9th Circuit Appeals court upholds Pledge ruling

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That distinction does not change the fact that your logic is fallacious; appeals to popular opinion cannot justify anything.

The United States of America is indeed a Federal Republic. However, its core is a citizenry, free and equal. The interests of these citizens, expressed through their representatives in an electoral process, mandates national policy. Though the Republican form of government serves to protect minority interests (such as atheistic ones), it cannot reasonably nor realistically promote them. That's the nature of Representative Democracy, nothing more.

[Darth Wong]

I was thinking more along the lines of showing how popular uprisings have occurred by armed citizenry and actually forced the government to take or rescind actions where they would have been able to ignore mobs of people armed with rocks, knives, and Molotov cocktails.

Would actions in which armed forces mustered from the citizenry have either defeated the federal (or state antebellum ACW) government forces opposing them, or forced them to back down by being able to concentrate a greater force, be acceptable? In both cases the armed nature of the opposition would clearly be a factor in the outcome.

Sure, as long as we're not using a point in history where the government's military is nascent, small, and weak, which would obviously not be applicable to the present day.

[Durandal]

A Law is part of the State Institutes that actually in that case functioned in an oppressive fashion. This is part of the national symbology and does not perform the same function whatsoever.

That distinction does not change the fact that your logic is fallacious; appeals to popular opinion cannot justify anything.

Foundation of democracy however.

Not when it tramples others' rights. If the majority of people wanted blacks to be lynched, would that mean that it's justified?

[Darth Wong]

That distinction does not change the fact that your logic is fallacious; appeals to popular opinion cannot justify anything.

The United States of America is indeed a Federal Republic. However, its core is a citizenry, free and equal. The interests of these citizens, expressed through their representatives in an electoral process, mandates national policy. Though the Republican form of government serves to protect minority interests (such as atheistic ones), it cannot reasonably nor realistically promote them. That's the nature of Representative Democracy, nothing more.

Note highlighted part. If "free and equal" is not being respected by the government, then that's a problem regardless of whether the majority is happy with it. See civil-rights in the 1960's.

[HemlockGrey]

Um, Duchess, I think maintaining civilian control of the military is much moe important than the 2nd Amendment. A man with a Beretta is not going to stand up to a trained soldier, but as long as the military is not attempting any coups there is no problem.

[SirNitram]

Gotta love the increasingly ridiculous arguments thrown around here.

The USA is really a Christian nation!
Under God means any deity.
The religious clauses don't prevent the Government from respecting all religions.
It's not worth making people sit up and understand the problem.
It's unpatriotic to say anything but this.

Glad I'm not a citizen of the US. Sounds like even among the educated, there is alot of nonsense in the heads.

[Sea Skimmer]

That distinction does not change the fact that your logic is fallacious; appeals to popular opinion cannot justify anything.

Foundation of democracy however.

Not when it tramples others' rights. If the majority of people wanted blacks to be lynched, would that mean that it's justified?

No, but what is considered a right is an issue in its self. And once more, the people decide what they value and what they don't. People valued civil rights enough that laws where passed to protect them. On the other hand equality of taxation is not valued, which is why rich are more heavily taxed.

[Darth Wong]

No, but what is considered a right is an issue in its self. And once more, the people decide what they value and what they don't. People valued civil rights enough that laws where passed to protect them.

An awful lot of people opposed that vehemently, particularly in the South, where I believe the majority opinion was against it. However, the constitutional principle of equality made it necessary.

[Sea Skimmer]

Um, Duchess, I think maintaining civilian control of the military is much moe important than the 2nd Amendment. A man with a Beretta is not going to stand up to a trained soldier, but as long as the military is not attempting any coups there is no problem.

And yet the Soviets where unable to hold Afghanistan and vast areas of Yugoslavia become impossible to German forces. Of course the civilian government can be in complete control of the military, but of the citizenry are not in control of the government you have the real problume.

[Durandal]

So if the people didn't value civil rights in the 1960's, segregation would have been perfectly acceptable?

[Sea Skimmer]

No, but what is considered a right is an issue in its self. And once more, the people decide what they value and what they don't. People valued civil rights enough that laws where passed to protect them.

An awful lot of people opposed that vehemently, particularly in the South, where I believe the majority opinion was against it. However, the constitutional principle of equality made it necessary.

The South also had and has a small minority of the nations population.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Yes I am fully aware of what this country stands for and that millions of people come here every year. That doesnt change the fact that power hungry politicians are curtailing our civil righs My right to privacy...gone. My right t freedom against searches and siezures...gone. Hell I can even be labled an enemy combatant and denied my right to due process. All I have to do is be a member of an organization that the govern ment doesnt find politically convienient.

