Deathwatch vs Space marines

[PainRack]

So, chris and others has already mentioned the problems with regards to the deathwatch. afterall, any of their missions could be replicated by a normal chapter. The only real difference would rest in the manner of secrecy and numbers. A chapter would probably be able to dedicate larger numbers from an company than a watch commander but be less likely to want to keep their deeds secret.

So, here"s the question. why would the formation of the deathwatch be a better choice than forming or relying on an existing chapter?

Could the answer be merely political? the deathwatch numbers arw probably larger than a codex chapter and rely on unorthodox tactics. given the immense powers an inquisitor has, the high lords may be leery of placing such a resource in their direct control. Especially one that has as their job scope assasination.

[Dwelf]

We have precedent from the heresy that when a chapter goes bad the entire chapter goes bad so this seems like a case of threat minimisation.

Creating the deathwatch minimises that problem in two ways.
By not having a single chapter indoctrinating all the troops we remove that single point of failure where a rogue chapter master creates an army of super soldiers that are not loyal to the Emperor.
Secondly by mixing members from many chapters together you provide a chance for those loyal to the emperor to detect any chapters that do not follow the doctrine closely enough.

[PainRack]

Hmmm.... so you're suggesting that the horrors routinely faced by the DeathWatch would be more likely to drive a chapter to go rogue?

[Dwelf]

Actually I had not factored that in at all.

At the very base we are talking about a larger than normal chapter that uses unorthadox methods. This alone would make it more dangerous than normal should it be subverted. In a galaxy full of paranoia and intruigue this would be sufficient reason to take measures to limit the possible danger it could pose. Even better if same measure lets you monitor the chapters that provide marines for the deathwatch.

This is a guess but it fits what I know about 40k

[Simon_Jester]

Frankly, I think the main reason for Deathwatch is that the Inquisition wants its own Marines.

The Marine chapters are among the most independent institutions in the Imperium- the quasifeudal nature of the system at its most feudal. For the Inquisition, one of the only really powerful organs of (sorta) central government in the system, that's very aggravating, especially since all too often they could really use a squad or platoon of supersoldiers to back them up when going against some eldritch horror. Astartes won't reliably follow inquisition orders, so it can make a lot of sense to separate out some of them and put them under Inquisition authority.

Part of that mission is handled by the Grey Knights, but they too are somewhat independent, very rare, and so specialized for daemon-hunting that their skills are wasted on any other mission.

[Feil]

The Deathwatch also fulfills some level of usefulness in that it takes Marines from chapters that don't necessarily see eye to eye and makes them work together at the most intimate level - the squad or kill-team. This probably sees (slight) dividends in the form of chapters working better together outside of the Deathwatch, reduced likelihood of internecine wars, and greater tactical flexibility within the chapters themselves.

There's also the factor of momentum - always important when dealing with 40k. Presumably the precursor of the Deathwatch got formed at some point when it really was the best possible solution at the time, for various circumstantial reasons that no longer exist, and millennia of legislative momentum and established tradition make keeping the Deathwatch running easy. Getting enough gene-seed, techmarines, compatible recruits, etc, to form a new chapter, or subsuming an existing chapter into the Inquisition, would both be extremely difficult.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Hmmm.... so you're suggesting that the horrors routinely faced by the DeathWatch would be more likely to drive a chapter to go rogue?

This sentence. Just... this sentence. What.

[Bedlam]

The Deathwatch also fulfills some level of usefulness in that it takes Marines from chapters that don't necessarily see eye to eye and makes them work together at the most intimate level - the squad or kill-team. This probably sees (slight) dividends in the form of chapters working better together outside of the Deathwatch, reduced likelihood of internecine wars, and greater tactical flexibility within the chapters themselves.

I think this is quite an interesting point, its not just what deathwatch gets from the marines its what the marines get from deathwatch. After serving in deathwatch marines get to bring new tactics and skills learnt from other chapers and the foes they have faced back to their home chapter. Normally most chapters are fairly insular so this allows adaption and preparation for foes that they might meet in the future. Thanks to deathwatch even chapters stationed on the far side of the galaxy from most of the hive fleets know a bit about tyranids so they can be prepaired if another fleet turns up from a different direction.

