for now, has signaled it will not increase production.

5. The federal budget

The federal budget deficit has decimated any chance for another economic stimulus package which many prominent economists like Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman say is essential to create a full recovery. His theory has become more of an issue as GDP growth slows to a rate of 2%. The first $787 billion Obama stimulus package may have saved some American jobs, but it is long over and did not work if a drop in unemployment and a sharp improvement in GDP were its primary goals. The deficit has caused a call for severe austerity measures which have already become part of the economics policies of countries from Greece to the UK to Japan. Job cuts in the U.S. will not be restricted to the federal level. A recent UBS Investment Research analysis predicted that state and local governments will cut 450,000 jobs this year and next. That process is already well underway. States like California and New York currently run massive deficits and the rates they must pay on bonds has risen accordingly. Newspaper headlines almost daily report on battles between state unions and governors over employment and benefits.

6. China Economy Slows

A slowdown in the Chinese economy is usually seen as a cause of global commodity price inflation, but the effects cut two ways. China’s appetite for energy and raw materials may fall. But, the demand for goods and services by its very large and growing middle class drops as well. Chinese purchaser manufacturing and export numbers have fallen as the central government has tightened the ability to borrow money. US exports to China are key to the health of many American businesses. John Frisbie, the president of The US-China Business Council, recently said, “Over the last decade we have seen exports to China rise from $16.2 billion to $91.9 billion – a 468 percent increase.” As that rate slows, it has a profound effect on tens of thousands of American companies and their employees. US firms with large operations in China are also effected. GM is one of the two largest car firms in China along with VW. Large US corporations like Wal-mart and Yum! Brands rely significantly on China to boost global sales. Without vibrant consumer spending in China, American companies will suffer.

7. Unemployment

Unemployment creates two immediate problems. People without jobs drastically curtail their spending, which will ultimately affect GDP growth. The second is the need for tens of billions of dollars every year in government aid to keep the unemployed from becoming destitute. That support has increased deficits and the domino effect is that cash-strapped governments need to make more spending cuts. It may be the biggest challenge the economy faces. Unemployment has worsened because people over 65 to continue to work because the values of their homes–which they once counted on as the financial basis of their retirements–have dropped so sharply. Older Americans also fear that cuts in Medicare and perhaps Social Security are inevitable which increases the cost of their golden years. The jobs that older Americans have taken are often ones that younger Americans might have. People in their 20s must accept low wages to enter the workforce. This has delayed their prime consuming years well into their 30s which will damage GDP recovery now and for another decade. The worst of the unemployment problem is the roughly 5 million Americans who have been unemployed for over a year. Their unemployment benefits have run out in many cases. The burden of their care falls to their families, friends, community organizations, and non-profits. A family which has to support an unemployed person may be a family which cannot spend beyond its basic needs. To the extent that the federal or state governments can support the unemployed, the cost to run support programs increases.

8. Debt Ceiling

The United States debt ceiling,currently at $14.294 trillion, will probably be raised before the government has to cut back essential services on August 2. It might seem that the economic and employment effects of the debt cap are the same as the deficit, but they are actually more insidious and longer term. The first by-product of debt reduction, or at least a slowdown in its growth, is a combination of higher taxes and a lower level of government services. Higher taxes usually slow economic improvements, particularly when they are not couple with stimulus measures. A number of economists have pointed out the expense reduction alone will not sharply improve the United States balance sheet. The increase in Medicare and Social Securities costs, brought on by an aging population, are also likely to trigger a need for higher taxes. Tax increases could keep the economic growth of the US on hold for years. The taxation of companies decreases and often eliminates profits, particularly during an already troubled economic period. Profits which disappear usually cause cuts in purchasing and jobs. Taxes on wages and inheritance undermines consumer spending. And, a growth in national debt from already all-time highs will increase the borrowing costs of the US. That, in turn, drives up interest rates for everything from mortgages to credit cards.

9. Access To Credit

The lack of access to credit has hurt the economic activity or both individuals and small businesses. Many very large companies can borrow money at rates as low as 2% because of their strong cash flows and balance sheets. Banks have been much less willing to loan money to companies with under 100 workers because these firms often rely on a few customers for revenue and usually have very little money on hand. Early in June, the House Small Business Committee held hearings and among its findings were that concerns about risk and a slow economy has made financial institutions reluctant to lend to small businesses, the main driver of economic growth. Committee Chairman Sam Graves (R-MO) said Congress will need to “bridge the gap” between the two sides. There is no plan to accomplish that. Individual borrowers find themselves in a similar position. The cost of credit cards debt is still above 20% in many cases although the Federal Reserve loans money to large financial firms for interest rates close to zero. Potential home buyers, who might help break the gridlock of slow house sales, often find that banks want down payments as high as 20%. The median down payment in nine major U.S. cities rose to 22% last year on properties purchased through conventional mortgages, according to an analysis done for The Wall Street Journal by real-estate portal Zillow.com. That percentage doubled in three years and represents the highest median down payment since the data were first tracked in 1997. Home which are not sold often put such great burdens on owners that they are barely consumers of the goods and services that drive GDP. Home builders have continued to struggle. Construction jobs, which were a huge amount of the employment base in states like Florida, have not returned.

