300,000 in protests at Israeli capital.

[SirNitram]

Link

TEL AVIV--The Israeli people delivered a resounding response to the government Saturday night after a week of attempts by Benjamin Netanyahu's government to contain the growing protest movement here. Between 300,000 and 400,000 people took to the streets under the banner of demanding "social justice," doubling the numbers from the week before and rivaling the largest protests the country has ever seen.

In Tel Aviv alone, around half the city's population turned out in front of the Defense Ministry to listen to speeches from community leaders that span the political spectrum. Proportionally speaking, the numbers that turned out Saturday would be the equivalent of 14 million people protesting in the United States.

What's now clear is that the secular plurality of Israel is seeking to reclaim the political power it has lost in the last decade-plus. It is an "awakening"--a word now common in the protest parlance--of historic proportions that comes after a period of political apathy by secular Israelis. That apathy was attributed by many here to society-wide post-traumatic stress following the collapse of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, the second Palestinian intifada, the 2006 Lebanon War, the 2008-09 Gaza War, and the resulting desire to escape the grind of daily conflict.

In part, that escapism produced what Israelis refer to as "the Tel Aviv bubble"--a world-class city with a hi-tech corridor that is dedicated to the proposition of enjoying life and ignoring the conflict around it. But it also led to the secular plurality ceding much political power to a group of around 20 exceedingly wealthy families, the ultra-Orthodox, and the West Bank settlers, all of whom were far more politically organized and determined to transform Israel in their image.

Just how much of that power secular Israel can reclaim remains to be seen. On Sunday, Netanyahu announced the formation of a special committee comprised of leaders from the government, business, and academia to look into measures to reduce the burden on the middle class. An emergency session of the Knesset will take place later this week.

Netanyahu himself comes from the ranks of secular Israel that is disenchanted and as a result of that, and the movement's desire to maintain unity, the protest to date remains largely free of explicitly anti-Netanyahu rhetoric. But it is difficult to see how the prime minister will be able to deliver on the chief demands of the movement for three reasons.

First, his government coalition cannot survive without the participation of the religious and settler parties, each of which stands to lose from any reorganization of government priorities.

Second, Netanyahu is a firm believer in neo-classical economics. It was during his tenure as prime minister and treasury minister that most of Israel's market liberalization and privatization was enacted. Redistributing wealth and boosting social programs runs against his beliefs.

Third, the prime minister remains distinctly aloof from the struggle, and has had moments of treating participants of the movement with the disdain he normally reserves for political opponents and foreigners he considers ignorant of Israel's complex realities. Indeed, last week, he derisively referred to the protests as a "populist wave" that threatened to engulf the country, alienating many, including right-wingers who express affinity for the protest causes.

"First they called us 'communists,' then they called us 'fascists,' 'anarchists,' 'radicals,' 'sushi-eaters,' and even 'ugly people,'" protest leader Stav Shaffir said, referring to a series of comments made by members of the Netanyahu government toward the protesters. "After three weeks of seeing the government mocking our demands I'm not really sure we can go into negotiations with them" at the current time.

But if the Likud-led government cannot at least partially mollify the protestors soon, the building pressure on the political coalition may cause it to crack, paving the way for early elections. As the popular columnist Nachum Barnea wrote in Israel's largest newspaper, Yidiot Acharonot, Sunday: "The general sense is that the government is out of touch with the difficulties faced by the average citizen, has failed to provide adequate services and has taken an unjust approach in terms of the division of the burden and the division of privileges. Netanyahu and his ministers won't be able to ignore this outcry. Not because they believe that that outcry is justified, but because it reflects a force that threatens their continued hold on power."

The job for Netanyahu got even harder on Sunday as the Tel Aviv stock market plunged seven percent in response to a global market downturn. While he now says "enormous changes" are coming in the Israeli economy, the prime minister is also insisting that Israel continue to curb overall spending and reduce its debt.

In the meantime, the ranks of the protest movement continue to swell. The crowd in Tel Aviv on Saturday was much more diverse in terms of age and ethnicity than the crowds in the last two demonstrations. And since last week, smaller but significant protests by students, doctors, dairy farmers, retirees, parents, and many others have become a daily occurrence around the country. This adds to the sense that a popular, non-violent revolt against the status quo has been joined by nearly all of secular Israel.