I willstay for the next ten years, see how things go. if my some twist, the patriot acts, and total information awareness go away, my patriotism will return. But I refuse to stand by a country that spits in my face.

Alyrium, I think you're being really hysterical about this. I've got concerns about the Patroit Act but jeez, this country is still one of the best places on Earth. Good luck trying to find better.

I think he's going a little far, as well, but keep in mind that he's gay, as well. He probably sees a lot more shit than your average atheist.

you have no idea

[HemlockGrey]

In relation to one of your earlier complaints, Alyrium, IIRC the Total Information Awareness Office was denied funding

[Stormbringer]

[
Alyrium, I think you're being really hysterical about this. I've got concerns about the Patroit Act but jeez, this country is still one of the best places on Earth. Good luck trying to find better.

I think he's going a little far, as well, but keep in mind that he's gay, as well. He probably sees a lot more shit than your average atheist.

you have no idea

I don't doubt you have. But this is hardly "kick down the door and haul you off to the gulag" territory here. The US still free and if things aren't perfect the due process of law still works.

[Alyrium Denryle]

In relation to one of your earlier complaints, Alyrium, IIRC the Total Information Awareness Office was denied funding

That I did not know. But then again, the fact that that logo was ever even thought of is an affront to democracy

[HemlockGrey]

Hardly. I think it's a tribute to the fact that the system can work.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I think he's going a little far, as well, but keep in mind that he's gay, as well. He probably sees a lot more shit than your average atheist.

you have no idea

I don't doubt you have. But this is hardly "kick down the door and haul you off to the gulag" territory here. The US still free and if things aren't perfect the due process of law still works.

Oh I am sure that it is not...yet. My biggest problem is that our civil liberties should not have been infringed apon in the first place, and that people dont care. I look at the patriot acts, and i see freedoms this country was founded on, pissed away.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Hardly. I think it's a tribute to the fact that the system can work.

Oh the system works, it is simply the people running the system that dont

[HemlockGrey]

But, obviously they do, on occasion, otherwise the IAO would be peering over our shoulder right now.

[Stormbringer]

Oh I am sure that it is not...yet. My biggest problem is that our civil liberties should not have been infringed apon in the first place, and that people dont care. I look at the patriot acts, and i see freedoms this country was founded on, pissed away.

For one thing, it hasn't meant that much of difference all in all. Our freedoms have hardly been curtailed and so far no one but fundy trash terrorists have suffered. Frankly, I am a little worried but the thing is, there is nothing like a police state here.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Oh I am sure that it is not...yet. My biggest problem is that our civil liberties should not have been infringed apon in the first place, and that people dont care. I look at the patriot acts, and i see freedoms this country was founded on, pissed away.

For one thing, it hasn't meant that much of difference all in all. Our freedoms have hardly been curtailed and so far no one but fundy trash terrorists have suffered. Frankly, I am a little worried but the thing is, there is nothing like a police state here.

I do believe that the fact that such bills and groups existed was a violation of the Constitution, as they allowed amendments to be violated, even if the powers granted weren't used.

Still, I do believe it's a bit overblown, as I don't see tens of thousands of people near me being hauled off to prison camps.

[Alyrium Denryle]

oh it isnt a police state. But you should also look into the future a bit. The longer things like the patriot acts are allowed to exist, the more acceptable it will become. Tha acceptance will pave the way for more...terrible things.

[Stormbringer]

oh it isnt a police state. But you should also look into the future a bit. The longer things like the patriot acts are allowed to exist, the more acceptable it will become. Tha acceptance will pave the way for more...terrible things.

Are are aware that the Patriot Act is basically no different that a lot of WW2 acts that allowed the same thing? That the key to this is the "clear and present danger" clause. I doubt the Patriot Act (even if it stands) will turn into a fixture of the American political system. And frankly, I'm less worried about the Patriot Act than I am about Dubya's economic policies.

[Alyrium Denryle]

oh it isnt a police state. But you should also look into the future a bit. The longer things like the patriot acts are allowed to exist, the more acceptable it will become. Tha acceptance will pave the way for more...terrible things.

Are are aware that the Patriot Act is basically no different that a lot of WW2 acts that allowed the same thing? That the key to this is the "clear and present danger" clause. I doubt the Patriot Act (even if it stands) will turn into a fixture of the American political system. And frankly, I'm less worried about the Patriot Act than I am about Dubya's economic policies.

*shudder* bushes economic policies*shudder*

[Durandal]

The thing that bugs me most about the PATRIOT Act is that it targets US citizens. The people who flew the planes into the Twin Towers ... weren't US citizens.