Rioting in London?

[Keevan_Colton]

It's rather amusing that you seem to be equating these sales with the people rioting, rather than the people who are at home and afraid and wanting something in-case for some reason a mob smashes down their door. I've spoke to several people in the greater London area that have been preparing things for just that eventuality....

[Zixinus]

How fast do the bats actually get there?

Because I just got the image of an Amazon delivery man walking among the craziness and asking "excuse me, you there, yes you who's torching that car, did you order 3 aluminium bats? They're here, please sign".

[Dartzap]

Grauniad

Some interesting points in there: Batons rounds are go and the 3rd Rifles are on notice to deploy within 12 hours when ordered. Water cannons enroute as well.

[HMS Sophia]

This is insane. I'd really rather the rifles didn't make it onto the streets. They're light infantry, not policeman.
The water cannons and rubber bullets are good though...

[Serafina]

This is insane. I'd really rather the rifles didn't make it onto the streets. They're light infantry, not policeman.
The water cannons and rubber bullets are good though...

Well of course they are not police. But that's what deploying the military in such situations will result in - which is why you should not do it.

[Ryan Thunder]

This is insane. I'd really rather the rifles didn't make it onto the streets. They're light infantry, not policeman.
The water cannons and rubber bullets are good though...

Well of course they are not police. But that's what deploying the military in such situations will result in - which is why you should not do it.

And that, boys and girls, is why you should not riot.

[Zaune]

If they deploy the army, we're going to upgrade from riots to all out civil fucking war. Half the gun crime hotspots in the country are kicking off, remember? Probably the only reason the police haven't been taking live fire already is because only the wealthier gangers can afford better than a cheap piece of shit derringer kludged together from a starter pistol, and the status quo suited them just fine. But how long's that going to last once some squaddie flips his shit and hoses down a crowd with his rifle?

[Dartzap]

Talking of gun crime hotspots, Nottingham is getting into full swing now as well.

As Z has said: Once a bullet, be it rubber or metal kills or maims someone, this situation is going to go even further to hell in a handbasket.

[weemadando]

Lets hope that the natural cowardice of the criminal element shines through when police and military with live ammo arrive.

It worked in the Western Sydney riots after the police got sick of it and started rolling the equivalent of SWAT teams through the areas where the riots had been, suddenly they were very reluctant to leave the.safety of their public housing to throw molotovs at the police again.

[UnderAGreySky]

London is relatively quiet today, but Birmingham, Leicester, Nottingham, Manchester are in trouble.

[Uraniun235]

Does insurance cover losses incurred by rioting?

[Broomstick]

The National Guard was called out by Governor Romney (not the Massachusetts Mitt Romney, this guy was his father) for the 1967 Detroit riots in the US, and President Johnson sent in some army troops. The riots were over within 48 hours, but it did increase the violence and there were deaths both among the rioters and the troops before it was over.

It also is what fucked over Detroit. Seeing goddamned tanks and machine guns (that's not exaggeration - both were deployed against civilians) rolling through the streets of an American city, even to quell a major multi-day riot, convinced everybody Detroit was the last place they'd ever want to be. It wasn't just white flight, it was everybody flight out of the city after that. I don't think London would empty out, but deploying the military against the citizens probably would have severe long-term negative effects.

So, yeah, the military can stop a riot, but you have to ask yourself "at what cost?" It WILL increase the violence in the short-term, and soldiers are not police.

And for god's sake, I hope the British don't make the same mistake the US did after the riots of the 60's - there are still parts of major cities that were never rebuilt, where the burned out buildings still stand in ruins, or have collapsed into vacant lots, still wrecked after more than 40 years. With London being so central that's less likely to happen, but you need to rebuild, yes, even the places where the culprits live. It's not about whether or not they "deserve" to have those places rebuilt, but for the long-term health of the city.

[Broomstick]

Does insurance cover losses incurred by rioting?

I imagine that would depend on how the policy is written.

I read something today that the London police could be liable under some circumstances for damages, but I'm hardly an authority on British law.

[salm]

This is insane. I'd really rather the rifles didn't make it onto the streets. They're light infantry, not policeman.
The water cannons and rubber bullets are good though...

Well of course they are not police. But that's what deploying the military in such situations will result in - which is why you should not do it.

And that, boys and girls, is why you should not riot.

Nonsense. There are plenty of reasons why you shouldn´t riot. The government threatening to use excessive force is not one of them.

[Broomstick]

No, I'd say "potential government use of excessive force" actually IS a good reason not riot - among many other reasons not to riot.

[salm]

No, I'd say "potential government use of excessive force" actually IS a good reason not riot - among many other reasons not to riot.

From a practical point of view yes. From a moral point of view not so much.

If you say something like RTs post above it looks like you think that the government is justified in using excessive military force.