10. Housing

Housing is considered by many economists to be the single largest drag on the American economy, and the housing market has gotten much worse in the last two months. A report from The New York Federal Reserve published early this year said that “When home prices began to fall in 2007, owners’ equity in household real estate began to fall rapidly from almost $13.5 trillion in 1Q 2006 to a little under $5.3 trillion in 1Q 2009, a decline in total home equity of over 60%.” Real estate research firm Zillow reported on more recent developments. “Negative equity in the first quarter reached new highs with 28.4 percent of all single-family homes with mortgages underwater, from 27 percent in Q4.” Many homeowners who want to sell their homes cannot do so because they cannot afford to pay their banks at closing. Whether for good or ill, the American home was the primary source for money used for retirements, college educations, and the purchases of many expensive items such as cars. Economists point out the this leverage helped contribute to the credit crisis as people could not cover the costs of home equity loans as real estate values collapsed. This may be true, but the drop in value happened so quickly that the balance sheets of millions of Americans were destroyed. Their ability to consume was severely damaged, further harming GDP. High mortgage payments bankrupted or nearly bankrupted people who have lost jobs or have found that their incomes had stagnated. The building industry became a shambles overnight. And, whatever the effects have been over the last three years, they are getting progressively worse as home values drop to decade lows. There is no relief in sight because potential buyers worry that price erosion has not ended.

Douglas A. McIntyre
Here is a nice concise list that jibes with many other similar articles I've read. My issue with this talk of a double dip recession is that I am one of those in the survey mentioned here who believes there has not been a recovery. How can we talk about recovery when unemployment has been hovering around 10% since this whole mess started and credit has not been freed up despite the massive bailout to the banking industry? And that's not even counting those people who have dropped out of the work force altogether or who are working subpar jobs.

My own anecdotal experiences in the legal industry point to no recovery either as I have continued to lay off people since this mess started and cut costs wherever I can. Employment agencies are calling me with desperation to try and find jobs for their people and there are none to be had. Lawyers who before commanded 6 digit salaries were now accepting jobs in the 50-60k area for the same level work and on a non-partnership track. In fact the NYT reported last month on the slow creation of a two tiered lawyer system where you have lawyers working for the subpar salaries listed above and then the blessed few who would still get the 6 figures and the huge bonuses and be up for partner in 8-9 years.

What are people's thoughts? I am not an economic expert at all so maybe someone else can chime in on why we may experience a double dip, where the recovery happened, and what the economic future may hold for us.

My personal belief is that all of these economic woes may point to a scary little fact. We've been partying hard since the 80's on easy credit and loose regulations and now we're paying for it all. We've been living beyond our means and the tough to find credit may actually be lending instituions being realistic again and we don't like it. We're being downsized to where a "normal" economy should be.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by White Haven »

From my perspective way down near the bottom of the totem pole, I've been wondering what the fuck people have been on about when talking about 'a recovery.' Parts sales at my shop are still slow as hell, fewer people are electing to service their computers when not absolutely necessary, my hours are still cut back, and I haven't gotten a raise since it all fell in the pot to begin with. Average income is 'growing unusually slowly?' Try shrinking, in the real world of people who don't open a closet full of business suits before going to work in the morning.

I work in a small computer sales/repair shop that, aside from short-term credit that exists mainly to make buying from distributors simpler rather than to defer costs, doesn't owe anyone anything. We're not drowning under bad credit, we're not trying to rob people to keep pace with ruinous interest rates, and we're still slowly falling behind, operating at a loss and just trying to keep our heads above water until things stop sucking.

I'd love to be experiencing the 'slow growth' that economists are bitching and moaning about. There's no growth. There is, in fact, negative growth at the bottom of the stack, and that's been the case for years now. I'd love to see more reporting focusing on the side of the economy that actually employs people, produces things, and provides services, rather than the monopoly-money side.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Surlethe »

New GDP figures were actually released out yesterday. This graph says it all:

http://worthwhile.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8 ... ed3970b-pi

That means that the economy isn't even back up to the pre-recession peak and is (IIRC) still several percentage points beneath trend. So no, turns out there hasn't been a recovery.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by erik_t »

I don't think the technical definition of 'recovery' implies complete reversion to the previous level, but I won't claim to be an expert on the matter.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Tanasinn »

Did anyone believe that there had been any recovery for anyone but billionaires and banks? Not in my experience. It comes as no surprise that economic numbers do not indicate a recovery worth a tin shit.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by stm »

Completely anecdotal evidence, but there is indeed a recovery in certain sectors of the economy in certain parts of the country.