In addition I'd say deathwatch are somewhat more skilled than an average chapter, they only take in fairly veteran troops to start with although the difference probably isn't that great.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Deathwatch does not operate like other Marine chapters. It doesn't fight large battles. It doesn't take the field in over squad strength. It doesn't deploy battle barges or strike cruisers or armour companies or the like but it does deploy highly automated stealth ships with planet wrecking weaponry. The Deathwatch serves as body of elite strike teams for the Inquisition and is deployed and supported as such, not in the manner of an Astartes Chapter.

Could you have an overstrength, specialized chapter do that? Sure. That's what the Grey Knights do after all, but the founding of the Grey Knights is shrouded in mystery and done by the highest powers of the Imperium. The Deathwatch was founded by Space Marine chapters voluntarily deciding to contribute troops after a call to arms was issued and the institution was formed. Those who made the request couldn't have had a Chapter founded to serve them. They couldn't command Space Marines to serve them. They made an impassioned plea for the formation of an elite group to fight the greatest xenos horrors the galaxy had to offer and of their own accord Chapter Masters agreed to contribute troops.

[PainRack]

Frankly, I think the main reason for Deathwatch is that the Inquisition wants its own Marines.

The Marine chapters are among the most independent institutions in the Imperium- the quasifeudal nature of the system at its most feudal. For the Inquisition, one of the only really powerful organs of (sorta) central government in the system, that's very aggravating, especially since all too often they could really use a squad or platoon of supersoldiers to back them up when going against some eldritch horror. Astartes won't reliably follow inquisition orders, so it can make a lot of sense to separate out some of them and put them under Inquisition authority.

Part of that mission is handled by the Grey Knights, but they too are somewhat independent, very rare, and so specialized for daemon-hunting that their skills are wasted on any other mission.

Well, that's just it. If the Inquisition wants their own marines, why not just..... create a new chapter? Considering that they're supposedly creating dozens of Marine chapters in response to Kraken/Leviathan, this shouldn't be impossible, right?
It shouldn't be that impossible to create a Marine chapter that would be despatched at squad level to do what the Deathwatch is doing right now. So, why not?

There's also the factor of momentum - always important when dealing with 40k. Presumably the precursor of the Deathwatch got formed at some point when it really was the best possible solution at the time, for various circumstantial reasons that no longer exist, and millennia of legislative momentum and established tradition make keeping the Deathwatch running easy. Getting enough gene-seed, techmarines, compatible recruits, etc, to form a new chapter, or subsuming an existing chapter into the Inquisition, would both be extremely difficult.

Why would it have been more difficult to create a new chapter then as opposed to now? We don't have an exact date on the creation of the Deathwatch, but there has been numerous foundings in the Imperium history. Its a workable explaination for why the Deathwatch is structured the way they are, but I like to "believe" that there is a reason that it "works".

I think the ideas about dissemination of anti xeno tactics, knowledge, as well as even newer technology is an interesting one though.

[Zinegata]

The Inquisition doesn't really need to create its own special anti-Xenos chapters. Some existing Chapters already second themselves to the Inquisition fairly regularly. The Space Marine Chapter from the Siege of Vraks, for instance, was well-known for answering any call by the Inquisition for help or support. Sure, the Inquisition could make a chapter. But it has to be a really special Chapter - like the GKs who are really on a class of their own - and not just "Ultramarines with anti-Xenos weapons".

Moreover, Deathwatch to me seems to be a way for the Inquisition to gather a group of highly competent Marines who are capable of independent thinking, and let them get the job done without having to deal with their own Chapter's bullshit. Let's be blunt here - despite their elite status Space Marines can be rather dim and rigid sometimes ("Looking before leaping is not part of our M.O."). Deathwatch is meant to serve a different niche: Which is to have a small, flexible unit that can think on its feet and deal with new threats that the Imperium has never encountered before. It's the mix of an Away Team and a Green Berets special forces team, except with supermen and power armor.

