Rioting in London?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Well it's half past ten, wonder which cities will flare up this time. Last night in Birmingham 3 Asian guys got run over trying to defend their business

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I've been following the riots with great interest. I love the double standards of the British Police. When I lived in Belfast I have seen dozens of occasions when water cannon and plastic batton rounds were deployed for a few dozen people before the shit hit the fan, but apparently when worse riots happen on the main land there is agonising deliberation and wringing of hand before any decision can be made

I suspect it's a product of the institutional experience of the force in question. For the Met a riot is serious stuff. For the RUC it was less newsworthy than rain, so they probably developed an attitude of "oh, a riot, hose them down so we can get home on time".

It's all well and good DC saying the rioters will face the full force of the law, but right now that doesn't look like enough- it's got to the point where some groups of individuals are now arming themselves to protect buildings and the police are having to actually disarm them than do what they're supposed to. It seems to me that unless they lock up all the troublemakers and soon, else this is going to keep happening; and what do you know, yet more people to stuff into our overcrowded prison system

[TC27]

Things seem calm tonight - I think the weather and saturation police coverage has done the trick tonight.

Where do we as a nation go from here?

[Eternal_Freedom]

My town, High Wycombe, hasn't had any problems at all and yet the town centre was totally dead earlier this evening (around . Myself and my friends decided to go for a late dinner athe pub and found all of 1 other person there. The only other people we saw in the town centre were a pair of coppers discreetly following us (after all, we were a bunch of 6 youths, two of which wore leather jackets and had just left the pub, clearly we are worthy of police attention [/sarcasm]).

[Zaune]

The shitstorm you could get in response to a firestorm if some of those arson fires really get out of control would make people ignore a few dead rioters. There have been reports of firefighters being attacked - that is a very troubling sign.

London does not need another Great Fire. It's not just a matter of keeping trainers and iPods from being stolen, there really is a larger public safety issue lurking in the background.

I know. I just have a terrible feeling that when a rioter finally gets killed, the situation will degenerate to the point where the army are forced to go in with IFVs and helicopter gunship support to restore order.

[Broomstick]

Although that is possible, it is probably not the most likely outcome.

[TC27]

The shitstorm you could get in response to a firestorm if some of those arson fires really get out of control would make people ignore a few dead rioters. There have been reports of firefighters being attacked - that is a very troubling sign.

London does not need another Great Fire. It's not just a matter of keeping trainers and iPods from being stolen, there really is a larger public safety issue lurking in the background.

I know. I just have a terrible feeling that when a rioter finally gets killed, the situation will degenerate to the point where the army are forced to go in with IFVs and helicopter gunship support to restore order.

I think thats extremely unlikely.

[salm]

<snip>

That was maybe not the best response I could have given; allow me to try again.

I don't advocate deploying the military over nothing, but if the police can't contain the situation on their own then the government has to escalate. I realize that its not as simple as 'lol let's riot', but we need to have order before the underlying issues can be examined and addressed, in my opinion. That is why I do not necessarily consider the introduction of military troops as excessive. I would be happy to hear why you disagree, salm.

Why do you think that the military is qualified to bring the situation under control? Other posters have said it before and I´ll repeat it: The military is not trained to bring civilian conflicts like riots under control. The military is the wrong tool for this task.
The point at which it would be warranted to bring in the military is so far away that it´s not even worth discussing.

[weemadando]

The seemingly targeted and definitely intentional running down if the three in Birmingham has the unpleasant potential of adding a racial motivation to riot/vigilante actions.

That's where this has the potential to go really bad.

[Captain Seafort]

Why do you think that the military is qualified to bring the situation under control? Other posters have said it before and I´ll repeat it: The military is not trained to bring civilian conflicts like riots under control. The military is the wrong tool for this task.

And as I've already said, you're wrong on that point. The British army has been doing riot control since the late 1960s. They know what they're doing.

The point at which it would be warranted to bring in the military is so far away that it´s not even worth discussing.

On the contrary. I think if the trouble keeps spreading military assistance will be needed, not because the police are incapable of controlling a given incident, but because they haven't got the manpower to deal with so many serious incidents simultaneously.

The seemingly targeted and definitely intentional running down if the three in Birmingham has the unpleasant potential of adding a racial motivation to riot/vigilante actions.

I've heard nothing to suggest that there was any racial motivation to that incident. Indeed, if there's a bright side to this, it's the fact that I haven't read or heard of a single incident since the trouble started that race is at all relevant, and plenty to indicate that both the thugs responsible and the groups gathering the next morning to help clear up the mess have been as multiracial as the local areas.

[weemadando]

News reports have been saying they they were part of z large group which had just left prayer at a mosque, the car went past with ghd occupants abusing ghd group then came back, mounted the pavement and hit the three who were killed.

That's sounding pretty racially motivated.

[salm]

So, if the British army is so experienced in controlling riots, what would be their tactics and equipment in such cases?

[weemadando]

And yes, that might have been a single race related incident in a mass of general criminality, but its a big thick line which someone just crossed.

[Steel]

So, if the British army is so experienced in controlling riots, what would be their tactics and equipment in such cases?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oifDFOzoiPQ

They have been doing it in NI for decades.

I don't think the riots are going to go much further at this stage. I'm almost certain that things have burnt out now...

[salm]

So does the British Army have equivalent or at least similar training to police regarding riot control?
If this is the case I retract my statements. If they are trained but significantly worse than the police I don´t.