In addition to its sheer size and popularity, the mood of the protest is also far different than others in Israeli history. "Israel has had sad demonstrations, angry demonstrations and demonstrations that radiated a show of force and determination. I don't think Israel has ever had a demonstration of this size that evinced so much happiness, positivity and solidarity," Barnea wrote.

In essence, Tel Aviv is now a potent mix of joie de vivre and political activism. It is a combination that has spontaneously galvanized an entire generation of Israelis and is presenting a forceful challenge to the social and political paradigm that has dominated the Jewish state for the last decade.

If my math is right, that's 4% of Israel on the streets, protesting. That's ALOT.

[Ace Pace]

Speaking for the moment from inside the "tel aviv bubble" mentioned in the article. A central theme running throughout these protests is "no one can end the month in the black", regardless of economic position. An example of this was in the Globe (a generally capitalist magazine) of a couple who earn a combined 45k per month describing how their salary is insufficient, with no frills. This amount is straight "rich" here.
However, it's not just rich white men complaining. In the last half year, most of the public sector has protested over some aspect of their wages, with strong public support.
Now outside the bubble. This is not new. In jerusalem, the largest city by far, over a third of the population is poor. Large fractions of the young generation have a hard time finding a job.
This has been ongoing nearly a decade and i guess the trigger is "enough defense, it's obvious no one is going to kill us now, lets refocus".

[Stravo]

You know, I always admire this spirit of protest and being vocal about what you don't like that I see in many countries outside the US. What does it take to get people mobilized here? I mean the rents in NYC have been laughably high since as long as I can remember and while we had a slight (I stress the slight) downward trend in rents during the height of the downturn of 2008 it is now creeping back up.

You can say, its always been like that in NY and always will be like that, but you know what? I bet if 300,000 people marched down Broadway to City Hall then maybe something might be done about it. Instead people here seem to shrug their shoulders and say "what can you do?"

That kind of attitude makes a mockery of democracy and the power of the people. In Europe, especially France, people mobilize if there is a hint that the government is going to mess with their benefits. A friend who went to Italy for a summer told me how they had a general strike in the country over some aspect of a single union's benefits he didn't understand but that there was solidarity there among all the people over a single union's rights.

Here, they can shit all over you and the fat dumb public shrugs and says "What can you do?"

If the Vietnam war were raging and you transported this lot of sheep to the 60's we'd still be there. So I say good for them! They might get some action, over here we'll still shell $3000 for a studio apt the size of a roach motel while wondering how to pay for medical bills. Because after all, what can you do?

[Big Orange]

According to this article supposedly Israel's wealth disparity is beginning to resemble Russia's, with the majority of the nation's wealth concentrated within the hands of only around two dozen families. How did that happen? Economic decay and stagnation seems to be everywhere in the West.

[ComradeClaus]

Has the Arab population joined the protests?

Yeah, I wish we had a "Million Man March" in DC to protest the Republicans actions w/ the debt ceiling. The apathy inertia in the US is crippling!

300,000 people is a lot wherever it happens. It's ironic that after all the protests in neighboring muslim nations, the Israeli conservatives are getting their own taste of color (orange? purple? blue? white?) revolution.

[evilsoup]

You can say, its always been like that in NY and always will be like that, but you know what? I bet if 300,000 people marched down Broadway to City Hall then maybe something might be done about it.

Aahahaha, no. Peaceful protest can only work when there is a serious threat of violence to back it up. For example, in London we had a million-man march in the lead-up to the Iraq war, which was completely ignored. I fully expect this Israel march to have approximately the same effect.

[eyl]

Has the Arab population joined the protests?

To a degree (more now than a week ago, say). Parts of the religious, Ultra-Orthodox, and settler populations* have also joined the protests.

*Yes, I know these catagories overlap to a considerable degree

300,000 people is a lot wherever it happens. It's ironic that after all the protests in neighboring muslim nations, the Israeli conservatives are getting their own taste of color (orange? purple? blue? white?) revolution.

