Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

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Surlethe
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

Post by Surlethe »

Broomstick wrote:
Surlethe wrote:
Shadow of the Hegemon wrote:That's right! A 58% increase in the number of severely underweight babies! BABIES!
Yeah, from 24 to 38. Wow, who's surprised that in a major city of 600,000 people, there might be several dozen severely underweight babies? And only "severely underweight" by American standards, no less.
Go back to my post where I compare that child's weight to WHO guidelines. He's in the lowest 15% of body weight by world standards, not US.
Whoops, I misread your post. Sorry about that -- I was specifically referring to it.
Do you think that is somehow OK? Even if that's not low enough to die from lack of food, is a child stunted that much to be ignored simply because he lives in the US rather than some other place?

Is it somehow acceptable to you that even 38 or 24 babies in a city are that malnourished? We're not talking about kids that have a medical problem, these are kids that are just not getting enough to eat. How does that compare to European rates? I rather suspect Europe doesn't see that as often.
Of course not. I'm mocking the frankly stupid outrage at the huge increase in severe malnourishment, with no regard to the actual number (rel population). Treating a jump from 0.006% to 0.01% as HORRIBLE HORRIBLE OUTRAGE is silly, and ignores that the rates are negligible. I don't know what European rates are, perhaps appreciably lower than 0.01%*, but that's immaterial to my point.

Is it okay for any children to be that malnourished? No. Should we expect some nonzero number of children in any large enough society to be this malnourished? Yes. If the rate is negligible, will its relative year-over-year growth fluctuate wildly? Yes. Not worth the hyperbole.

* Calculated by assuming 30% of the 600,000 people in Boston are children.
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

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Serafina wrote:You get 364€ if you are single, 328€ per person if married (or living in a marriage-like relationship)...snip
In other words, a single person in Germany is given more money per month than TWO people are in the US, and they're allotted/allowed money to pay for basics like soap, toilet paper, toothpaste, etc.

Are there any German people on this forum willing to adopt two Americans? :D
If there was a genuine strategy to keep the poor fed&occupied, i'd rather go with something like the German system - because you can actually live decently off them.
Ah, but the goal isn't a decent living... just enough living to keep them from openly rebelling.
Also, there is the problem of “food deserts”. Detroit, for example has no grocery stores. NONE.
The only area where you could remotely find something like that would be out in the country. German retailers are based around small, local stores that carry all sorts of food and other items, but offer less selection than an american store would (so you might only have a choice between three cereals or two types of milk, but the store is much smaller). I have about three of those within 5-10 minute walking distance (in a city), they're just built into apartment blocks. Kinda like the Kwik-E Market from The Simpsons, i suppose. We don't have as many super-large retail stores, you'll generally only find those in suburbs or rural areas where people would have to drive a large distance anyway.
Most of our retail business is handled via these small stores. No fancy greeters or superlarge selections, rather cheap, mediocre-quality products. (Incidentally, that's why Wall-Mart failed utterly to establish itself in Germany - they had fierce competition with cheap prices already, and they utterly misunderstood german consumer culture).
I suspect that the closest relation in the US to what you're describing is, in fact, Aldi's which I understand started in Germany and was imported to the US. Less variety than a full size grocery store, but certainly all the basics and sufficient items to construct a healthy, even if not terribly exciting, diet. I sometimes think Aldi's presence in Gary, Indiana is what is preventing the place from becoming a complete food desert like Detroit.

We used to have stores like you describe built into apartment blocks in cities all over the US, but that has changed in the last 25 years. I haven't really sat down and analyzed why, though if anyone is interested in why the US abandoned the stores-in-apartment-blocks and stores-on-street-level-living-space-on-floors-above model which used to be common I might be able to throw out a few guesses.
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

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Would be happy to hear your thoughts.

Obvious candidates would be zoning, rent density (storekeepers may pay less rent per square foot of floor space than tenants)... any others?
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

Post by Zaune »

Simon_Jester wrote:Would be happy to hear your thoughts.

