Bluewolf wrote:Mhm and it's wrong, however I had no part in that and I couldn't have reasonably influenced it. I disagree with it. However this doesn't mean I am magically not allowed to condemn torture in other nations. In some ways you could argue that the US should be working a lot harder to actually avoid it, given it's emphasis on freedom.
Yeah, if you consistently opposed torture both in the US and abroad, I don't see how opposing torture and being a U.S. citizen constitutes hypocrisy. It is only hypocrisy if you SUPPORT US torture while opposing torture in some other nation. In this case, yeah, you're a hypocrite, but not if you oppose it universally.
And I'm not referring to any US citizens opposing torture by their own government, mind you. I'm talking specifically about people from nations with a long record of torture and other bad shit and yet love jumping all over the US torture issue.
The best people to speak out against this sort of torture are the victims themselves. Like say, this guy:
Who was eventually released by the US and is now testifying in various cases against the US and German governments for his mistreatment.
Torture is a crime against individual people. You want to help those people, great. But count me skeptical when someone from Europe says that the US shouldn't torture people out of "principle". Because that particular continent's record on it isn't exactly grand.
Zinegata wrote:
Torture is a crime against individual people. You want to help those people, great. But count me skeptical when someone from Europe says that the US shouldn't torture people out of "principle". Because that particular continent's record on it isn't exactly grand.
Yes, because people calling on others to stop torture which is CURRENTLY OCCURRING is such a terrible thing.
Zinegata, I suggest looking up the ad hominem fallacy, and specifically the variation of it called the tu quoque fallacy. And then stop using the argument because it's fucking stupid.
Zinegata wrote:
Torture is a crime against individual people. You want to help those people, great. But count me skeptical when someone from Europe says that the US shouldn't torture people out of "principle". Because that particular continent's record on it isn't exactly grand.
Yes, because people calling on others to stop torture which is CURRENTLY OCCURRING is such a terrible thing.
Fuck.
It ain't a terrible thing at all. It's good when people sincerely speak out against torture.
What's terrible is when people use the issue because they want to cheap-shot the US, rather than because they sincerely care about the victims. That's just exploiting other people's suffering. And that is a terrible thing.
Bluewolf wrote:Mhm and it's wrong, however I had no part in that and I couldn't have reasonably influenced it. I disagree with it. However this doesn't mean I am magically not allowed to condemn torture in other nations. In some ways you could argue that the US should be working a lot harder to actually avoid it, given it's emphasis on freedom.
Yeah, if you consistently opposed torture both in the US and abroad, I don't see how opposing torture and being a U.S. citizen constitutes hypocrisy. It is only hypocrisy if you SUPPORT US torture while opposing torture in some other nation. In this case, yeah, you're a hypocrite, but not if you oppose it universally.
And I'm not referring to any US citizens opposing torture by their own government, mind you. I'm talking specifically about people from nations with a long record of torture and other bad shit and yet love jumping all over the US torture issue.
The best people to speak out against this sort of torture are the victims themselves. Like say, this guy:
Who was eventually released by the US and is now testifying in various cases against the US and German governments for his mistreatment.
Torture is a crime against individual people. You want to help those people, great. But count me skeptical when someone from Europe says that the US shouldn't torture people out of "principle". Because that particular continent's record on it isn't exactly grand.
Now you're being an idiot. Modern Europeans who consistently oppose torture are not in any way different from Americans who speak out against the same.
Everyone has a right to speak out against torture. End of story. Regardless of the record of his own nation. As you said, torture is an individual thing. Unless you're ardently supporting your own torturers, you can speak out against it without any hypocrisy.
The problem is when they speak out only against foreign torture. If they speak out against ALL torture, neither being European nor being American is a problem.
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Stas Bush wrote:The problem is when they speak out only against foreign torture. If they speak out against ALL torture, neither being European nor being American is a problem.
This is exactly what I'm trying to say, actually. Maybe I wasn't clear when I said this:
I'm talking specifically about people from nations with a long record of torture and other bad shit and yet love jumping all over the US torture issue.
If they sincerely speak out against all torture, that's cool.
