Rioting in London?

[Zaune]

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be "is looting and torching buildings the correct way to express your discontent?", not to mention that this kind of behaviour is a great way for the rioters to turn public opinion against them.

I imagine there are a limited number of Conservative MPs or councillors for the angry mobs to hang from the nearest streetlamp in those neighbourhoods, so looting and burning was probably the next best thing they could think of. (We don't have a "thin film of black humour over a yawning pit of despair" emoticon. Perhaps we should.)

[Lord Zentei]

So: the only thing these people could think of doing was to burn down down buildings and steal property. I'm sure all those missing DVD players are going to send a strong message to Parliament.

Never mind the fact that many of those stores had apartments directly above them. Frankly, it's a marvel more people weren't killed by these stupidities.

If you want to protest, fine. If you want an aggressive protest, go right ahead if you think that's the only way to get your point across (hint: it's not). But if you endanger people's lives and destroy your neighbour's homes and workplaces, you're nothing but a fucktard, regardless of what your grievances are.

[Hillary]

I disagree on the basis that the military are simply not trained to deal with civilian situations such as this and there is nothing to suggest that the police will not be able to get this thing under control themselves. I would go further and say that the army would actually make things worse at this stage.

The army did riot control in NI for thirty years. They've got vast institutional experience of this sort of thing.

And how well did that go?

[Hillary]

Damn - I was too late to edit.

Further to that, Crown, there is a world of difference between a few rioters smashing things up and 2 sides locked in a sectarian war with its roots going back beyond living memory. In one case you are dealing with armed thugs on both sides and a sizeable public support. This is a minor flare up by comparison and it's already dying a death.

No need for the military who would, as I said, simply raise the ante and potentially make things worse. I don't want troops shooting civilians on the streets in this country - which is what will inevitably happen.

In other news, Cameron has described part of our society as being sick. His cure is not to tackle the illness, but to kick the hell out of the patient. Nice work.

Finally, it is interesting to note that our Prime Minister, Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mayor of London were all part of the Bullingdon Club at Oxford University. For those who don't know, the Bullers are a notorious bunch who's main claim to fame is eating at restaurants which they then trash.

From Wikipedia (I know, I know)

Andrew Gimson, biographer of Boris Johnson, reported about the club in the 1980s: "I don't think an evening would have ended without a restaurant being trashed and being paid for in full, very often in cash. [...] A night in the cells would be regarded as being par for a Buller man and so would debagging anyone who really attracted the irritation of the Buller men."

Double standards, anyone?

[wautd]

Double standards, anyone?

I jsut find the irony delicious when english politicians are telling you shouldn't steal, while the recent corruption scandals are still fresh in my memory.

[Chirios]

Double standards, anyone?

I jsut find the irony delicious when english politicians are telling you shouldn't steal, while the recent corruption scandals are still fresh in my memory.

Haha, innit.

Cameron is saying that he's going to deport people, but that's just a sound bite.

[Broomstick]

Who's he gonna deport - aren't most of the guilty UK citizens through and through?

[Captain Seafort]

Who's he gonna deport - aren't most of the guilty UK citizens through and through?

There's probably at least a few illegals involved, who can be sent home. We'll send the rest to the Aussies.

[Crown]

Because in the first case, protesters, belligerent or not, are directly confronting security forces. Avoiding the police would require them to absent themselves entire, defeating the purpose. Throw in the occasional person looking to start a fight and/or some police on a hair trigger and voila!

Whereas in the second case, the rioters are rioters as opposed to protesters, and thus have no incentive to confront police or other security forces, and every reason to run away to somewhere the police aren't.

I accept that as being true, as I said I was making a gross oversimplification. But the symbolism, the imagery is striking;

Middle class and protesting at the top 1% economic elite systematically destroying your entire future and way of life while chasing a neo-liberalism pie in the sky economic policy (to say nothing about the screwing over of developing nations)? Get your head cracked open by the Police.

Chav underclass and engaging thievery and criminality against the middle class with unrestrained sub-humanism? The Police keep a safe distance.

Seriously. What. The. Fuck?

Further to that, Crown, there is a world of difference between a few rioters smashing things up and 2 sides locked in a sectarian war with its roots going back beyond living memory. In one case you are dealing with armed thugs on both sides and a sizeable public support. This is a minor flare up by comparison and it's already dying a death.

Err... I'm not entirely certain to what I wrote that touched o 'sectarian war with roots going back beyond living memory' that you're replying to?

No need for the military who would, as I said, simply raise the ante and potentially make things worse. I don't want troops shooting civilians on the streets in this country - which is what will inevitably happen.

