Deathwatch vs Space marines

[OmegaChief]

It is also a case of limited tech too, the Deathwatch get all kinds of goodies the Imperium can't produce even on a scale as small to provide enough for a single chapter, but can for a couple of kill teams (Such wonders as a Heavy Bolter that has autostablilses, turning it from a Heavy to an Assault, or in none game terms letting you run and gun with no loss of acccurasy orneeding to brace to fire).

In addition it trains the Marines in styles of warfare they migth not be familair with, Ultramarines serving in the Deathwatch get to learn non-Codex menouvers and stuff like that. In addition the Deathwatch roams over a far broader scope then chapters might otherwise.

Sure, some chapters might be able to perform similarly in the Deathwatch, or some notable Marines in otehr chapters can pull off things like that. This actually comes into play in the DoW2 example you mentioned, Cyrus served in the Deathwatch, and this actually helped him identify early signs of 'nids that the others missed.

So the Deathwatch takes all the best of the best, those marines from otehr chapters who can pull this stuff off, gives them even better then average tech and cross chapter/non-Codex training, a support infrastructure tor apidly respond to xenos threats and sets them to work.

Sure other marine chapters can do/have people who can do the things Deathwatch can do, because those are the Marines who get recruited into the Deathwatch, where they get to do all those things but even better.

[Agent Sorchus]

Is the structure of a Chapter even what you want in a fast response small fire team group that covers so much territory? Even the Grey Knights don't follow the chapter structure, not really. There are multiple Grand Masters precisely because they have to cover so much area and need to have high enough command to commit in case of a major excursion. And the grey knights and the Ordo Maleus seem to be more radical as a whole then the Ordo Xenos, so the idea of creating a chapter only for it to not follow any of the trappings of a chapter might not have been as obvious an idea to them.

Plus it introduces some character to the most boring of the Inquisition's orders. Why even have the Ordo Xenos since every other aspect of the Imperium is there to play merry hell and inflict harm on the xenos of the galaxy. (Eissenhorn novels really get to me since he is supposed to be a Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, but rarely investigates xenos. He is even famous for his use of anti-psykers which don't have all that much to do with Xenos.)

[Imperial Overlord]

I would hesitate to say that, given that Inquisitor Lords have the rank to order/influence foundings to combat the Tyrannid threat. Chapter masters agreeing to assist them would certainly have subsidised the political cost of forming the Deathwatch, but let's not deceive ourselves. Creating the Deathwatch in and as of itself would had required a political battle that the Conclave did win.

The power and influence of Inquisitor Lords varies greatly. The Inquisition is in some ways almost at war with itself. What one group of Inquisitor Lords can accomplish is different than what another group can accomplish, based on influence and connections. It's one the problems when talking about the Inquisition's influence. In the founding of the Deathwatch, the conclave in question didn't fight a political battle. It united in asking for the aid of various Astartes Chapters and eventually the Chapter Masters agreed. If there was a political price to be paid, it was a hidden price to the Astartes.

As for Assassins, they're much harder to get than Deatwatch Marines and they are frankly not well suited to most tasks. They're great for killing rogue planetary governors, not boarding a Space Hulk and retrieving live xenos specimens for bioweapon research. Line Astartes can do Deathwatch jobs, but they don't have the advantages of Deathwatch specialty equipment and training. The Crimson Fists are great at killing Orc Hordes, but they aren't well equipped to infiltrate a small team into enemy territory, capture xenotech, and escape. If you're going to fight a conventional battle, the best use of the Deathwatch is as advisers. You want a Tau Ethereal killed? An Assassin is a great choice. . . if you can get your hands on one. It requires authorization from the High Lords of Terra. The Deathwatch don't and if they're involved capture becomes a realistic option as well.

That's bollocks. Dawn of War II novelisation,a Blood Raven squad infiltrate a world being consumed by the Tyranids to capture/secure relics and escaped. Killing Ethereal? Again, Space Marines do that too. One of their tactics is to assasinate enemy commanders/leaders, and their strategy to take over a planet involves decapcitation strikes against C&C. If nothing else, that's exactly WHAT their scouts do.

Seriously. The ONLY time you don't need a normal space marine to do Deathwatch stuff is when you need an Assasin.

Bullshit. Blood Ravens don't have stealthed warships. Most scouts are trainees, not veterans. Most chapters don't have the Deathwatch's equipment and most chapters don't specialize in single squad deployments and operations. And Assassins, as I mentioned and you didn't address, can only be dispatched at the command of the High Lords of Terra.

As for xenos training, seriously, what SPECIAL training do they have? Mano el Mano fights where a Space Marine must fight and kill a captured xeno specimen, sometimes without armour or with their bare fists. Tactical training in which a small kill team in inserted in various environments to kill xenos. Anti xeno tactics. There's literally nothing in there that normal space marine chapters SHOULDN"T be doing.

Normal Space Marine chapters train to deal with their local threats. If they're half way across the galaxy from the Tau, they aren't going to be studying Tau anatomy. If there near the Eye of Terror, xenos aren't going to be their first concern. No single chapter can match the accumulated knowledge and resources of the Deathwatch when it comes to anti-xenos training. Most chapters don't have Inquisition databases on dormant alien species that could pose a grave risk to the Imperium if they should awaken in force (the Necrons aren't the only ones). Nor are capture and information deep infiltration intelligence gathering missions going to be normal work for most Space Marine chapters. Can an ordinary Marine Chapter, and the Blood Ravens are closer to extraordinary than ordinary, do a lot of these missions? Of course they can. The Deathwatch was formed from Space Marines precisely because Marines can do most of these missions. The Deathwatch edge is further honed by possession of Inqusition knowledge, equipment, specialized training, etcetera. It isn't that other Marines can't do the job, but the time an ordinary chapter uses training on running armour assaults lead by Land Raiders and Predators the Deathwatch uses to train on how to kill Obscure Xenos Species #3789 in small unit actions.