Well, it's not really conservatives per se. To be fair, most of these problems predate the current government (or even the last several governments), although OTOH the government didn't do much to improve the situation (and made it worse in some ways) since they came into power.

Aahahaha, no. Peaceful protest can only work when there is a serious threat of violence to back it up. For example, in London we had a million-man march in the lead-up to the Iraq war, which was completely ignored. I fully expect this Israel march to have approximately the same effect.

Not necessarily. Ultimately, the leaders have to stand for reelection, and given that the protests have even reached Likud bastions such as Beit She'an, they're at risk (not to mention that there are a lot of noviolent protest measures which can still be done before resorting to violence).

[The Romulan Republic]

You can say, its always been like that in NY and always will be like that, but you know what? I bet if 300,000 people marched down Broadway to City Hall then maybe something might be done about it.

Aahahaha, no. Peaceful protest can only work when there is a serious threat of violence to back it up. For example, in London we had a million-man march in the lead-up to the Iraq war, which was completely ignored. I fully expect this Israel march to have approximately the same effect.

A large enough resistance should be able to completely shut down a country through strikes and civil disobedience without shedding a drop of blood. Granted, such things are difficult to organize in practice, but I find your automatic, knee jerk dismissal of non-violent protest as essentially useless and laughable to be disturbing and contemptible, and an insult to the proud tradition of civil disobedience and non-violent reform.

[bobalot]

From what I have read (please feel to correct me), secular Israeli's have been building up resentment for some time at the Religious/Ultra-Orthodox about their privileges.

[NecronLord]

According to this article supposedly Israel's wealth disparity is beginning to resemble Russia's, with the majority of the nation's wealth concentrated within the hands of only around two dozen families. How did that happen? Economic decay and stagnation seems to be everywhere in the West.

One Israeli friend of mine taught me a phrase:

Israel is a Third World country with First World technology.

It's been like this for a long time, for precisely the same reason that this is the case in Russia.

Really Really Wealthy Families [tm] have Connections [tm].

It has nothing to do with 'decay' in the West.

[eyl]

From what I have read (please feel to correct me), secular Israeli's have been building up resentment for some time at the Religious/Ultra-Orthodox about their privileges.

To a considerable extent. First of all, the Ultra-Orthodox (haredim) are effectively exempt from conscription. Ultra-Orthodox yeshiva students get a stipend from the state. A large amount of the Ultra-Orthodox don't work as a result, either for ideological reason ("Torah study is more important than secular work") or because if they work, they lose their status as yeshiva students which leads to a loss of their stipend and/or their draft exemption (there are a fair amount who do work but do so "under the table", so as to avoid losing their student status or, in some cases I've heard of, having their families disapprove of them for not studying, in which case they both get the stipend and don't pay taxes).* Add to that the fact that they ususally have large families, which entails its own stipend. This leads up for a great deal of resentment by secular Israelis, especially the middle-class ones who on the one hand serve in the Reserves and fight in the wars and on the other hand pay most of the taxes which go to support the Ultra-Orthodox. On top of that, you have the rather irritating antics they come out with every once in a while and elements of religious coercion (e.g. the violent protests here in Jerusalem because the city opened a car park on Saturday).

Not all this is the haredim's fault - while I don't like the idea, changing the law so they can legally work without being drafted may get more of them into employment, as can better enforcement against the various forms of "under the table" employment (which comes down to tax fraud). But there needs to be a serious change in their community as well.

I should note that while many of the protestors have called for reducing funds to the haredim, many of the problems which caused the protest are shared by both sectors - the high cost of living affects everyone.

*I should note, however, that this doesn't apply to all the haredim; there are considerable numbers who do work, and do so legally.

[Faqa]

Not all this is the haredim's fault - while I don't like the idea, changing the law so they can legally work without being drafted may get more of them into employment, as can better enforcement against the various forms of "under the table" employment (which comes down to tax fraud)

While you're right that it isn't entirely the haredim's fault - a recent article about them had one of them stating "Why on earth does the government let us not serve in the military? They should MAKE us!" - the solution is to close the hole, not legitimize their bad behavior by letting them actually earn money legally while not discharging their duties. You think society hates them now? Wait till they're getting a 3-year head start on careers as opposed to their secular counterparts.