Obvious candidates would be zoning, rent density (storekeepers may pay less rent per square foot of floor space than tenants)... any others?
The economies of scale, and the politics of scale. The big supermarket chains have the clout to negotiate directly with the suppliers, and drive a hard bargain at that. The independent retailers can't compete on price, so they restrict their food offerings to basics like milk and bread, or convenience food; the consumer pays extra for not having to drive five miles to the supermarket.
Odd that the chains haven't moved into the convenience store market in the US themselves the way they have in Britain, though; are you folks really as car-dependent as Bill Bryson makes you out to be?
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

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Surlethe wrote:Of course not. I'm mocking the frankly stupid outrage at the huge increase in severe malnourishment, with no regard to the actual number (rel population). Treating a jump from 0.006% to 0.01% as HORRIBLE HORRIBLE OUTRAGE is silly, and ignores that the rates are negligible. I don't know what European rates are, perhaps appreciably lower than 0.01%*, but that's immaterial to my point.

Is it okay for any children to be that malnourished? No. Should we expect some nonzero number of children in any large enough society to be this malnourished? Yes. If the rate is negligible, will its relative year-over-year growth fluctuate wildly? Yes. Not worth the hyperbole.
My outrage (and really, it's not quite to what I would call "outrage", more "serious worry") is that this is a trend. There have, of course, always been isolated cases of genuine starvation/lack of calories in the US. It was rare, however, to see them in big cities, which is where what safety net the US has is at its strongest. Almost always they were cases of neglect, situations in which the parents could get enough food but failed to supply it. This is alarming because there is an increase in genuinely underweight children, and it's a matter of parents have actual difficult obtaining calories/nutrition, not merely neglect. Now is the time to nip this in the bud, not when it becomes a greater crisis.

Programs like food stamps and subsidized/free meals at public schools were started due to past instances where malnourishment or starvation were occurring in American children.

I will note the the U6 unemployment number (which captures inadequate as well as complete unemployment) in the US is now 17% as of June (the last month reported), or about 1 in 6 people. The use of food stamps in the US is now about 1 in 6. Interesting coincidence, is it not? In contrast, the U6 for 2006 was between 8 and 8.5% depending on what month you look at. I have not been able to locate a comparable statistic for food assistance in 2006, but I'd be curious to see what that is, and how it relates to the 2006 U6 as well as the current numbers.

Coincidentally, I received notice today that instead of having to reapply for food stamps every 6 months I will now only have to do so every 12 months. This is a relief, because while the official application form is only 4 pages the required documentation can be quite extensive. In my case, between 25 and 30 pages by the time everything is complete. Not only does it represent some time to assemble, but typically was costing $15-25 to complete and send in, money I'd much rather spend on something else like, um, toilet paper or soap (as an example). Is this a good sign or a bad one? Honestly, I don't know. Is someone sane enough to realize it's taking people longer to climb out of poverty? Is it because the system is getting overwhelmed and by extending the application process they're able to reduce the workload/backlog?

I used to be someone who donated to soup kitchens and pantries. Now I'm someone who visits them. Rinse and repeat several million times across the US. Is it as bad as Somalia? No, of course not - but if a first world country like the US can't keep it's population fed where will the food aid for a truly desperate situation like Somalia come from?
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

Post by Broomstick »

Zaune wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Would be happy to hear your thoughts.
Obvious candidates would be zoning, rent density (storekeepers may pay less rent per square foot of floor space than tenants)... any others?
The economies of scale, and the politics of scale. The big supermarket chains have the clout to negotiate directly with the suppliers, and drive a hard bargain at that. The independent retailers can't compete on price, so they restrict their food offerings to basics like milk and bread, or convenience food; the consumer pays extra for not having to drive five miles to the supermarket.

Odd that the chains haven't moved into the convenience store market in the US themselves the way they have in Britain, though; are you folks really as car-dependent as Bill Bryson makes you out to be?
Yes, Bill Bryson got that right.