As for specialised equipment, yeah, that's a valid argument. One that's sidestepped if the Inquisition simply created their own Marine chapter.

And I agreed with that earlier. The Deathwatch are as they are because of the circumstances of how they were created and the feudal nature of the Imperium, not because a Chapter Militant couldn't be set up another way.

I'm sorry, but arguing that the Deathwatch does stuff better or that no one else can do is sheer nonsense. The only thing they do better is because they're equipped with better equipment.
Politics or spreading of experience is probably the best explaination for the continued existence of the Deathwatch.

Oh politics plays a part, no doubt. The Inquisition loves having well equipped groups of veteran Astartes on call, although the Deathwatch does a hell of a lot more than wait around for fires to break out. However, the Deathwatch are specialists in kinds of operations they do run. Any Space Marine Chapter can do a good job running a siege, but the Imperial Fists are better at it than almost anyone else. Same with the Deathwatch and the operations the Inquisition tends to run.

[PainRack]

How about this explanation. The deathwatch is an extremely expensive military unit. It consists of huge numbers of super elite (even for their standards) super soldiers who are supplied with the best and most expensive equipment, no costs spared. Both of these factors the men and the equipment alone carry a huge cost. As such, it makes sense to outsource the production and training of said super soldiers to someone else so that you can have more resources to devote to acquiring equipment for them.

The resources needed to build a space marine chapter is literally trivial when compared to the resources the Inquisition expended on creating, manning, supplying said watch fortresses. Remember, you're talking about sending an entire starship to a Marine chapter to pick up ONE space marine who is suitable for the Death watch. And he's only available for a few missions, sometimes, only one, before he must be returned. At YOUR expense.

I'm sorry, but arguing that the resources needed to produce and train a space marine is inconsequential when compared to this alone. Much less the exterminatus, the probes or exotic technology.

The one of the most important aspects of any rapid deployment force is that it's available to who ever has control over and thus can rapidly deploy it when the need arises. Inquisition has control over the deathwatch and thus knows how and where it is deployed and how much surplus force they have at their disposal against future threats. They will ask other chapters for help, but it's not sensible to assume they do so before they exhausted their own force or they are unavailable for some other reason. With the comm lag these guys have, people really have to make that extra effort to make sure the people who need to know where you are have that information and other SM chapters are not required to keep the inquisition informed about their comings and goings, not to mention in what readiness the said chapter is and other details that heavily influence one's ability to take action.

-Gunhead

That's debatable. outfitting a Kill team is stated to be the responsibility of the Watch fortress commander, the Inquisition can state their requiremetns but its the commander who has the marines and can outfit the team. Furthermore, there does not appear to be any centralised Inquisition database that states how many kill teams or what assets are avaiable at any fortress.

Furthermore, the need to actually have a reliable resource would actually dictate that an entire marine chapter be available for their requirements.

It is also a case of limited tech too, the Deathwatch get all kinds of goodies the Imperium can't produce even on a scale as small to provide enough for a single chapter, but can for a couple of kill teams (Such wonders as a Heavy Bolter that has autostablilses, turning it from a Heavy to an Assault, or in none game terms letting you run and gun with no loss of acccurasy orneeding to brace to fire).

Wrong. Given the Deathwatch commitments throughout the galaxy, the fact that an entire kill team, the equivalent of a squad for many watch stations, with multiple kill teams for larger fortresses, the chapter must be larger than an entire chapter. With more specialists like librarians/apothecaries than the normal chapter.
Furthermore, the equipment outlays where large amount of exotic tech rests in the watch stations suggest that there's more than enough to outfit multiple chapters. The Inquisition is clearly able to outfit an entire chapter with such wonders, the issues is outfitting all 1 thousand of them.
Furthermore, I note that you're using the rules where Marines who had returned back to their chapter are equipped with superior technology compared to their counterparts, which suggest that the Inquisition must be regularly producing such equipment if they allow Marine devastator to return with these technology.

Sure, some chapters might be able to perform similarly in the Deathwatch, or some notable Marines in otehr chapters can pull off things like that. This actually comes into play in the DoW2 example you mentioned, Cyrus served in the Deathwatch, and this actually helped him identify early signs of 'nids that the others missed.

No. The example I quoted did not have Cyrus involvement whatsoever.
I will note that literally nowhere in the novel was Cyrus able to provide "early" signs of nids. The first sign of the team noticing nids on Typhon for example was noted by Aramus, with the Jungle Spirits and Avitus seeing nid sign. So CLEARLY, such knowledge is relatively widespread in the Blood Raven chapter.
Cyrus contribution of specialised anti xeno knowledge was to tell militia that hey, we have hellfire rounds that can take down Nids. Sorry dudes, we have barely enough for ourselves, you guys keep your lasguns. For the EMPRAR!

Yeah. I know, worst 19 bucks I ever spent. After reading the Doom novels, I should had realised that game to novels are literally shit by now.