Maybe you're responding to this bit:
But count me skeptical when someone from Europe says that the US shouldn't torture people out of "principle". Because that particular continent's record on it isn't exactly grand.
Where I am saying my own personal skepticism about the general sincerity of an average European regarding helping a bunch of Muslims detainees out. I'm more inclined to believe they just want to engage in US-bashing than actually help the torture victims. Maybe we should see a greater push from Europe to help fix their previous messes?
It is unfair to chastise Europe for not fixing "their previous messes" when the US had zero intent to do anything about "their previous mess" too. The US had a piss poor human rights record when it came to foreigners in hostile territories for centuries.
Besides, I haven't seen Thanas being exactly super-happy about Eurocollaborants (really, can't call them any other name) with the recent torture scandals - i.e. Baltics and Romania which housed secret torture black sites, etc. Or with France's actions in Africa, for that matter.
As for U.S. bashing - the fact is that modern global oligarchy has so dispossessed its subjects of any political power that they are, in fact, left with nothing but venting as a result. The US is often a target of these vents because it is the current hegemon. It is a subconscious urge to criticize the hegemon because the leader always takes greater responsibilities.
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Zinegata wrote:I mean really, have any of the former European imperialist states ever given an apology to all of the people they tortured as part of their imperialist policies? Has Belgium said sorry to the Congo yet for hacking the limbs off of people in the name of rubber production?
Germany has apologized to the colonies it had.
Zinegata wrote:The best people to speak out against this sort of torture are the victims themselves. Like say, this guy:
Who was eventually released by the US and is now testifying in various cases against the US and German governments for his mistreatment.
Oh yes, especially when the US uses state secrets privilege to just squash any lawsuits against it. Like Khalid el-Masri. What cases has Kurnaz won btw?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
Well, Europe has no military popwer to stop America's crimes, but it can hit the US in the wallet,
For example, if the EU banned the sale of all american films & music in their member states, it'd cost the US Billions. And since directors, actors & musicians are so prominent in the US, such a carpet boycott would force the issue to the surface & politicians to act.
I know it sounds far fetched, but I'm sure such a hit would force celebrities to engage their political acquaintances to do something. Like when Fred Rogers testified to the Supreme Court in favor of Timeshifting. Of course, there are none in American celebrity now whop can come close to the kind of man Mr Rogers was. Oprah has power & influence though, maybe we can contact her, ask her to get Obama to grow a pair, since he owes her the election.
ComradeClaus wrote:Well, Europe has no military popwer to stop America's crimes, but it can hit the US in the wallet,
For example, if the EU banned the sale of all american films & music in their member states, it'd cost the US Billions. And since directors, actors & musicians are so prominent in the US, such a carpet boycott would force the issue to the surface & politicians to act.
I know it sounds far fetched, but I'm sure such a hit would force celebrities to engage their political acquaintances to do something. Like when Fred Rogers testified to the Supreme Court in favor of Timeshifting. Of course, there are none in American celebrity now whop can come close to the kind of man Mr Rogers was. Oprah has power & influence though, maybe we can contact her, ask her to get Obama to grow a pair, since he owes her the election.
What's going to stop the American government from retaliating with trade restrictions of its own? You're effectively gambling trillions of dollars/euros on the hope that the American people - still being influenced by the American 'news' media - will sufficiently intimidate the government into doing what you want it to. Is this a bet you really want to take? I wouldn't if I were in your position.
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
What is Project Zohar? "On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it."- RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
ComradeClaus wrote:Well, Europe has no military popwer to stop America's crimes, but it can hit the US in the wallet,
For example, if the EU banned the sale of all american films & music in their member states, it'd cost the US Billions. And since directors, actors & musicians are so prominent in the US, such a carpet boycott would force the issue to the surface & politicians to act.
I know it sounds far fetched, but I'm sure such a hit would force celebrities to engage their political acquaintances to do something. Like when Fred Rogers testified to the Supreme Court in favor of Timeshifting. Of course, there are none in American celebrity now whop can come close to the kind of man Mr Rogers was. Oprah has power & influence though, maybe we can contact her, ask her to get Obama to grow a pair, since he owes her the election.