Actually, Wal-Mart is now attempting to move into the convenience store market in Chicago, but that is partly due to the City of Chicago having sufficient clout to make it a condition of Wal-Mart entering Chicago proper at all. That's just this year, it will be interesting to see if it succeeds or not.

It's not just economies of scale. When I moved to Chicago in the early 1980's there the small food store incorporated into the apartment block was still common. Genuinely common. That was partly because an "apartment block" in Chicago might well consist of a row of 40 foot skyscrapers - there was a HUGE population on the block to draw from.

However, in the intervening years, zoning rules changed, in some cases either eliminating such stores (resulting in strictly residential blocks where before the street level had been all sorts of little businesses) or making their existence more difficult. At one point the city council actively tried to move all businesses to strip malls thought a combination of zoning changes, onerous additional regulations on "storefronts" (that's what they call such businesses in the Chicago area), and changes in property taxes on business property that drastically increased the cost of business. The result is that the former web of small business in local neighborhoods has vanished.

Here's an exercise anyone with a Netflix or other video account can do. Rent the original Blues Brothers movie. That was filmed in and around Chicago. The Loop/downtown scenes are what I'm talking about here. In that movie you can see that on street level there are rows of small businesses - pharmacies, barbar shops, newstands. That's all the street level was. Those businesses are now completely gone. ALL of them. The SRO where the boys were in a ridiculously small single room (with a high ceiling) with the train going by outside? That was a real SRO. You could rent by the day, week, or month. Yeah, pretty cramped but it beats a cardboard box on the street and for the poor could function as a permanent address. (You could also stay overnight in one - my spouse did so a couple of times when he was caught in the Loop by severe weather, rather than attempt to drive the freeways.) They were minimal, but cheap. They kept the poor and minimally functional out of the weather and off the streets. Gone, all gone, shut down by the city via changes in code.

Oddly enough, in my area, I have recently seen a large, formerly single-family home converted to single-room rentals "by the week or the month". Is it an ideal situation? No, of course not, but better than homelessness.

Of course, I am speaking of only the Chicago area, but you can't blame this on big business - part of it was a deliberate elimination of old system. The motivations were varied - some felt the old style was old fashioned or seedy-looking, some thought to profit by building a strip mall that the businesses would then be forced to move into, and so on. It was not, however, accidental or a side effect of suburbia and cars. The street-level businesses survived into the 1980's in Chicago, but did not survive the 1990's.

Now, to be fair, there has been some push-back. For instance, the underground pedway in Chicago has a fair number of businesses of this sort, although construction and remodeling also pushed some out of business as well. However, the pedway is not very well known to tourists or casual visitors and thus does not capture that potential market. It's known to commuters who take the trains to and from work and that's about it. Some large office buildings have stores off their lobbies - but no street entrances, which discourages casual shoppers as they now have to go through the lobby of a business to access such stores. And out in the neighborhoods these stores are largely just gone. On the north side Clark and Broadway still have some blocks of survivors, and parts of Sheridan road but they're barely hanging on. Torrance avenue and Halstead on the south side still have some surviving storefront areas, but they're circling the drain. Five streets out of a city that used to have these stores on virtually every block of every street.
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If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

Post by Zaune »

Broomstick wrote:Yes, Bill Bryson got that right.
Bloody hell.

And that might explain the conspicuous absence of home delivery services as well, which would probably go a long way towards alleviating the food desert problem.
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

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As a general rule, home delivery services for food are only available in well-to-do neighborhoods, and usually charge a pretty good rate for the services. The exception would be Meals on Wheels, which relies heavily on volunteers.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

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If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

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Broomstick wrote:I suspect that the closest relation in the US to what you're describing is, in fact, Aldi's which I understand started in Germany and was imported to the US. Less variety than a full size grocery store, but certainly all the basics and sufficient items to construct a healthy, even if not terribly exciting, diet. I sometimes think Aldi's presence in Gary, Indiana is what is preventing the place from becoming a complete food desert like Detroit
Well yes, Aldi is indeed such an example.