Is the structure of a Chapter even what you want in a fast response small fire team group that covers so much territory? Even the Grey Knights don't follow the chapter structure, not really. There are multiple Grand Masters precisely because they have to cover so much area and need to have high enough command to commit in case of a major excursion. And the grey knights and the Ordo Maleus seem to be more radical as a whole then the Ordo Xenos, so the idea of creating a chapter only for it to not follow any of the trappings of a chapter might not have been as obvious an idea to them.

Chaos Space Marine codex establish that Space marines are routinely broken down into squad levels to conduct entire planetary campaigns/missions for an extended period of time. For example, an Ultramarine squad fought against Genestealers for years, and then massacared the nobles as they were part of the genestealer cult. The planet revolt against this act of muder was what excited him and his squad to turn to Chaos.
Its argued that this tactic leaves marines vulnerable to Chaos, as Chaplains and higher ups would not get to reinforce and monitor the morale of said marines but this is the exact same situation Kill teams are placed in so...... meh.

[PainRack]

The power and influence of Inquisitor Lords varies greatly. The Inquisition is in some ways almost at war with itself. What one group of Inquisitor Lords can accomplish is different than what another group can accomplish, based on influence and connections. It's one the problems when talking about the Inquisition's influence. In the founding of the Deathwatch, the conclave in question didn't fight a political battle. It united in asking for the aid of various Astartes Chapters and eventually the Chapter Masters agreed. If there was a political price to be paid, it was a hidden price to the Astartes.

I'm sorry, what is your point? Are you attempting to say that the establishment of the Deathwatch passed without any comment or censure later, because the Chapter masters agreed to it?
And this would not have been the case if the Inquisition had requested the creation of their own Marine chapter?

Bullshit. Blood Ravens don't have stealthed warships. Most scouts are trainees, not veterans. Most chapters don't have the Deathwatch's equipment and most chapters don't specialize in single squad deployments and operations. And Assassins, as I mentioned and you didn't address, can only be dispatched at the command of the High Lords of Terra.

Ok. You're shifting the goalposts of the discussion here.

The specific point in topic I was responding to was the implication that there are missions only the Deathwatch can accomplish.
That's bollocks. AGAIN, the entire scope of the missions accomplished by the Deathwatch are routinely accomplished by other Marine chapters routinely. The ONLY thing that's not within the scope is removing a governer in "secrecy", for which, the Assasins fulfill the role.

You're also hamstrung on the idea that hey, if we are to replace the Deathwatch, we MUST do everything the same way the Deathwatch does. That's like arguing that if we were to replace cavalry with tanks, then tanks must do everything the same way the horsies do. Of course, I WILL once again note that in DOW 2 novelisation, they despatched a single squad to recover the holy relic being overrun by the Tyrannids. Oh, and it wasn't a single mission, but actually, 3 seperate recovery missions. EXACTLY how the Deathwatch operates. So again, what specialised niche does the Deathwatch occupy that normal marine chapters don't already do? You need veteran, elite anti xeno hunters for this? Aramus squad lost their sarge early and despite their losses, they did accomplish their mission. Tarkus, which is ia battle hardened veteran led his single tactical squad to hold off an entire Tyranid swarm, allowing Typhon tribes to evacuate aboard the dauntless cruisers before leading his shattered squad to board the Hive fleet ships aboard a modified torpedo, smashing into the Hive overmind and killing them. And succeeded.(The novel used a target that's non canon, that's black library problem, not mine).

Hell, 4th edition Codex establishes that the Marine chapters are using mere SCOUTS, with hellfire rounds to board Tyranid Hive ships. AGAIN, you keep arguing that the missions are "special" for the Deathwatch. Just WHAT is so special that no other marine chapter, or that they need elite, veteran alien hunters? Tarkus had no special training other than several encounters with the Nids.

Furthermore, none of your points actually argue for WHY the deathwatch must be built the way it is. By simply creating their own marine chapter, the Deathwatch becomes more efficient and reliable.

Normal Space Marine chapters train to deal with their local threats. If they're half way across the galaxy from the Tau, they aren't going to be studying Tau anatomy. If there near the Eye of Terror, xenos aren't going to be their first concern. No single chapter can match the accumulated knowledge and resources of the Deathwatch when it comes to anti-xenos training. Most chapters don't have Inquisition databases on dormant alien species that could pose a grave risk to the Imperium if they should awaken in force (the Necrons aren't the only ones). Nor are capture and information deep infiltration intelligence gathering missions going to be normal work for most Space Marine chapters.

I don't know. To actually do this, why not you know... create their own Space Marine chapter?
The arguments advocated regarding politics and spreading around anti-xeno knowledge, tactics does explain why the Deathwatch works the way it does. Yours, that the Deathwatch is "unique" in its role and thus require taking veteran, alien hunters from other chapters to do their missions best is nonsense.

Capture, information, deep infiltration, intelligence gathering missions ARE normal work for most Marine chapters. They're routine work for scouts. The rules also establish traits where Space Marines rely on normal marines to do such work, giving them the ability to infiltrate like scouts.

Can an ordinary Marine Chapter, and the Blood Ravens are closer to extraordinary than ordinary, do a lot of these missions? Of course they can. The Deathwatch was formed from Space Marines precisely because Marines can do most of these missions. The Deathwatch edge is further honed by possession of Inqusition knowledge, equipment, specialized training, etcetera. It isn't that other Marines can't do the job, but the time an ordinary chapter uses training on running armour assaults lead by Land Raiders and Predators the Deathwatch uses to train on how to kill Obscure Xenos Species #3789 in small unit actions.