The company I work for can't find enough people to hire. And worse, for every person we do hire we lose one to being bought out by competitors with 20% pay increases. We have more projects than people and aren't the only ones in this situation since all of our competitors are trying to go after the same people. And I'm not just talking about people with a dozen years of experience, we are trying to get people fresh out of college (and we're not talking about Yale or Harvard here, but even freakin' DeVry) and most of them turn the offer down because they have another 3-4 offers laying around. The client I'm currently doing a project for (in a completely different sector) also can't find enough people to keep up with demand in the market and has been growing 400% over the last year.

Now obviously life sucks for a lot of other people in sectors that are less hot, and I'm by no means trying to delegitimize those concerns. Just trying to point out that it isn't all bad everywhere, and that certain business have taken off again to pre-recession like levels.


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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by JME2 »

Tanasinn wrote:Did anyone believe that there had been any recovery for anyone but billionaires and banks? Not in my experience. It comes as no surprise that economic numbers do not indicate a recovery worth a tin shit.
Recovery? What recovery?

They're doing fine, everyone else is not, and everyone in their 20's is utterly fucked.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by UnderAGreySky »

I hate to use a cliché, but shit just got real. Italy-Germany 10-year spreads have hit 3.5% (up from 1.5 just a couple of months ago).

But by all means, lets have some more 'austerity'.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Surlethe »

erik_t wrote:I don't think the technical definition of 'recovery' implies complete reversion to the previous level, but I won't claim to be an expert on the matter.
I don't believe the economy is considered to be recovered until it's back to the long-run trend. But I might be making up memories of definitions.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Tasoth »

I have to agree with Stravo in that it doesn't seem like there was ever a recovery from where I stand economically. I've watched my dad struggle more and more to pay bills and he works for the steel industry, so he has a pretty decent job.

I also find it interesting how they use the phrase 'several quarters' instead of years for talking about how long before we even begin to see an end.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Broomstick »

No, there wasn't a recovery unless you cherry pick the numbers from the few selected areas that still have some life in them. For a lot of people it's been all downhill since 2007.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I haven't had a full-time job since November 2008. What recovery?
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Lord Zentei »

The point regarding property values is moot, since the housing market was a ridiculously bloated bubble before the recession, and they're not going to go back. The point on the unemployment figures is far more relevant.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Broomstick »

During the so-called recovery period of 2009 unemployment U6 peaked at 17.3%, or 1 in 6 Americans either unemployed or underemployed.

Right now it's around 16% (latest figure I could find was for June, but it's probably close enough).

It boggles my mind that there are people who see nothing wrong with that situation.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by JME2 »

Broomstick wrote:It boggles my mind that there are people who see nothing wrong with that situation.
People believe what they want to believe. One of my aunt still thinks its nothing more than liberal media fear mongering... :roll:
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Big Orange »

I don't think there's been a proper recovery in recent years, the double dip is the huge amount of money squandered on the failing banks not really kick starting the global economy that's broken on a fundamental level and in Alabama, the use of food stamps have doubled over May.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by UnderAGreySky »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I haven't had a full-time job since November 2008. What recovery?
With all due respect, Chewie, your anecdote is not data :) Not that I disagree that there hasn't been a recovery in the true sense of the word, but it may not be the best argument to take.
Broomstick wrote:During the so-called recovery period of 2009 unemployment U6 peaked at 17.3%, or 1 in 6 Americans either unemployed or underemployed.
Is the U6 *always* quoted? If so, then I'm okay with it being used as an argument. If not, it's hardly fair to use U3 in good times and U6 in bad, is it? (Unless there's something I've missed)
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Simon_Jester »

As far as I can tell, Chewie isn't trying to prove there's no recovery, he's just joining the general commentary that unemployment is still high (even by non-U6 measures) and that economic malaise still affects the lower class quite seriously.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Broomstick »

UnderAGreySky wrote:Is the U6 *always* quoted? If so, then I'm okay with it being used as an argument. If not, it's hardly fair to use U3 in good times and U6 in bad, is it? (Unless there's something I've missed)
I, personally, almost always quote U6.