So keep in mind that the "small business can not profit from economy of scale" doesn't apply here - those small stores are owned by large companies, who were able to outcompete Wall-Mart on the German market quite easily. (Incidentally, i did not know that Aldi was even operating in the US).

I really wonder why they changed those zoning laws. Small stores are hardly disruptive or noisy (and besides, German ones close around 8 PM anyway) and they are extremely convenient for residents of the area. Either no one asked the residents, or they only listened to the people who had easy access to car-based mobility.
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

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Serafina wrote:
Broomstick wrote:I suspect that the closest relation in the US to what you're describing is, in fact, Aldi's which I understand started in Germany and was imported to the US. Less variety than a full size grocery store, but certainly all the basics and sufficient items to construct a healthy, even if not terribly exciting, diet. I sometimes think Aldi's presence in Gary, Indiana is what is preventing the place from becoming a complete food desert like Detroit
Well yes, Aldi is indeed such an example.

So keep in mind that the "small business can not profit from economy of scale" doesn't apply here - those small stores are owned by large companies, who were able to outcompete Wall-Mart on the German market quite easily. (Incidentally, i did not know that Aldi was even operating in the US).
Aldi has been in the US since 1976. I first started shopping at them as a poor college student in the early 1980's. It has only been in the past few years that they started advertising their presence in the US via TV, radio, and print ads so it may be that they have simply been invisible all this time. There's around 1500 of them in the US these days. There is an interesting variety of German-origin goods in our local Aldi's, including the only authentic German pumpernickel in my area. I do know they source as much of the fruit and vegetables locally as possible, which makes a lot of the produce seasonal, although I'm pretty sure their mangoes weren't grown in Indiana. :) But apparently mangoes are a popular fruit in this area, ALL the stores sell them. Anyhow, most of the canned goods are canned in Melrose Park, Illinois (another Chicago suburb) according to the labels, as is much of the boxed stuff like noodles. I suspect part of the savings involved significantly lower transportation costs than, say, shipping things thousands of kilometers from California. (Of course, things like orange juice and ocean fish have to be shipped thousands of kilometers to reach my area, but that's due to the ocean and orange-friendly climate being that far away)
I really wonder why they changed those zoning laws. Small stores are hardly disruptive or noisy (and besides, German ones close around 8 PM anyway) and they are extremely convenient for residents of the area. Either no one asked the residents, or they only listened to the people who had easy access to car-based mobility.
I'd really like to discuss that, only it would totally side track this into Chicago politics with a helping of corruption on top. Suffice to say, the logic involved was not entirely based on the greatest good for the community, but more for the enrichment of certain powerful parties. And the fact that Richard M. Daley thought the Chicago sidewalk newstands were "trashy". It had nothing to do with "car based mobility" in the downtown Chicago as the entire city has become very much less car friendly during that time period as well.
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If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

Post by Zaune »

Broomstick wrote:As a general rule, home delivery services for food are only available in well-to-do neighborhoods, and usually charge a pretty good rate for the services. The exception would be Meals on Wheels, which relies heavily on volunteers.
I'm talking about delivery of groceries purchased over the Internet rather than something like Meals on Wheels. I think just about all the major UK supermarket chains offer it now, to anywhere within ten or fifteen miles of one of their stores; the surcharge is either a flat rate or per mile I think, but when I was living in East Dorset I could get the equivalent of eight bags of groceries delivered for less than the price of a single return bus ticket, and I couldn't have carried half as much home on the bus with me.
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Re: Chronic Child Hunger In The USA

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Yes. As I said, such services in the US are generally only available in wealthy neighborhoods, and usually charge a premium. The exception is Meals on Wheels, which is not open to everyone.

Unless it's something you can ship via mail without spoiling, of course. Getting stuff in the mail is available to almost everyone in the US.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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