What's going to stop the American government from retaliating with trade restrictions of its own? You're effectively gambling trillions of dollars/euros on the hope that the American people - still being influenced by the American 'news' media - will sufficiently intimidate the government into doing what you want it to. Is this a bet you really want to take? I wouldn't if I were in your position.
I'm not sure the US would react to a cultural boycott w/ a boycott in another industry. While European culture makes nil money in the US, the demand in the US for european cars is immense, & thus unlikely to be boycotted. If it did, then the EU would respond w/ further boycotts in those industries. How much money does the American Auto industry make in the EU anyhow? The point is, the EU needs to grow some ballz & learn to stand up to the US. Angry words are meaningless, the US fanatics only understand action.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
ComradeClaus wrote:I'm not sure the US would react to a cultural boycott w/ a boycott in another industry. While European culture makes nil money in the US, the demand in the US for european cars is immense, & thus unlikely to be boycotted. If it did, then the EU would respond w/ further boycotts in those industries. How much money does the American Auto industry make in the EU anyhow? The point is, the EU needs to grow some ballz & learn to stand up to the US. Angry words are meaningless, the US fanatics only understand action.
See, this is exactly what I'm getting at. You're talking about a legislature that recently had a hard time deciding whether or not it wanted to meet its obligations, do you really want to gamble the livelihoods of many Europeans on American politicans doing what you perceive to be the sensible thing? I'm not claiming that Europe is dependent on trade with the US, but it will still be very painful to get into a trade war against an administration and legislature that doesn't give a shit about its own populace.
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
What is Project Zohar? "On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it."- RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
The only way a trade war might work is if everyone got in on it, then waited for americans to start rebelling. But what are the chances of that happening?
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Ziggy Stardust wrote:There are no viable third parties.
There's plenty of viable third parties, the only problem is the American left are a bunch of fucking cowards too afraid to loose an election to vote for someone who actually represents them.
Ziggy Stardust wrote:There are no viable third parties.
There's plenty of viable third parties, the only problem is the American left are a bunch of fucking cowards too afraid to loose an election to vote for someone who actually represents them.
One, you're making a pretty fucking big generalization.
Two, there is good reason to be afraid of losing an election if it means someone like Michelle Bachman could become President.
Three, why does one have to vote against the Democrats, instead of simply voting for further left Democrats in primaries?
That's not a democracy, that's politicians playing good cop/bad cop with the electorate.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
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Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
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Metahive wrote:That's not a democracy, that's politicians playing good cop/bad cop with the electorate.
Presuming that was directed at me, wouldn't your good cop/bad cop analogy only hold up if the two main parties are actually on the same side, in which case you're arguably going into fringe conspiracy theory territory?
Regardless, all of my prior points are perfectly valid.
Only if you take the analogy overly literally. "Elect me or you'll have to deal with that guy over there who's less nice than I am" is playing good cop/bad cop, no matter if they're on the same side and arguing that they're both primarily beholden to the fat cats isn't really much of a conspiracy theory.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
The Romulan Republic wrote:One, you're making a pretty fucking big generalization.
Yes I am, it also happens to be a valid generalization as you so well prove.
Two, there is good reason to be afraid of losing an election if it means someone like Michelle Bachman could become President.
That first assumes that Michelle Bachman ever had a chance of becoming President, she doesn't even have the support within the Republican Party to win the nomination. Two, if we assume that you lot are correct and the further shift rightward is going to 'destroy' America, then continuously voting for the Democrats makes it inevitable since all you're doing is slowing the Republican ability to pull further righ by voting for candidates who are completely willing to ignore their voting base because they know they're a bunch of cowards who will give them votes simply because they don't have an (R) next to their name.
Three, why does one have to vote against the Democrats, instead of simply voting for further left Democrats in primaries?
I didn't say you had to vote for third parties, that's your strawman. What I did say is that there are plenty of third parties who are completely legitimate, the only problem is the American liberals are either too lazy or too cowardly to put any work into getting real leftists (rather than the current Center-Right Democrats) into power.
are meaningless, the US fanatics only understand action. 