The solution is at least partially being implemented by setting up special programs to help them go through the military. And having the military bend over backwards to accomodate their demands, which is *not* cool, but that's another story.

As to the other point, tax fraud in this country is practically a goddamn tradition - tutors, handymen, cab drivers, landlords, all of them are usually paid in cash under-the-table. Crack down on those first. The haredim usually do low-pay menial stuff (they don't have the skills for independent trade work, and you just can't build a legit career under-the-table) that is barely worth taxing in the first place.

On the protests themselves, the funny thing is that the problem is really a combination between free-market capitalism and excessive socialism - on the one hand, the cost of living is high because of prices set by the free market. On the other hand, a lot of the time, the prices set are by government-sanctioned monopolies like the dairy market (there are laws barring anyone from importing certain types of cheeses and milks, for example), which are holdovers from when this country was hardcore socialist. So we have greedy private companies propped up the government to compete in anti-competitive ways. It's a clusterfuck that's coming home to roost.

But no, this protest is not about religion. It's not about politics. That's actually a point of pride of the rally, that they unite Left, Right, religious, secular, whatever. They see themselves as fighting for the people, not any particular cause.

[wautd]

300000? Wow, I'm surprised about the number, but even more surprised the mainstream media hasn't picked up on this already (it all goes to London riots right now)

[eyl]

Not all this is the haredim's fault - while I don't like the idea, changing the law so they can legally work without being drafted may get more of them into employment, as can better enforcement against the various forms of "under the table" employment (which comes down to tax fraud)

While you're right that it isn't entirely the haredim's fault - a recent article about them had one of them stating "Why on earth does the government let us not serve in the military? They should MAKE us!" - the solution is to close the hole, not legitimize their bad behavior by letting them actually earn money legally while not discharging their duties. You think society hates them now? Wait till they're getting a 3-year head start on careers as opposed to their secular counterparts.

Like I said, I don't like the idea; I'm just not sure getting them through the military is politically possible (or worth the trouble), so we may have to settle for the imperfect solution.

As to the other point, tax fraud in this country is practically a goddamn tradition - tutors, handymen, cab drivers, landlords, all of them are usually paid in cash under-the-table. Crack down on those first. The haredim usually do low-pay menial stuff (they don't have the skills for independent trade work, and you just can't build a legit career under-the-table) that is barely worth taxing in the first place.

You may be surprised. Quite a few haredim are investing in more technical education nowadays. While the people working under-the-table may be less likely to do so, don't assume all of them are menials. Also, don't forget that a working "yeshiva student" is double-dipping - he's not paying taxes and he's drawing a student's stipend.

Furthermore, we need to somehow break this concept that work should take second place to Torah study. What really annoys me about this is that there isn't really a religious requirement for this; if you look at most of the great rabbis of the past, they usually had professions (not necessarily white-collar ones, either); not to mention the Mishnaic injunction אם אין קמח, אין תורה (without flour, there is no Torah)

On the protests themselves, the funny thing is that the problem is really a combination between free-market capitalism and excessive socialism - on the one hand, the cost of living is high because of prices set by the free market. On the other hand, a lot of the time, the prices set are by government-sanctioned monopolies like the dairy market (there are laws barring anyone from importing certain types of cheeses and milks, for example), which are holdovers from when this country was hardcore socialist. So we have greedy private companies propped up the government to compete in anti-competitive ways. It's a clusterfuck that's coming home to roost.

There's also the problem that while income tax was reduced, indirect taxes have been greatly increased. The tax on fuel, for example, has been raised multiple times over the last year (which increases the cost of anything requiring transportation), and since you mention food, the tax in some kinds of food imports reaches 190% or so.

As far as dairy is concerned, the government-set prices aren't, AFAIK, the major problem; it's that there's a considerable markup on dairy products in the supermarket chains (witness how quickly the price of cottage cheese dropped after the consumer boycott which started these protests).

[Faqa]

Like I said, I don't like the idea; I'm just not sure getting them through the military is politically possible (or worth the trouble), so we may have to settle for the imperfect solution.

Oh, it's possible - and is almost certainly one of the most politically popular things the gov could do. The haredim's wedge vote wouldn't matter in such a case -EVERYBODY, even the Dati Leumi folks, would be united in their desires to make the haredim pay up their share.