Oh give it a rest. This clearly isn't some focused political agenda (or wasn't as it has appeared to die down now), it is thuggery and thievery by Chavs who are doing it 'because it's a bit of fun' and 'because we can, the Police can't stop us'. They are cowardly little runts, who will piss down their legs as soon as some heads get cracked. MILLWALL fans for crying out loud know this, they've been policing their own community with nothing more than the assurance if anyone tries to riot in their community they'll break them.

Would it have been treating the symptom rather than the cause? Sure I'll cop to that. But I don't see how that would be wrong.

Double standards, anyone?

As I alluded to earlier; Etonian pricks. All of them.

Who's he gonna deport - aren't most of the guilty UK citizens through and through?

There's probably at least a few illegals involved, who can be sent home. We'll send the rest to the Aussies.

Lol. I'm pretty sure he said that people who are caught doing this will lose their council homing, which sounds 'just and right' and all that, but will just magnify the poverty problem.

[mr friendly guy]

Cameron considers blocking Twitter

Aug. 11, 2011, 4:10 p.m. EDT
U.K. looks at blocking social-media sites

By Rex Crum, MarketWatch

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — To clamp down on rampages that have stricken cities across England, Prime Minister David Cameron said Thursday he is considering blocking social-networking sites and messaging services that rioters reportedly have used over the past week.

Cameron made the remarks Thursday in a session of Parliament after police said protest leaders used social-media sites such as Twitter and Research In Motion Ltd.’s /quotes/zigman/18534/quotes/nls/rimm RIMM -0.25% /quotes/zigman/18555 CA:RIM +8.36% BlackBerry messages to organize some of the riots.

Violent outbursts have destroyed property and resulted in more than 1,300 people being arrested across the country since the unrest began Aug. 6. At least four people have died in incidents relating to the riots, according to reports.

Speaking before Parliament, Cameron said that when people use social media to promote violence, “We need to stop them.”

Matt Graves, a spokesman for Twitter, said the company had no comment on the matter, nor if it has had any discussions with the British government about the possibility of the microblogging service being shut down in the United Kingdom.

RIM said in a statement that, “”We welcome the opportunity for consultation together with other companies in the technology and telecommunications industry,” and that it “continues to comply with both U.K. privacy laws as well as the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act” in the U.K.

Rex Crum is a reporter for MarketWatch in San Francisco.

So the British are thinking of imitating the Chinese government.

[Chirios]

Oh give it a rest. This clearly isn't some focused political agenda (or wasn't as it has appeared to die down now), it is thuggery and thievery by Chavs who are doing it 'because it's a bit of fun' and 'because we can, the Police can't stop us'. They are cowardly little runts, who will piss down their legs as soon as some heads get cracked. MILLWALL fans for crying out loud know this, they've been policing their own community with nothing more than the assurance if anyone tries to riot in their community they'll break them.

THIS.

That said, the government hasn't done fuck all to deal with the systematic issues inherent not only in British council estates but in British society as well. The areas where the looting occurred: Tottenham, Brixton, Hackney, Toxteth etc. are all high crime areas. In these areas there is large gun crime, not anywhere near as large as say in American housing projects but frankly quite significant. If a cop was found to have battered a little kid there's a good chance his elders might have seen this as an opportunity to get out their guns and start firing at police. So they had a legitimate reason to not want to exacerbate the situation.

Furthermore, instead of trying to actually address the issues that face the poor in this country they are jumping on reactionary, and frankly, illegal legislation that sounds good but will accomplish fuck-all.

(for non-brits: gun crime exists in Britain largely due to gunsmiths converting replica's so that they can fire live ammunition, somewhere near 75% of all illegal British guns are replicas, the rest are usually shotguns stolen from the countryside. This is why "serious gun-related offences" in Britain consists mostly of morons blowing their own hand off by firing a weapon that wasn't properly converted)

Cameron considers blocking Twitter

Quote:
Aug. 11, 2011, 4:10 p.m. EDT
U.K. looks at blocking social-media sites

By Rex Crum, MarketWatch

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — To clamp down on rampages that have stricken cities across England, Prime Minister David Cameron said Thursday he is considering blocking social-networking sites and messaging services that rioters reportedly have used over the past week.

Cameron made the remarks Thursday in a session of Parliament after police said protest leaders used social-media sites such as Twitter and Research In Motion Ltd.’s /quotes/zigman/18534/quotes/nls/rimm RIMM -0.25% /quotes/zigman/18555 CA:RIM +8.36% BlackBerry messages to organize some of the riots.