[Alkaloid]

If the Inquisition wants their own marines, why not just..... create a new chapter?

Because the existing chapters really wouldn't like it

Chapter Masters aren't all that different to inquisitors in that no one but the emperor has authority over them. Imperial worlds/armies/inquisitors can request their assistance, and if they don't provide it they may have to answer for it later, to the High Lords, but they are under no obligation to assist even an inquisitor if he requests it and they have something more important to be doing, and they want it to stay that way.

Having a chapter under the authority of the inquisition would set a precedent that Inquisitors would use to try and bring more chapters under their authority, the other Ordos would start demanding their own chapters, and on more than one occasion there have been chapters would have either threatened to or outright seceded from the imperium when outside agencies tried to limit their autonomy. It would be an excellent way to sow the seeds for a civil war at best.

[Zinegata]

Chapters have served under the Inquisition before. For instance:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Scorpions

The Red Scorpions were essentially under Inquisition control for most of the Siege of Vraks. The Inquisition doesn't really need to make new Chapters, when many existing ones are ready and willing to fight for them.

Again, the Deathwatch is a fundamentally different war fighting unit compared to a Space Marine Chapter. A Space Marine Chapter is like a modern-day Ranger battalion - composed of elite troops, but their primary mission fundamentally remains conventional warfare. Deathwatch are the Green Berets and Delta force - small teams sent out alone to investigate, evaluate, and if necessary, eradicate. Getting them out of their home chapters (and their restrictions - i.e. a slavish adherence to the Codex) is an essential part of making the Deathwatch effective, because you need to be able to think on your feet when facing the unknown.

[Cykeisme]

There's also the issue of cost and infrastructure. What exactly does it cost the Inquisition for the services of Deathwatch pledges?

As has been stated, the chapters get additional skills, knowledge and experience for their already awesome xeno-killing veterans, as well as improving their reputation and solidifying bonds with other chapters. Besides, Deathwatch operations tend to be critical missions that assist in protecting the Emperor's citizens, and that's what everyone involved wants, after all.
Thus, the chapters continue to order age-old oaths and provide Marines to the Ordo Xenos, with no cost to the Inquisitors involved.

Why would the Ordo Xenos "pay" for the founding of a new chapter (in terms of political currency, infrastructure, time, criticism toward their increase in independent military power, etc) when they can get superhuman kill teams free of charge?

[Imperial Overlord]

The Inquisition does pay a fuckton to support the Deathwatch. They have literally hundreds of high tech, highly automated kill ships that are part of the Deathwatch and a large number of fortresses and watch stations. The Deathwatch also has access to the best equipment that the Imperium can provide, including the above mentioned kill ships and the exterminatus weapon arsenals for them. Its origins are of a voluntary donation of troops to assist the Inquisition, but it has since grown in a well equipped, galaxy spanning network.

[Cykeisme]

Ah, you're right. I borrowed a copy of Fantasy Flight's Deathwatch RPG book a while ago, and have been flipping through it.. I'm not sure how that escaped me entirely.
The Ordo Xenos does indeed seem to have an extensive support infrastructure for the Deathwatch kill teams.

I assume that the major sticking point, then, is the fact that the Astartes chapters are traditionally supposed to be separate and independent, and not under Inquisitorial control.

Perhaps the Grey Knights are the only exception since they've been around since the early days of the Imperium, their existence a secret and their origins shrouded in mystery..

[PainRack]

Chapters have served under the Inquisition before. For instance:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Scorpions

The Red Scorpions were essentially under Inquisition control for most of the Siege of Vraks. The Inquisition doesn't really need to make new Chapters, when many existing ones are ready and willing to fight for them.

Ok..
1. That's relatively misleading. The Red Scorpions sent their members to ASSIST the Inquisition, not place them under the direct control of the Inquisition. Granted, for the sake of unified command, it was the Ordos who had ultimate command of the campaign.
But to put it another way, the Inquisition had always had the power to directly command and requisition any resource, including space marine chapters. Vrakis however demonstrate that the Inquisition prefers to request the support of the Red Scorpions instead of directly ordering them, and then assert "overall" command afterwards.