Thing is, I view your solution as, no offense, worse than imperfect - because it doesn't really solve the issues of haredic isolation and secular resentment. It might net the government more tax money - but at the cost of giving yet more rights to the haredim, which could end in a deeply ugly fashion. Recall what happened with the אברך(Torah student) law back in September - there was enormous outcry over far, far less, over a goddamn stipend for students with a family.

I understand that you're looking for a solution that's more productive than "RAR, CRUSH, FORCE RAR!", but I don't see a plausible one.

You may be surprised. Quite a few haredim are investing in more technical education nowadays. While the people working under-the-table may be less likely to do so, don't assume all of them are menials. Also, don't forget that a working "yeshiva student" is double-dipping - he's not paying taxes and he's drawing a student's stipend.

Yes, he's double-dipping, but at least he has to go through the effort of hiding it from the govt, like a proper Israeli. Why institutionalize it?

Interesting about the technical education. Independent tradesmen for the most part, I assume?

Furthermore, we need to somehow break this concept that work should take second place to Torah study. What really annoys me about this is that there isn't really a religious requirement for this; if you look at most of the great rabbis of the past, they usually had professions (not necessarily white-collar ones, either); not to mention the Mishnaic injunction אם אין קמח, אין תורה (without flour, there is no Torah)

You know what a really, really, really good way to break this concept is?

Stop paying them for Torah study. The concept only takes hold because they can afford it. They can afford it thanks to the govt.

There's also the problem that while income tax was reduced, indirect taxes have been greatly increased. The tax on fuel, for example, has been raised multiple times over the last year (which increases the cost of anything requiring transportation), and since you mention food, the tax in some kinds of food imports reaches 190% or so.

As far as dairy is concerned, the government-set prices aren't, AFAIK, the major problem; it's that there's a considerable markup on dairy products in the supermarket chains (witness how quickly the price of cottage cheese dropped after the consumer boycott which started these protests).

No, but the markup is from, what, 3 major companies in the country? Those 3 companies are propped up by import laws forbidding competition or at least making it highly implausible. No doubt this made sense back when this place was The People's State Of MapaiIsrael, but now it's just a bizarre Frankenstein of free-market shit and socialism.


Really, the difference between the people here and the London rioters is the feeling that they still have a stake in this country - that there's something here worth demanding, some opportunity that they can have. And the government should should take London as a warning where this could go, left unchecked.

[eyl]

Like I said, I don't like the idea; I'm just not sure getting them through the military is politically possible (or worth the trouble), so we may have to settle for the imperfect solution.

Oh, it's possible - and is almost certainly one of the most politically popular things the gov could do. The haredim's wedge vote wouldn't matter in such a case -EVERYBODY, even the Dati Leumi folks, would be united in their desires to make the haredim pay up their share.

With the hardal group of the Dati Leumi members groing, I'm not sure how true that is.

You may be surprised. Quite a few haredim are investing in more technical education nowadays. While the people working under-the-table may be less likely to do so, don't assume all of them are menials. Also, don't forget that a working "yeshiva student" is double-dipping - he's not paying taxes and he's drawing a student's stipend.

Yes, he's double-dipping, but at least he has to go through the effort of hiding it from the govt, like a proper Israeli. Why institutionalize it?

The effort apparently isn't that great - the mechanisms are apparently pretty organized (for example, organizing people to pose as the worker with a fake ID if the government happens to make an inspection of the kolel where he's suppsoedly studying while he's actually on the job).

Interesting about the technical education. Independent tradesmen for the most part, I assume?

I understand that computer courses are pretty popular.

Furthermore, we need to somehow break this concept that work should take second place to Torah study. What really annoys me about this is that there isn't really a religious requirement for this; if you look at most of the great rabbis of the past, they usually had professions (not necessarily white-collar ones, either); not to mention the Mishnaic injunction אם אין קמח, אין תורה (without flour, there is no Torah)

You know what a really, really, really good way to break this concept is?

Stop paying them for Torah study. The concept only takes hold because they can afford it. They can afford it thanks to the govt.

I agree.