The "official" unemployment rate is U3, but I think it is a bad number and doesn't truly reflect the scope of the problem. If you work as little as 1 hour per week the U3 considers you "employed", which is nothing more than a fucking joke. Hell, U1 through U5 wouldn't count such a person as unemployed. 1 hour a week is functionally unemployed. You can't live on on that.

This site shows the U6 numbers and also, lower down the pages, defines the various U numbers, if anyone is interested.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Er, is U6 counting retirees, and if so how old? A 65-year-old might well be able to work and reasonably counted as part of the labor force, but in theory they also have (might have) the option of retiring from the work force entirely. By the time someone turns 75 or 80, they are very likely to have already decided to do that.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Broomstick »

No, U6 does not count retirees who are actually retired. It would count someone over 65 who is looking for work, or someone over 65 who wants to work full time but can only find part time work.

Nor would it count someone who is genuinely not in the job market. A stay at home mother who doesn't want or need to work outside the home, for example, would not be counted under U6.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Simon_Jester »

OK, good.

Anyway, the big advantage of U6, GreySky, is that it continues to track people who have been unemployed against their will for a long time, or who cannot find sufficient work to support themselves- they don't just vanish off the radar.

In good economic times, there aren't too many such people. Unless you're a really hopeless case, you can eventually find work when the economy is good. But after a year or two of high unemployment (and even by U3, unemployment was high in 2008-09), there are going to be a lot of people in this category. People who have given up due to depression or hundreds of failed job applications, people who are working a minimal part-time job to cover minimal living expenses (far below the poverty line) while living out of a room in their aging parents' house, all these people are very much 'casualties of the recession' from a social perspective. Their earnings and labor don't significantly contribute to the engines of economic growth and progress, they are as much a part of the unemployment problem as anyone else.

And yet U3 won't count them. U3 can actually go down after a protracted economic crunch, even if no new full-time jobs are being created, if people are ceasing to try and find work because they've given up. Or if jobs are split into part-time employment for two people who don't make enough to support themselves separately- two people working 20 hour weeks instead of one person working a 40 hour week is counted as higher employment under U3.

This is why U6 becomes an important number to track.
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UnderAGreySky
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by UnderAGreySky »

Simon,

Yes, I know the difference between U3 and U6. It's just that a lot of people - not meant to be a comment on Broomstick :) - talk about U6 only in bad times.

However, I did say "(Unless there's something I've missed)" because something at the back of my head was nagging me, and you've hit the nail on the head when you say that U3 can go down as people give up looking for work. I knew there was a reason why we should switch to U6 but couldn't put my finger on it - U3 is fine under normal conditions but it should be a rule that when U3 drops post-recession, we should always check U6 to confirm it's an increase in jobs and not a decrease in job-seekers.

Thanks for the clarification, both of you!
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Big Orange
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by Big Orange »

In the UK this is no sign of a healthy economy (though at least the national minimum wage is going up as of October):
Pay freeze 'for 75% of workers', says CIPD

Only a quarter of workers in the UK have had a pay rise so far this year, the Chartered Institute for Personnel and Development (CIPD) has said.

As most pay awards were made between January and May, the CIPD said this meant most staff would not receive a pay rise this year.

The findings partly reflect the government's current pay freeze for most public sector staff.

Four out of five public servants said they had not received a pay increase.

Charles Cotton of the CIPD said: "Even those who are lucky enough to get an increase in their pay will find it below the current cost of living, compounding consumer belt-tightening."

"We will see some increase in the number of private sector workers receiving a pay award in the second half of 2011, especially in the retail, catering and hotel sectors, as the increase to the national minimum wage comes into effect in October," he added.

Pay cuts

Chancellor George Osborne announced a two-year public sector pay freeze in his 2010 Budget, except for those paid less than £21,000 a year.

It affected some civil service departments first, in 2010, and has affected the others, plus the rest of the public sector, this year.

A small number of local authorities have gone further and have tried to impose pay cuts on their staff.

In July, Shropshire council sent letters to all its 6,500 employees, stating they would all be sacked on 30 September but immediately rehired, although with a 5.4% pay cut.

Some of Southampton City Council's 6,800 staff have been involved in a series of strikes in the past few months.

They have been objecting to plans, enforced at the start of July, to save money by, among other things, a reduction in their working hours and pay.

In June, Kettering General Hospital NHS Foundation Trust said it would ask all staff to accept a pay cut worth half a day's pay per month.
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Re: Double Dip Recession? What there ever a recovery?

Post by cosmicalstorm »

Here in Sweden there was kind of a recovery. A lot of big exporting companies lost almost all orders for a while in 2008, that did come back in 2009 and they rehired a lot of people since then. I expect this to change if the global economy crashes again, as it seems to be about to do.
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