Again. I will once again note that there is literally nothing special about the Deathwatch training as detailed in the RPG. What they have is that they have specialised knowledge.

Furthermore, if the Marines can do these missions, why do you need a special unit? You're aren't arguing the difference between Rangers and Green Berets. You are arguing the difference between Rangers and Commandoes.

Oh politics plays a part, no doubt. The Inquisition loves having well equipped groups of veteran Astartes on call, although the Deathwatch does a hell of a lot more than wait around for fires to break out. However, the Deathwatch are specialists in kinds of operations they do run. Any Space Marine Chapter can do a good job running a siege, but the Imperial Fists are better at it than almost anyone else. Same with the Deathwatch and the operations the Inquisition tends to run.

I think I'm going to summon the spirit of Chris here. Royal Corp of Tree climbers.

There is literally no need to take elite marines from their standing units and create a "special" unit of elite alien hunters. The elite unit is marginally better because of their expertise, along with increased support , but the normal units are thus weakened because they lose their expertise for an unknown period of time. None of the missions the Deathwatch do cannot be replicated by normal units or other resources available to the Inquisition. Indeed, I would argue that some of the missions, such as monitoring watch outposts could be better done by stormtrooper commands and allowing the scarce, elite marines to be used elsewhere.
When one considers the cost of running the Deathwatch the way it does,(bringing in marines from the universe at large, bringing them up to date on kill teams tactics,intergrating them, using them, and then losing them after a few missions and having to do the same with NEW marines), its actually detrimental for the Deathwatch to run the way it does. Hell, I should know. The SAF now effectively has 1 year to intergrate new soldiers into units before they are redeployed to the reserves. The high turnover rate is expensive and actually detrimental to unit effectiveness, and indeed, has been one of the reasons that's used worldwide to argue AGAINST conscription due to the high turnover rate. And this is what the Deathwatch suffers from.

It gets even more amusing when the Deathwatch RPG states that some of these marines are seconded for only 1 mission. That means, all the expense you use to bring in this elite alien hunter from god knows where in the universe to this isolated watch station/fortress, you train and intergrate him into a kill team, you use him ONCE...... and he's gone.

Seriously. If the argument is that the Deathwatch spreads around anti-xeno tactics, that actually makes sense. But if the argument is that the Deathwatch is elite and can do things better than other marine chapters? I don't think so.

[OmegaChief]

Wrong. Given the Deathwatch commitments throughout the galaxy, the fact that an entire kill team, the equivalent of a squad for many watch stations, with multiple kill teams for larger fortresses, the chapter must be larger than an entire chapter. With more specialists like librarians/apothecaries than the normal chapter.
Furthermore, the equipment outlays where large amount of exotic tech rests in the watch stations suggest that there's more than enough to outfit multiple chapters. The Inquisition is clearly able to outfit an entire chapter with such wonders, the issues is outfitting all 1 thousand of them.
Furthermore, I note that you're using the rules where Marines who had returned back to their chapter are equipped with superior technology compared to their counterparts, which suggest that the Inquisition must be regularly producing such equipment if they allow Marine devastator to return with these technology.

Huh? Where'd I say the Deathwatch get to keep thier neat tech when they return? I thought it was like the arrmour thing, they paint all but a single Poulren black for the duraction of thier Deathwatch service, but re-paint it chapter colours when they leave, so likewise they hand back all the Deathwatch relics and ubertech.

No. The example I quoted did not have Cyrus involvement whatsoever.
I will note that literally nowhere in the novel was Cyrus able to provide "early" signs of nids. The first sign of the team noticing nids on Typhon for example was noted by Aramus, with the Jungle Spirits and Avitus seeing nid sign. So CLEARLY, such knowledge is relatively widespread in the Blood Raven chapter.
Cyrus contribution of specialised anti xeno knowledge was to tell militia that hey, we have hellfire rounds that can take down Nids. Sorry dudes, we have barely enough for ourselves, you guys keep your lasguns. For the EMPRAR!

Yeah. I know, worst 19 bucks I ever spent. After reading the Doom novels, I should had realised that game to novels are literally shit by now.

My bad then, I was basing it off the actual in game stuff, where Cyrus notices the signs that have confused the other squad members such as the "Shadow in the warp" as early signs of 'nid arrival and so on, my bad for assuming the novel was anything like the game there, sorry.

[Gunhead]

The one of the most important aspects of any rapid deployment force is that it's available to who ever has control over and thus can rapidly deploy it when the need arises. Inquisition has control over the deathwatch and thus knows how and where it is deployed and how much surplus force they have at their disposal against future threats. They will ask other chapters for help, but it's not sensible to assume they do so before they exhausted their own force or they are unavailable for some other reason. With the comm lag these guys have, people really have to make that extra effort to make sure the people who need to know where you are have that information and other SM chapters are not required to keep the inquisition informed about their comings and goings, not to mention in what readiness the said chapter is and other details that heavily influence one's ability to take action.

-Gunhead

That's debatable. outfitting a Kill team is stated to be the responsibility of the Watch fortress commander, the Inquisition can state their requirements but its the commander who has the marines and can outfit the team. Furthermore, there does not appear to be any centralized Inquisition database that states how many kill teams or what assets are avaiable at any fortress.

Furthermore, the need to actually have a reliable resource would actually dictate that an entire marine chapter be available for their requirements.