2. Secondly, and here's the question. Why form the Deathwatch? The Crimson Fists, the Red Scorpions, Ultramarines, all of these chapters would assist any Inquisition request .The mission types done by the Deathwatch that can't be easily duplicated by other marine chapters can be achieved via Assasins. Or by throwing more resources at the issue.

Again, the Deathwatch is a fundamentally different war fighting unit compared to a Space Marine Chapter. A Space Marine Chapter is like a modern-day Ranger battalion - composed of elite troops, but their primary mission fundamentally remains conventional warfare. Deathwatch are the Green Berets and Delta force - small teams sent out alone to investigate, evaluate, and if necessary, eradicate. Getting them out of their home chapters (and their restrictions - i.e. a slavish adherence to the Codex) is an essential part of making the Deathwatch effective, because you need to be able to think on your feet when facing the unknown.

Except that in this case, the Space Marines can and DO the missions that's the Death watch do. Watch over entire region of space? There are 11 chapters assigned to watch over the Eye of Terror. Investigate new worlds? Marines support explorater fleets or launc their own exploration/crusades. Kill an alien sympthasier governor? The Marine chapters do the same thing against enemy generals and leaders.

The sole difference rest in the fact that Inquisition missions are "secret" that other Marine Chapters might not be able to consider as their mission goals and Marine chapters may not be conviently assigned to support the Ordo Xenos.

For example, let's compare the use of Death Watch marines in Scourge the Heretic. Boarding a space station, securing a hab from pyskers, these are the kinda missions that are done by every other marines.... ever. The only difference is that Inquisiters decide how to unleash them, to protect secrecy and etc.

TBH, the Deathwatch inability to project larger numbers suggest the nature of the Ordos resources. They are comitted throughout the galaxy and against too many threats, something only the Gray Knights do and like the Deathwatch, the Knights also typically deploy in squad level unless a more major daemon appears.

[PainRack]

Ah, you're right. I borrowed a copy of Fantasy Flight's Deathwatch RPG book a while ago, and have been flipping through it.. I'm not sure how that escaped me entirely.
The Ordo Xenos does indeed seem to have an extensive support infrastructure for the Deathwatch kill teams.

I assume that the major sticking point, then, is the fact that the Astartes chapters are traditionally supposed to be separate and independent, and not under Inquisitorial control.

Perhaps the Grey Knights are the only exception since they've been around since the early days of the Imperium, their existence a secret and their origins shrouded in mystery..

So, essentially, we can summarise it as politics vis a vis control of a Marine chapter and the fact that the Deathwatch actually does spread around skills, knowledge and technology on how to fight xenos? Thus probably improving their home chapter abilities against the xeno threat?

One should note that the Deathwatch refuse to recruit from penitant chapters who have been sent on Crusades... politics again I presume. The Marines refuse to taint their own "honour". That or they're worried about the effects recruiting such dishonourable members would have on their team dynamics.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's not that the Inquisition doesn't have enough resources to get an Astartes Chapter founded (several chapters clearly have Inquisition influence in their formation), it's that the Deathwatch was founded differently. The Inquisition isn't a monolithic block. The Deathwatch was founded by a conclave of Inquisitor Lords, most of whom were Ordo Xenos, meeting to address how certain xenos threats should be combated and then petitioning Astartes Chapter Masters for aid. These guys weren't the leaders of the Inquisition, Masters of the Ordo, or representatives to the High Lords of Terra. They didn't have the power to get their own Astartes Chapter formed, but their were given aid by the Chapter Masters they had approached (after the Chapter Masters had discussed the matter amongst themselves). That got the ball rolling and it grew from there.

As for Assassins, they're much harder to get than Deatwatch Marines and they are frankly not well suited to most tasks. They're great for killing rogue planetary governors, not boarding a Space Hulk and retrieving live xenos specimens for bioweapon research. Line Astartes can do Deathwatch jobs, but they don't have the advantages of Deathwatch specialty equipment and training. The Crimson Fists are great at killing Orc Hordes, but they aren't well equipped to infiltrate a small team into enemy territory, capture xenotech, and escape. If you're going to fight a conventional battle, the best use of the Deathwatch is as advisers. You want a Tau Ethereal killed? An Assassin is a great choice. . . if you can get your hands on one. It requires authorization from the High Lords of Terra. The Deathwatch don't and if they're involved capture becomes a realistic option as well.