Violent outbursts have destroyed property and resulted in more than 1,300 people being arrested across the country since the unrest began Aug. 6. At least four people have died in incidents relating to the riots, according to reports.

Speaking before Parliament, Cameron said that when people use social media to promote violence, “We need to stop them.”

Matt Graves, a spokesman for Twitter, said the company had no comment on the matter, nor if it has had any discussions with the British government about the possibility of the microblogging service being shut down in the United Kingdom.

RIM said in a statement that, “”We welcome the opportunity for consultation together with other companies in the technology and telecommunications industry,” and that it “continues to comply with both U.K. privacy laws as well as the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act” in the U.K.

Rex Crum is a reporter for MarketWatch in San Francisco.


So the British are thinking of imitating the Chinese government.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. He can't ban twitter, he knows he can't ban twitter, but when he tries and then get's stopped from doing it he'll get the good publicity from pretending to be "tough on crime" whilst being able to blame it's entirely predictable failure on the EU.

[mr friendly guy]

some of the rioters are from wealthy backgrounds

Shock over 'respectable' lives behind masks of UK rioters
By Catriona Davies for CNN
August 11, 2011 -- Updated 1440 GMT (2240 HKT)

London (CNN) -- Before they started appearing in court, most people assumed London's rioters and looters were unemployed youths with no hope and no future.

So there was much surprise when details of the accused began to emerge, and they included some from wealthy backgrounds or with good jobs.

Those passing through London's courtrooms on Tuesday and Wednesday -- some courts sat overnight to cope with the numbers -- have included a teaching assistant, a lifeguard, a postman, a chef, a charity worker, a millionaire's daughter and an 11-year-old boy, newspapers reported.

The tabloid Sun newspaper wrote in its opinion page on Thursday of the "sick" society described by Prime Minister David Cameron: "The sickness starts on welfare-addicted estates where feckless parents let children run wild."

But its front-page headline told a different story about the accused: "Lifeguard, postman, hairdresser, teacher, millionaire's daughter, chef and schoolboy, 11."

The Daily Mail reported: "While the trouble has been largely blamed on feral teenagers, many of those paraded before the courts yesterday led apparently respectable lives."

The upmarket Daily Telegraph devoted its page three to the case of Laura Johnson, the 19-year-old daughter of a company director who pleaded not guilty to stealing £5,000 ($8,000) of electrical goods, under the headline: "Girl who has it all is accused of theft."

The newspaper said she lived in a converted farmhouse in the leafy London suburb of Orpington, Kent, with extensive grounds and a tennis court, had studied at one of the best-performing state schools in the country and now attends the University of Exeter.

Reporter Andrew Gilligan wrote in the Daily Telegraph: "Here in court, as David Cameron condemned the 'sickness' in parts of British society, we saw clearly, for the first time, the face of the riot: stripped of its hoods and masks, dressed in white prison T-shirts and handcuffed to burly security guards.

"It was rather different from the one we had been expecting."

He added of the defendants at Highbury Magistrates Court in north London: "Most were teenagers or in their early twenties, but a surprising number were older.

"Most interestingly of all, they were predominantly white, and many had jobs."

Most newspapers highlighted the case of Alexis Bailey, a 31-year-old learning mentor in an elementary school, who pleaded guilty to burglary with intent to steal at an electrical store in Croydon, south of London.

It was reported that Bailey surrendered to police without stealing anything.

The youngest defendant so far -- an 11-year-old boy -- also gained much attention in newspapers.

The boy, who cannot be named for legal reasons, from Romford, east of London, admitted stealing a £50 ($80) trash can from a department store, the Guardian reported.

The Daily Mail highlighted the cases of Barry Naine, a 42-year-old charity worker charged with burglary; postman Jeffrey Ebanks, 32, and his student nephew Jamal Ebanks, 18, allegedly caught in a car stuffed with electrical goods near a looted Croydon store.

It also reported that Jason Matthews, a 35-year-old new father arrested in a Tesco supermarket, told police he "was not one of the bad ones" and needed diapers for his baby; and that Christopher Heart, a 23-year-old scaffolder and father of two, shouted "sorry for the inconvenience" and broke down in tears after admitting burglary at a sports shop in east London.

Lifeguard Aaron Mulholland, 30, wept as he appeared in court accused of joining thieves in a cell phone shop, the Daily Mail reported.

The Sun reported that an organic chef, Fitzroy Thomas, 43, and his 47-year-old brother Ronald, denied smashing up a branch of the Nando's chicken restaurant chain.

The Metropolitan Police in London said on its website on Thursday that 401 people have been charged so far.