[Broomstick]

The Northern Ireland situation was unusual, perhaps even unique. The military stationed there during the time that was a problem did, in fact, have training and experience in riot control, with rubber bullets being one of the tactics I remember hearing about. They also were alleged to use excessive violence but whether that's true or not often depends on which side you ask.

However, that would be limited to those particular troops - I doubt the whole of the British military is given that sort of training, and whole wouldn't have the experience.

[UnderAGreySky]

All quiet on the English front, though it's an uneasy quiet.

Give us the right to parent

Stirling's analysis is more nuanced – citing poverty, unemployment, failings of the education system, police harassment, among other triggers – but he believes parents have become afraid to discipline their own children, and warns this is at least part of the problem that has erupted across cities this week.

"Bad behaviour and criminality has been glamorised on the streets. Teachers are scared to punish children. The modern child isn't frightened of their parents. They don't care if the police lock them up," he said.

Highly respected for his work with young people on one of London's most troubled estates, Stirling, who was given an MBE in 2007, has a sharp sense of the unease which has been simmering. This hostility towards the police, combined with an absence of parental discipline made for an explosive combination, he said.

"If you have a child, you are responsible for that child," said Harry Cumberbatch, 62, from South Norwood, talking outside burnt out shops in Croydon. "What's going on here today? Children are making children. They are not old enough and haven't got the education to raise those children. So the children become just like them. They wind up with no education, no future. If the parents aren't there to give discipline that child will run like a wild fox until the day he dies."

The article is huge, and is very well written/compiled.

[Zaune]

The Northern Ireland situation was unusual, perhaps even unique. The military stationed there during the time that was a problem did, in fact, have training and experience in riot control, with rubber bullets being one of the tactics I remember hearing about. They also were alleged to use excessive violence but whether that's true or not often depends on which side you ask.

However, that would be limited to those particular troops - I doubt the whole of the British military is given that sort of training, and whole wouldn't have the experience.

Actually, we used to rotate regiments in and out of duty there all the time, so a sizeable percentage of the Army probably would have the necessary skillset. Our garrisons there have been massively scaled back in the last fifteen years or so, however, and it wouldn't be atypical of our government to have let public-order training lapse.

And I need hardly point out that this hard-won experience and carefully refined training came at a cost of several almighty cock-ups, of which Bloody Sunday is the best known.

[Lord of the Abyss]

They have been doing it in NI for decades.

The fact that the "Troubles" lasted decades isn't exactly a good sign for the military being good at keeping the peace.

[Broomstick]

The roots of the Irish Troubles actually go back about 400-800 years (I would rather not sidetrack into specifics in this thread). Given that perspective, getting the area to settle down over the course of 20-30 years isn't that outrageous.

[JointStrikeFighter]

So does the British Army have equivalent or at least similar training to police regarding riot control?
If this is the case I retract my statements. If they are trained but significantly worse than the police I don´t.

The other point is the army can stop new riots from happening in a given location just by standing on corners looking intimidating.

[Crown]

I know. I just have a terrible feeling that when a rioter finally gets killed, the situation will degenerate to the point where the army are forced to go in with IFVs and helicopter gunship support to restore order.

I have no idea why you say that. These riots aren't about any broad or specific political point or demand. They are about criminality. While yes there are some serious issues regarding the failure of society that brought this about, the general trend/mood of the rioters is that they are doing it 'because they can'. When they start getting hosed down/beaten/shot at, you watch their little balls shrivel up and fuck off. Jesus Christ, Millwall fans know exactly what to do here.

Also I find it it completely bizarre that people's heads are cracked open the second you go to protest the G8/IMF but when rioters are targeting small businesses suddenly the police don't know what to do ... okay, I'll grant a gross oversimplification.

[Kingmaker]

Also I find it it completely bizarre that people's heads are cracked open the second you go to protest the G8/IMF but when rioters are targeting small businesses suddenly the police don't know what to do ... okay, I'll grant a gross oversimplification.

Because in the first case, protesters, belligerent or not, are directly confronting security forces. Avoiding the police would require them to absent themselves entire, defeating the purpose. Throw in the occasional person looking to start a fight and/or some police on a hair trigger and voila!

Whereas in the second case, the rioters are rioters as opposed to protesters, and thus have no incentive to confront police or other security forces, and every reason to run away to somewhere the police aren't.

[wautd]

I didn't want to go into this thread, because this is one of those topics that make people on this board collectively loose halve their IQ. But this article is pretty spot on, imho:

By Martin Fletcher, NBC News correspondent

LONDON -- As political and social protests grip the Middle East, are growing in Europe and a riot exploded in north London this weekend, here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

I heared there was a peaceful protest of 9000 people just a week age, receiving the same media cover (none).

The right fucking thing to do would be to give these people ANYTHING more productive to do. As long as Cameron is only giving speeches about how everyone will be punished, instead of going to these peole and listening to them, these kinds of troubles will happen again and again.

It's pretty appalling that the UK government isn't offering a single shred of long term sollutions. I don't condone the violence, but I can understand why it happens. Push people too far and the powder keg explodes.

[Lord Zentei]

I didn't want to go into this thread, because this is one of those topics that make people on this board collectively loose halve their IQ. But this article is pretty spot on, imho:

By Martin Fletcher, NBC News correspondent

LONDON -- As political and social protests grip the Middle East, are growing in Europe and a riot exploded in north London this weekend, here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

I heared there was a peaceful protest of 9000 people just a week age, receiving the same media cover (none).

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be "is looting and torching buildings the correct way to express your discontent?", not to mention that this kind of behaviour is a great way for the rioters to turn public opinion against them.