I guess I need to explain what readiness means. It means you first and foremost have enough people to send to do a job, then you need to have the means of getting there, staying there long enough to get the job done and the right equipment. Outfitting a kill team is a small problem compared to the first and in this case specially to the second. In this case, the readiness reported is probably always a little out of sync with reality, but it's better than no information at all.
Even this information doesn't need to be held by some single inquisitor really, but if you have to ask each fort individually what they have available and how fast can they respond increases reaction time and thus makes them less effective. The most sensible way of doing this would be to have the biggest DW fort keep a record where and what everyone is doing and have it act as a nexus that passes on orders and requests for assistance.

Are you seriously suggesting that the inquisition doesn't keep tabs on where it's most powerful fighting forces are and what they are doing? The inquisition might be very much decentralized, but that is not the same as having no centralized components to it.

I wouldn't call Deathwatch a chapter as it's organized differently and most importantly it's directly under the authority of the inquisition so that's two very major points that say it's not a chapter. In terms of size? It does seem it's a lot bigger than your average chapter, but this would be expected as they are widely dispersed.

-Gunhead

[PainRack]

Huh? Where'd I say the Deathwatch get to keep thier neat tech when they return? I thought it was like the arrmour thing, they paint all but a single Poulren black for the duraction of thier Deathwatch service, but re-paint it chapter colours when they leave, so likewise they hand back all the Deathwatch relics and ubertech.

There are rules from Chapter approved where Space Marines devastators can be designated as Deathwatch, and thus enjoy the benefits of having an autostabilised Heavy Bolter. This fluff rule was enjoyed only by vanila Space Marines.
http://www.borsoft.net/ilbastione/downl ... hwatch.pdf

I guess I need to explain what readiness means. It means you first and foremost have enough people to send to do a job, then you need to have the means of getting there, staying there long enough to get the job done and the right equipment. Outfitting a kill team is a small problem compared to the first and in this case specially to the second. In this case, the readiness reported is probably always a little out of sync with reality, but it's better than no information at all.
Even this information doesn't need to be held by some single inquisitor really, but if you have to ask each fort individually what they have available and how fast can they respond increases reaction time and thus makes them less effective. The most sensible way of doing this would be to have the biggest DW fort keep a record where and what everyone is doing and have it act as a nexus that passes on orders and requests for assistance.

Are you seriously suggesting that the inquisition doesn't keep tabs on where it's most powerful fighting forces are and what they are doing? The inquisition might be very much decentralized, but that is not the same as having no centralized components to it.

Could I clarify something? I'm questioning the argument that the Inquisition do know exactly how many Space marines there are assigned to the Deathwatch. Its stated clearly in the RPG that the Watch Commanders are the one who do know this, Given the flux of marines entering and exiting the Deathwatch, the known isolation of their stations and missions, it seems that the Inquisition extent of their knowledge is that they have a Deathwatch fortress there, and it should posess either one kill team or multiple depending on its designation.

Is there evidence to suggest that the Inquisition, not the Deathwatch per se knows the depth of information you ascribe to it?

Dark Heresy shows that even missions are decentralised, while the Conclave may know what resources has been drawn on it, there is no central database on what missions any Inquisitor, or their respective acoylte are running at any time.

[Gunhead]

Could I clarify something? I'm questioning the argument that the Inquisition do know exactly how many Space marines there are assigned to the Deathwatch. Its stated clearly in the RPG that the Watch Commanders are the one who do know this, Given the flux of marines entering and exiting the Deathwatch, the known isolation of their stations and missions, it seems that the Inquisition extent of their knowledge is that they have a Deathwatch fortress there, and it should posess either one kill team or multiple depending on its designation.

Is there evidence to suggest that the Inquisition, not the Deathwatch per se knows the depth of information you ascribe to it?

Dark Heresy shows that even missions are decentralised, while the Conclave may know what resources has been drawn on it, there is no central database on what missions any Inquisitor, or their respective acoylte are running at any time.

Tracking individual marines is the job of the watch commander and this is only relevant to him as he has to know what the forces at his disposal can or cannot do. But at the same time, he gets the order to mobilize from the Inquisition, probably from the conclave or from an inquisitor who has permission to use them and therefore has reported to the inquisition what they are ready to do.

Example: Fort reports readiness B, this means for the fort of their type they are ready to perform duties that fall under said category. Another reports readiness A, they are able to perform duties of said category which for an arguments sake is higher state of readiness. Now this level of information is all that is needed for the inquisition to know who they can dispatch to deal with a problem. This type of system would in itself give the inquisition some idea what portion of the total DW forces at their disposal are currently deployed. Otherwise they just spam help requests to forts and hope someone answers.
Now I'm not saying this is what they infact do.. my opinion on 40K common sense is fantastically low, but until proven otherwise I still believe they have methods that make sense.

Just to point out that Deathwatch are not acolytes but highly specialized forces and are called to action as needed so comparing them to normal inquisition methods and resources is misplaced.

-Gunhead

[Cykeisme]

What's the average duration of an Astartes' secondment to the Deathwatch? Isn't it something like a number of years (or decades), rather than just one or two missions?

[Black Admiral]

Depends entirely on circumstances; the usual secondment seems to be for a decade, but IA8 refers to Shadow-Captain Moron - sorry, Korvydae - being seconded to the Deathwatch for a period of two years.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm sorry, what is your point? Are you attempting to say that the establishment of the Deathwatch passed without any comment or censure later, because the Chapter masters agreed to it?
And this would not have been the case if the Inquisition had requested the creation of their own Marine chapter?

No, I'm saying the Inquisitors in question didn't have the pull to found a chapter (which is something that happens at around the High Lords of Terra level) and instead called on help from existing chapters. Censure wasn't an issue, because it's completely within their powers to request aid from the Astartes and the Astartes to grant it.