Greater Manchester Police said five men aged between 46 and 23 had already been jailed for their part in the disorder.

West Midlands Police said 26 people, including a 44-year-old man, had appeared before an overnight court session in relation to the disorder in Birmingham.

[Chirios]

some of the rioters are from wealthy backgrounds

Not in any way surprising. This is Chav culture, which is impossible to explain if you don't live in England. I do love how everyone assumed that it was the minorities though.

[Broomstick]

Well, well, well... and how many of those well-off rioters, had they not been caught, would have been among the loudest to blame the "chavs"?

[Lord Zentei]

I've never bought the myth that this was about poverty. Moreover, the people of the Arab Spring managed to topple two dictators with several decades of rule under their belts without going on a pillaging spree. They had not only far more genuine grievances, but the very real prospect of being attacked by security forces, and they showed truly inspiring courage and morals in the face of repression. This bullshit in the UK doesn't compare.

Well, well, well... and how many of those well-off rioters, had they not been caught, would have been among the loudest to blame the "chavs"?

As I understand it, being a "chav" is a lifestyle, not an income bracket (though it's often associated with such). Just like you can be a "redneck" without being a white rural person from the Southern US.

Cameron considers blocking Twitter

Quote:
Aug. 11, 2011, 4:10 p.m. EDT
U.K. looks at blocking social-media sites

By Rex Crum, MarketWatch <snip>

Blocking social media as a result of social unrest? Where have I heard that before?

The mere fact that Cameron said that he was considering it is shameful.

[Chirios]

Well, well, well... and how many of those well-off rioters, had they not been caught, would have been among the loudest to blame the "chavs"?

No, no, no, you don't understand. Chav's are a not a group limited to the poor and working class. They spread across all classes, all races, all genders. They are a rainbow nation of dickery.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I don't think blocking twitter is reminiscent of China so much as the strongman regimes in Egypt and Syria.

[Lord Zentei]

I don't think blocking twitter is reminiscent of China so much as the strongman regimes in Egypt and Syria.

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

I would have thought that saying something like this would have turned public opinion against Cameron, but apparently not.

[Ryan Thunder]

This is Chav culture, which is impossible to explain if you don't live in England.

Could you try?

[Broomstick]

I don't think blocking twitter is reminiscent of China so much as the strongman regimes in Egypt and Syria.

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

I would have thought that saying something like this would have turned public opinion against Cameron, but apparently not.

Is the proposed blocking temporary, for times of unrest, or permanent? That might make a difference in peoples' opinions.

[Chirios]

This is Chav culture, which is impossible to explain if you don't live in England.

Could you try?

It's a culture of faux-gangsterism, defined by being rude, starting fights, getting drunk and being generally loud and obnoxious. Chav's can be identified through their improper use of the English language and the wearing of extremely garish and fake gold jewellery, Burberry caps and scarves, tracksuit bottoms and cheap stripey t-shirts. Chav's have a tendency to hang around in groups and gangs. It's a common myth that the chav is "on the dole", but the truth is that this spreads across class and gender, which is why you get mouthy young girls starting fights with old men.

Don't get it wrong though, youths in the UK still have a much lower crime and teenage pregnancy rate than they did in previous decades, so this isn't an old idiot going: "these kids of today, no respect! bwah!"

Furthermore, while people will be like: I don't understand these kids, the fact is that violence has been part of British culture for decades. see: modds and rockers, football hooligans. These kids are another in a long line of people who think fighting and smashing shit up is cool and fun. They also enjoy getting free things.

[madd0ct0r]

a chav can be define as a lower class sloane.

(sloane being a very old description of a loud, obnoxious rich arsehole - commonly known as RAhs nowadays, The bullingdon club are reasonably good examples)

[Zaune]

Apparently, there are going to be new rules against wearing face-masks. No potential for abuse there, is there? *sigh*

On the other hand, one almost has to admire the sheer flair of a government that manages to piss off the Muslim population of the country and the British furry fandom with the same law.

[Phantasee]

Do you actually think there are enough furries in the UK for anyone to give a fuck about them?

[Zaune]

Well, I saw two fursuiters in Weymouth once and there was nothing in the papers about them getting burned as witches or anything, so it can't be that niche.

But on a more serious note, picture this hypothetical scenario. You're cycling to work in winter, and you're wearing a big woolly hat and a scarf over your mouth and nose. A police patrol car cuts you up at a junction, and you make a rude gesture at them. What do you want to bet that under whatever new laws the Tories come up with, the police would then be empowered to nail you with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice for something like "Going equipped to commit public disorder" or whatever?