[Fiji_Fury]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it also a matter of allowing the multitude of chapters to act as an elite training ground? Just as chapters pick only the finest potential warriors for training and possible augmentation as an Astartes, doesn't the Deathwatch take only experienced, elite battle-brothers from many chapters? Rather than building a whole chapter (which IO has already mentioned could, but hasn't/wouldn't happen given the Deathwatch's history and point of origin), the current system provides the benefit for the Inquisition of allowing other organizations to bear the costs of training and coordinating the super-soldiers, then taking from among the very best of the very best. We could surmise that the Deathwatch ends up with some of the very best Space Marines as a consequence.

[Broken]

I assume that the major sticking point, then, is the fact that the Astartes chapters are traditionally supposed to be separate and independent, and not under Inquisitorial control.

Perhaps the Grey Knights are the only exception since they've been around since the early days of the Imperium, their existence a secret and their origins shrouded in mystery..

However, even the Grey Knights think of themselves as independent. To quote Ben Counter's Grey Knights novel where a Grey Knight Justicar states

Some of the Ordo Malleus think the Grey Knights were created to serve them, but we are a sovereign and independent Chapter, as much as the Space Wolves or Dark Angels or anyone else.

Now that is a relatively low-ranked member of the Grey Knights and the perception could be different at the higher levels, but that would surprise me. The Grey Knights have a highly specialized purpose and view the Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition as the best method of achieving their goals, but they are not stormtroopers to merely be told to go and they go.

As for the Deathwatch, it is possible the Inquisition could throw enough of its weight around that the Ordo Xenos could get a Grey Knight style "super-Chapter" dedicated to aiding them. But the cost in political capital and getting the other factions in the Imperial government to agree could be judged as too great to justify such an undertaking when the current system has been plodding along well enough for centuries. Taken with the view of spreading the tactics and knowledge gained by Deathwatch personal to their home Chapters, I would say the High Lords would think the current system works "well enough" and go back to trying to put out one of the other fires raging in the galaxy that week.

[Black Admiral]

Moreover, Deathwatch to me seems to be a way for the Inquisition to gather a group of highly competent Marines who are capable of independent thinking, and let them get the job done without having to deal with their own Chapter's bullshit. Let's be blunt here - despite their elite status Space Marines can be rather dim and rigid sometimes ("Looking before leaping is not part of our M.O.").

You're right, but not for the reasons you assert. The fact is that Space Marine Chapters, as a general rule, tend to ask questions that a hypothetical Ordo Xenos Inquisitor probably doesn't want to answer (questions like "Why do you want our help?", "What have you been doing in this place you're asking us to check out?" and "Weren't there supposed to be more civilians here?"), and are entirely willing to off (or cause to die through inaction, as Commander Culln of the Red Scorpions does in IA4) Inquisitors who try and mess them around. Deathwatch teams are a lot less likely to start asking inconvenient questions, and as far as I'm aware have less of a rep for murdering Inquisitors.

[PainRack]

However, even the Grey Knights think of themselves as independent. To quote Ben Counter's Grey Knights novel where a Grey Knight Justicar states

Some of the Ordo Malleus think the Grey Knights were created to serve them, but we are a sovereign and independent Chapter, as much as the Space Wolves or Dark Angels or anyone else.

Now that is a relatively low-ranked member of the Grey Knights and the perception could be different at the higher levels, but that would surprise me. The Grey Knights have a highly specialized purpose and view the Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition as the best method of achieving their goals, but they are not stormtroopers to merely be told to go and they go.

Nope.

Where the other Space Marine Chapters would be autonomous, the Grey Knights were fully embedded in the Inquisition, and would serve as the Chamber militant of that most secret of societies.

Grey Knights Codex.
Perhaps, what they're referring to is the deployment of the Grey Knights. Large deployments appear to be restricted to control by the Grand Masters.