Bullshit. Blood Ravens don't have stealthed warships. Most scouts are trainees, not veterans. Most chapters don't have the Deathwatch's equipment and most chapters don't specialize in single squad deployments and operations. And Assassins, as I mentioned and you didn't address, can only be dispatched at the command of the High Lords of Terra.

The specific point in topic I was responding to was the implication that there are missions only the Deathwatch can accomplish.
That's bollocks. AGAIN, the entire scope of the missions accomplished by the Deathwatch are routinely accomplished by other Marine chapters routinely. The ONLY thing that's not within the scope is removing a governer in "secrecy", for which, the Assasins fulfill the role.

You're also hamstrung on the idea that hey, if we are to replace the Deathwatch, we MUST do everything the same way the Deathwatch does. That's like arguing that if we were to replace cavalry with tanks, then tanks must do everything the same way the horsies do.

Actually, I haven't said that. The Deathwatch are better at it because they're specialists in this field. That doesn't mean they're the only ones that can do it. Imperial Fists are masters of siege warfare, but that doesn't mean Dark Angels can't do sieges. Of course neither chapter takes orders from the Inquisition.

Furthermore, none of your points actually argue for WHY the deathwatch must be built the way it is. By simply creating their own marine chapter, the Deathwatch becomes more efficient and reliable.

I've repeatedly said the Deathwatch are like they are because of the missions they take on and because of they way they were founded. Could they have been founded differently? Of course they could. They Grey Knights were founded as their own chapter, but that's not how the Deathwatch started. Their small operations specialists, permanently at the Inquisitions disposal.

I don't know. To actually do this, why not you know... create their own Space Marine chapter?
The arguments advocated regarding politics and spreading around anti-xeno knowledge, tactics does explain why the Deathwatch works the way it does. Yours, that the Deathwatch is "unique" in its role and thus require taking veteran, alien hunters from other chapters to do their missions best is nonsense.

I just told you the origins of the Deathwatch. Did you not fucking read it? The Deathwatch are the way they are because of the circumstances of their founding, not because it couldn't be done any other way.

Capture, information, deep infiltration, intelligence gathering missions ARE normal work for most Marine chapters. They're routine work for scouts. The rules also establish traits where Space Marines rely on normal marines to do such work, giving them the ability to infiltrate like scouts.

Large scale combat is the primary work of most chapters. Small scale single squad work is the Deathwatch's specialty and they're equipped with gear, including stealth ships, that is optimized for this work. Can other Chapters do the job? Yes. Can they do it as well? No. They aren't specialized in the work.

Again. I will once again note that there is literally nothing special about the Deathwatch training as detailed in the RPG. What they have is that they have specialised knowledge.

Furthermore, if the Marines can do these missions, why do you need a special unit? You're aren't arguing the difference between Rangers and Green Berets. You are arguing the difference between Rangers and Commandoes.

Well, the first isn't true. The Deathwatch has more and specialized resources for its training. The second is that the Deathwatch serves the Inquisition in a specific capacity. The Inquisition has no problems throwing endless bodies of troops at problems that require armies. The Deathwatch are exclusively for smaller operations and train just for those operations. Time that other chapters spend practicing large scale assaults, orbital drops, siege tactics, etcetera is time the Deathwatch uses for small operations training. They're also always available instead of having to beg for favors from the nearest Chapter Master.

There is literally no need to take elite marines from their standing units and create a "special" unit of elite alien hunters. The elite unit is marginally better because of their expertise, along with increased support , but the normal units are thus weakened because they lose their expertise for an unknown period of time.

Not really. Astartes send their volunteers on their schedule and its rarely more than a few guys at a time from any chapter. The overall chapter isn't significantly weakened.

None of the missions the Deathwatch do cannot be replicated by normal units or other resources available to the Inquisition. Indeed, I would argue that some of the missions, such as monitoring watch outposts could be better done by stormtrooper commands and allowing the scarce, elite marines to be used elsewhere.

Absolutely. This is the usual case of 40K feudal institution creep, which has happened a lot with the Deathwatch. They guard a lot of terrible weapons and knowledge, and much of it is shrouded in secrecy even from other parts of the Inquisition. Like much of the Imperium, it could make much better use of its resources.

When one considers the cost of running the Deathwatch the way it does,(bringing in marines from the universe at large, bringing them up to date on kill teams tactics,intergrating them, using them, and then losing them after a few missions and having to do the same with NEW marines), its actually detrimental for the Deathwatch to run the way it does. Hell, I should know. The SAF now effectively has 1 year to intergrate new soldiers into units before they are redeployed to the reserves. The high turnover rate is expensive and actually detrimental to unit effectiveness, and indeed, has been one of the reasons that's used worldwide to argue AGAINST conscription due to the high turnover rate. And this is what the Deathwatch suffers from.

Since the Marines live for centuries and tend to serve in the Deathwatch for decades, its a smaller issue, but the Imperium is rife with inefficiencies of all kinds. Compared to the giant resource vacuum of the Ecclesiarchy, the Deathwatch is a model of spartan efficiency.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Isn't the DoW II novel considered non-cannon, even by Relic? I've only ever heard about stuff from it second hand, but IIRC none of the stuff from it actually pans out with what we know happened given events in the expansions.