Really, the difference between the people here and the London rioters is the feeling that they still have a stake in this country - that there's something here worth demanding, some opportunity that they can have. And the government should should take London as a warning where this could go, left unchecked.

They started escalating a bit yesterday - there were tire burnings on the road near the Hulon tent camp, and I heard on the morning news that someone place a guillioutine facsamile in Rothschild St.

[bobalot]

Israel should really consider stopping stipends for children after two. Seriously, paying these dole-bludgers money to have more kids, who will most likely turn out to be dole bludgers as well is creating a social time-bomb.

[Colonel Olrik]

Ace, how the hell can a couple that gets $45000 a month claim not to have enough money and not be ridicularized? That kind of income allows you a jet set life in Munich. I can't wrap my head around it. Are they being taxed at 90% income? Is life in Israel five times more expensive than in Munich? Or is it a typo? The average German doesn't earn that much in a year.

[Faqa]

Israel should really consider stopping stipends for children after two. Seriously, paying these dole-bludgers money to have more kids, who will most likely turn out to be dole bludgers as well is creating a social time-bomb.

It's not quite that bad - the only community making a living that way around here are the haredim themselves, and there is large public pressure to get them to reform.

For the most part, the lower classes tend to be drafted, which means it's at least difficult for them to be a permanent underclass that has never held a job - and indeed, the IDF is a way out for a lot of them.

That's not to say the stipends shouldn't be stopped - for one thing, they mainly benefit the parts of society that society has little interest in growing - but not because they'll lead to a London situation.

The effort apparently isn't that great - the mechanisms are apparently pretty organized (for example, organizing people to pose as the worker with a fake ID if the government happens to make an inspection of the kolel where he's suppsoedly studying while he's actually on the job).

Why do I get the feeling we read the same article?

They at least still have to hide it. Give them the 'right' to work tax-free and you will have the devil of a time taking it away. And given how much we love to bitch about taxes in this country? People will be furious. And rightly so.

The haredim still feel like an isolated underclass - anyone who wants to stay in their society has very little choice other than 'evade draft, work off-the-books, make 30 kids'. That's not good.... but it's better than them having no incentive whatsoever to leave their society. Society has zero interest in them maintaining their present levels or growing, and any disincentive to stay there is good.

Although this specific problem is easy to fix - start proper surprise inspections of the yeshivot. Really, they couldn't do this if the government was trying hard at all to stop them.

[Ace Pace]

Olrik, my mistake in not pointing out this is in nis and not dollars. If i recall the exchange correctly, that's not much over ten thousand dollars a month.
Though yes, Israel has a high taxation percentage, and other than food, many goods here are marked up to silly levels, thanks to a wide array of taxs, import duties, and so forth.

[eyl]

Olrik, my mistake in not pointing out this is in nis and not dollars. If i recall the exchange correctly, that's not much over ten thousand dollars a month.
Though yes, Israel has a high taxation percentage, and other than food, many goods here are marked up to silly levels, thanks to a wide array of taxs, import duties, and so forth.

at the current exhange rate, that comes out to about 13,000 USD.

Even so, unless they have a truly massive mortgage or something, not making ends meet on 45,000 NIS (even if it's before taxes) seems excessive - my wife and I together make less than half that, and while we're hardly affluent, so far we finish the month "in the black" (true, not very far in,but still)

[Ace Pace]

I need to get home and find the article again, but basically, kids are a killer here.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

at the current exhange rate, that comes out to about 13,000 USD.

Did I read that right, thirteen grand a month? That's insane, I don't make that in a year.

[eyl]

I need to get home and find the article again, but basically, kids are a killer here.

It's possible, but it means they're going for the relatively expensive choices.

at the current exhange rate, that comes out to about 13,000 USD.

Did I read that right, thirteen grand a month? That's insane, I don't make that in a year.

1 USD is currently about 3.5 NIS

[Colonel Olrik]

at the current exhange rate, that comes out to about 13,000 USD.

Did I read that right, thirteen grand a month? That's insane, I don't make that in a year.

That's actually not so much for two well qualified, young professionals. There's a lot of couples earning that much or more in Germany who are not considered rich- doctors, engineers, architects, etc. But definitely high medium class