It's not that the Inquisition doesn't have enough resources to get an Astartes Chapter founded (several chapters clearly have Inquisition influence in their formation), it's that the Deathwatch was founded differently. The Inquisition isn't a monolithic block. The Deathwatch was founded by a conclave of Inquisitor Lords, most of whom were Ordo Xenos, meeting to address how certain xenos threats should be combated and then petitioning Astartes Chapter Masters for aid. These guys weren't the leaders of the Inquisition, Masters of the Ordo, or representatives to the High Lords of Terra. They didn't have the power to get their own Astartes Chapter formed, but their were given aid by the Chapter Masters they had approached (after the Chapter Masters had discussed the matter amongst themselves). That got the ball rolling and it grew from there.

I would hesitate to say that, given that Inquisitor Lords have the rank to order/influence foundings to combat the Tyrannid threat. Chapter masters agreeing to assist them would certainly have subsidised the political cost of forming the Deathwatch, but let's not deceive ourselves. Creating the Deathwatch in and as of itself would had required a political battle that the Conclave did win.

As for Assassins, they're much harder to get than Deatwatch Marines and they are frankly not well suited to most tasks. They're great for killing rogue planetary governors, not boarding a Space Hulk and retrieving live xenos specimens for bioweapon research. Line Astartes can do Deathwatch jobs, but they don't have the advantages of Deathwatch specialty equipment and training. The Crimson Fists are great at killing Orc Hordes, but they aren't well equipped to infiltrate a small team into enemy territory, capture xenotech, and escape. If you're going to fight a conventional battle, the best use of the Deathwatch is as advisers. You want a Tau Ethereal killed? An Assassin is a great choice. . . if you can get your hands on one. It requires authorization from the High Lords of Terra. The Deathwatch don't and if they're involved capture becomes a realistic option as well.

That's bollocks. Dawn of War II novelisation,a Blood Raven squad infiltrate a world being consumed by the Tyranids to capture/secure relics and escaped. Killing Ethereal? Again, Space Marines do that too. One of their tactics is to assasinate enemy commanders/leaders, and their strategy to take over a planet involves decapcitation strikes against C&C. If nothing else, that's exactly WHAT their scouts do.

Seriously. The ONLY time you don't need a normal space marine to do Deathwatch stuff is when you need an Assasin.

As for xenos training, seriously, what SPECIAL training do they have? Mano el Mano fights where a Space Marine must fight and kill a captured xeno specimen, sometimes without armour or with their bare fists. Tactical training in which a small kill team in inserted in various environments to kill xenos. Anti xeno tactics. There's literally nothing in there that normal space marine chapters SHOULDN"T be doing.

As for specialised equipment, yeah, that's a valid argument. One that's sidestepped if the Inquisition simply created their own Marine chapter.

I'm sorry, but arguing that the Deathwatch does stuff better or that no one else can do is sheer nonsense. The only thing they do better is because they're equipped with better equipment.
Politics or spreading of experience is probably the best explaination for the continued existence of the Deathwatch.

[Purple]

How about this explanation. The deathwatch is an extremely expensive military unit. It consists of huge numbers of super elite (even for their standards) super soldiers who are supplied with the best and most expensive equipment, no costs spared. Both of these factors the men and the equipment alone carry a huge cost. As such, it makes sense to outsource the production and training of said super soldiers to someone else so that you can have more resources to devote to acquiring equipment for them.

[Gunhead]

The one of the most important aspects of any rapid deployment force is that it's available to who ever has control over and thus can rapidly deploy it when the need arises. Inquisition has control over the deathwatch and thus knows how and where it is deployed and how much surplus force they have at their disposal against future threats. They will ask other chapters for help, but it's not sensible to assume they do so before they exhausted their own force or they are unavailable for some other reason. With the comm lag these guys have, people really have to make that extra effort to make sure the people who need to know where you are have that information and other SM chapters are not required to keep the inquisition informed about their comings and goings, not to mention in what readiness the said chapter is and other details that heavily influence one's ability to take action.

-Gunhead