My point is that from what we see in the game, only Cyrus with his DW experience seems to recognize the Tyranid threat for what it is (well maybe with the exception of Thule). My bet would also be with spreading experience and knowledge around for one of the major reasons of having the Death Watch. I believe one of the fluff bits from DoW II said that Cyrus's unconventional (by SM standards) tactics tended to earn him scorn by other Blood Ravens, but attracted the interest of the Death Watch. The distinction of having served with the DW seems to have bought him some credibility with the other marines in the chapters as he stays a scout sergeant well past when he'd be expected to move on and is given the transfer to Thule's command instead of being forced to change. I believe there is even a quote attributed to Thule that says Cyrus is basically reshaping the Chapter one batch of initiates at a time. It would seem that if anything the Death Watch serves as a means of introducing, or at least forcing acknowledgment, of different approaches into the various Astartes Chapters which keeps them from stagnating. The fact that it's voluntary allows the IoM to force these changes through (albeit stealthily), something no power short of the Emperor could achieve otherwise, and thus gives a decent reason to keep it around.

[PainRack]

No, I'm saying the Inquisitors in question didn't have the pull to found a chapter (which is something that happens at around the High Lords of Terra level) and instead called on help from existing chapters. Censure wasn't an issue, because it's completely within their powers to request aid from the Astartes and the Astartes to grant it.

I see. I will note that we're discussing different topics then. I'm inquiring as to why the Deathwatch as it is now would be a better choice than forming their own chapter or relying on existing chapters.

The specific point in topic I was responding to was the implication that there are missions only the Deathwatch can accomplish.
That's bollocks. AGAIN, the entire scope of the missions accomplished by the Deathwatch are routinely accomplished by other Marine chapters routinely. The ONLY thing that's not within the scope is removing a governer in "secrecy", for which, the Assasins fulfill the role.

You're also hamstrung on the idea that hey, if we are to replace the Deathwatch, we MUST do everything the same way the Deathwatch does. That's like arguing that if we were to replace cavalry with tanks, then tanks must do everything the same way the horsies do.

Actually, I haven't said that. The Deathwatch are better at it because they're specialists in this field. That doesn't mean they're the only ones that can do it. Imperial Fists are masters of siege warfare, but that doesn't mean Dark Angels can't do sieges. Of course neither chapter takes orders from the Inquisition.

I know you didn't say that.
Zinegata did. However, you responded to the counterpoint regarding Space Marines missions and assasins, hence, my continued elaboration along those lines.

I just told you the origins of the Deathwatch. Did you not fucking read it? The Deathwatch are the way they are because of the circumstances of their founding, not because it couldn't be done any other way.

And........ you seem to have missed my OP where I specifically asked if there was any reason why the Deathwatch should be done this way instead of another. You know, looking for any benefits, because "ideally", the Inquisition isn't formed up of fools wholesale.

Large scale combat is the primary work of most chapters. Small scale single squad work is the Deathwatch's specialty and they're equipped with gear, including stealth ships, that is optimized for this work. Can other Chapters do the job? Yes. Can they do it as well? No. They aren't specialized in the work.

You KEEP insisting that other chapters would not be able to do the job as well as the Deathwatch. Ok. Prove it. The Soul Drinkers did just as well as the Deathwatch in Scourge the Heretic in boarding a space station. Better actually, considering the resistance they faced. I pointed you to various other missions that other chapters have done. Again, the Chaos Space Marine codex pointed out that a single squad of marines were detached to hunt down genestealers and they succeeded without heavy losses. Space Hulk establish that single squads of terminators have no problems with boarding such derelict warships and subsequent canon/fluff has established that non terminator units do this as well. I again refer you to DOW II novelisation where Tarkus lone squad did this and eliminated "presumably" the Norn queen. Considering that Space Hulk missions may centralise around the recovery of sacred relics....
I also hesitate to place this because IIRC, the canon has been retconned, but Ultramarines were responsible for the initial capture of the Tyranid creatures that allowed the identiifcation of synapse creatures in 3rd Edition Codex Tyrannid.

Well, the first isn't true. The Deathwatch has more and specialized resources for its training.

Prove it. The basic RPG rulebook simply states that they do small scale tactics against the Xenos and they may engage in man on man fights against captured specimens. Or hunt down captured specimens. Nothing special whatsoever.

Not really. Astartes send their volunteers on their schedule and its rarely more than a few guys at a time from any chapter. The overall chapter isn't significantly weakened.

A significant portion of the Deathwatch are supposed to comprise of Crimson Fist, Ultramarines, Storm Wardens or other named chapters. Given the size of the Deathwatch, that means more than just a few.

Furthermore, note the expertise required. Watch commanders are elite veterans, who could had served as captains in their regular chapters. That 1 out of 9 such elite personnel detached to the Deathwatch right there.

Since the Marines live for centuries and tend to serve in the Deathwatch for decades, its a smaller issue, but the Imperium is rife with inefficiencies of all kinds. Compared to the giant resource vacuum of the Ecclesiarchy, the Deathwatch is a model of spartan efficiency.

Which doesn't answer the basic question, does it? Again. What benefits do the Deathwatch, in its current incarnation offer than simply forming a new chapter or relying on others?

The answer spreading of insitutional knowledge and tactics certainly is a workable one, on top of politics regarding direct control of a marine chapter.

Isn't the DoW II novel considered non-cannon, even by Relic? I've only ever heard about stuff from it second hand, but IIRC none of the stuff from it actually pans out with what we know happened given events in the expansions.

It doesn't. Typhon, Aurelia is destroyed, Tarkus is "lost", presumably dead. Meridean is now under siege by the Tyrannid Hive fleet.