[Big Orange]

The US Army going into Detroit with tanks was pretty much the US Government demonstrating that it was invading part of its own country that it couldn't legitimately control and you don't want that kind of PR blunder to be repeated in the UK's capital city that's supposed to host the Olympics. Open military force is escalation and makes us look hypocritical (look at the snarky comments made by iffy countries in Africa and the Middle East).

[Broomstick]

I think under some, very limited, circumstances calling out the military could be justified.

I don't feel I know enough about the current situation in London to make such a judgement call.

I do think the military would be preferable to arson getting out of control and substantial parts of a city lost to firestorm or conflagration, as one example of an extreme situation. As I said, I don't know if London (or other places in Britain) is in danger of reaching that point, that's something for the British to determine.

Of course, as an American, if such a riot broke out in my neighborhood I wouldn't be ordering a baseball bat from Amazon. I have to keep in mind that there is a considerable cultural difference between Chicago and London, and considerable difference in what armament the local populace has at hand. That can also make a difference in government response, and what is and isn't appropriate.

[Starglider]

Some ad-hoc organised self-defence has started to pop up;

In Enfield, north London, a group of around 70 local men kept watch in the area.

They told Sky News their aim was to apprehend people who were carrying out looting and assaults until the police could take them away.

Enfield was badly affected by the riots on Monday night, with a Sony warehouse set on fire.

One of those involved in the patrol, Nick Davidson, said a lack of action from police prompted their decision.

He said: "We've had enough of the police just standing there... while people are looting and ruining the whole area.

"Everybody here pays tax and we've all had enough of it. We're sickened by the police doing absolutely nothing.

"They're not policing our streets, we have to police them."

Another participant told Sky: "The real community of Enfield have had to come together and stick up for ourselves, the businesses, the places we come and shop, the places that we live and prevent any more damage happening."

In Southall, west London, hundreds of Sikh men stood guard outside their temple and patrolled the streets.

Southall residents

Residents standing guard in Southall

They were located just a few miles from Ealing which saw some of the worst of the riots on Monday night.

The temple's president Himmat Singh Sohi said they wanted to protect their community.

General secretary Dr Parvinder Singh Garcha told Sky: "We want to show them (the rioters) we are here together.

"We want for them to discuss if they have a problem, we will address that with them but certainly we will not stand for any kind of wanton violence."

Hopefully this round of violence will subside quickly, before vigilante groups become relevant. As I've said though, if the economic situation keeps declining and we see recurring and nastier riots, these sort of groups will become a major contributor to maintaining order.

[Big Orange]

Anyway after being caught way off balance on Monday and the authorities getting their shit together properly in the last 24 hours, the crowds have died down somewhat...

[salm]

I think under some, very limited, circumstances calling out the military could be justified.

It´s possible to think up ultra extreme scenarios which warrant exceptions for pretty much any rule. Just like they have plans in case Canada invades the US...

[Zaune]

Note that we also have different laws and cultural attitudes about the use of the armed forces in controlling domestic civil unrest, not least because we spent the thick end of half a century fighting a vicious little insurgency within our own borders. At one point the armed forces were being put on standby because Authorised Firearms Officers were turning in their warrants en masse in protest against one of their number getting hauled up before the beak after a questionable shooting not entirely unlike what started this, so calling them in to quell actual rioting won't be anywhere close to such a big deal as it would be in the US.

And if there's one consolation, it's that the army also have enough operational experience with this sort of clusterfuck that their mere presence won't make the security situation actively worse.

[Teebs]

And for god's sake, I hope the British don't make the same mistake the US did after the riots of the 60's - there are still parts of major cities that were never rebuilt, where the burned out buildings still stand in ruins, or have collapsed into vacant lots, still wrecked after more than 40 years. With London being so central that's less likely to happen, but you need to rebuild, yes, even the places where the culprits live. It's not about whether or not they "deserve" to have those places rebuilt, but for the long-term health of the city.

It's very unlikely that they wouldn't be. Property prices are so ridiculous in London that every bit of land is valuable.

I read something today that the London police could be liable under some circumstances for damages, but I'm hardly an authority on British law.

This isn't my area of speciality, so take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt, but as I understand it the police are liable for the damage caused in 'official' riots. I don't think it's all that relevant though because the authorities just don't give the riots official status. Apparently the poll tax riots did not result in any government compensation because of this.

[Broomstick]

I think under some, very limited, circumstances calling out the military could be justified.

It´s possible to think up ultra extreme scenarios which warrant exceptions for pretty much any rule. Just like they have plans in case Canada invades the US...

Now, be fair - that actually HAS happened, although it was a long time ago. All is forgiven (for now...)

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Talking of gun crime hotspots, Nottingham is getting into full swing now as well.

As Z has said: Once a bullet, be it rubber or metal kills or maims someone, this situation is going to go even further to hell in a handbasket.

It was some guy getting shot by the cops that set this whole thing off, turns out he didn't even shoot at them in the first place, which begs the question, what the fuck happened?