That's on top of other details such as Thaddeus and Aramus origins as Meridiean recruits and etc.

[Whiskey144]

Zinegata did. However, you responded to the counterpoint regarding Space Marines missions and assasins, hence, my continued elaboration along those lines.

The main problem with suggesting "send an Assassin" is that, as has been repeatedly said, Assassins are only deployed by order of the High Lords of Terra- IE not very often.

The Soul Drinkers did just as well as the Deathwatch in Scourge the Heretic in boarding a space station.

I happen to own that book, and can tell you very well that it was the Deathwatch that boarded the station- NOT the Soul Drinkers.

Prove it. The basic RPG rulebook simply states that they do small scale tactics against the Xenos and they may engage in man on man fights against captured specimens. Or hunt down captured specimens. Nothing special whatsoever.

Very special actually, considering that the Deathwatch has long been established as doing capture missions of xeno species. Most notably, in Warriors of Ultramar, a Deathwatch killteam is tasked to capture a Lictor when evidence of its existence (and preying on Imperial citizens/military) is established.

Average Astartes chapters never engage in capture missions against xeno species- they simply kill aliens.

A significant portion of the Deathwatch are supposed to comprise of Crimson Fist, Ultramarines, Storm Wardens or other named chapters. Given the size of the Deathwatch, that means more than just a few.

IIRC, Connor has used such to argue that this is a way that the chapters can go overstrength without being overstrength; IE Marines seconded to the Deathwatch are not counted- while the roles those Marines would fill are filled in with other Astartes.

Furthermore, note the expertise required. Watch commanders are elite veterans, who could had served as captains in their regular chapters. That 1 out of 9 such elite personnel detached to the Deathwatch right there.

I believe you mean "1 out of 10", as Scout companies do have full-Astartes captains, who simply do not deploy (often, at least).

Which doesn't answer the basic question, does it? Again. What benefits do the Deathwatch, in its current incarnation offer than simply forming a new chapter or relying on others?

From a general perspective, the Deathwatch is far more streamlined for small-scale operations- among which are capture missions, which are most assuredly not trained for in most (I'd almost say all) Astartes chapters. Given that the only other example we've got to work with- that of the Grey Knights/Ordo Malleus system- is far, far older than Ordo Xenos and the Deathwatch, and the fact that the Grey Knights are super-high-top-secret, Ordo Xenos being given an Astartes chapter to more-or-less "boss around" would be highly unusual- and might even trigger several secessions from the Imperium (mostly other Astartes chapters).

Simply relying on others is also difficult; the Marine chapters are sovereign groups, answerable only to the High Lords, and barely to the Inquisition. It's well established that the Marines can pretty much flip the bird to the Inquisitors (IA4- Commander Culln leaves Inquisitor Lok to die on Beta Anphelion IV); if the Inquisition needs something done, and the only chapter nearby is a very, very unfriendly one- looks like nothing gets done.

I'll further note that the Deathwatch places groups of Astartes into the Inquisitorial chain of command, however fractured it may be; rather than the Inquisitors requesting aid of local Marine chapters, they simply order a killteam to deal with [insert xeno-centric problem]. That's a lot of response time and fractiousness cut out of the command chain right there.

It doesn't. Typhon, Aurelia is destroyed, Tarkus is "lost", presumably dead. Meridean is now under siege by the Tyrannid Hive fleet.

Spoiler

Avitus is the Chaos traitor, Tarkus "vanishes" but is really this silent Marine who goes by "The Ancient", Aurelia isn't destroyed

That's on top of other details such as Thaddeus and Aramus origins as Meridiean recruits and etc.

Who's Aramus? I know that there's the more-or-less unnamed Force Commander, and sergeants Tarkus, Cyrus, Avitus, and Thaddeus- plus good ol' Davian Cool, but who's this Aramus dude?

[PainRack]

The main problem with suggesting "send an Assassin" is that, as has been repeatedly said, Assassins are only deployed by order of the High Lords of Terra- IE not very often.

So????? AGAIN. Space Marines KILL enemy leaders/governors ALL THE TIME. The subset of missions that's so elaborate that you can't call on a space marine to do that is when you call on an assasin. As such, THAT same subset of mission that's so elaborate that the Deathwatch can do but the Space Marine can't, is when you can call on the assets of the Assasin.

I happen to own that book, and can tell you very well that it was the Deathwatch that boarded the station- NOT the Soul Drinkers.

I know...... I said the Soul Drinkers boarding efforts were JUST as effective as that seen in Scoure the Heretic. Seriously. Compare Soul Drinkers boarding effort to reclaim their Soulspear to that of the Deathwatch reclaimation. What was the so called "improved" effectiveness?

Very special actually, considering that the Deathwatch has long been established as doing capture missions of xeno species. Most notably, in Warriors of Ultramar, a Deathwatch killteam is tasked to capture a Lictor when evidence of its existence (and preying on Imperial citizens/military) is established.

So? WHERE THE FUCK IS THIS SPECIALISED TRAINING?

Average Astartes chapters never engage in capture missions against xeno species- they simply kill aliens.

And the answer is no. I already pointed out in 3rd edition, they DID do that.

IIRC, Connor has used such to argue that this is a way that the chapters can go overstrength without being overstrength; IE Marines seconded to the Deathwatch are not counted- while the roles those Marines would fill are filled in with other Astartes.

And? It STILL won't distract from my point that you're significantly weakening the original chapter by taking away a portion of their most elite troops.

I believe you mean "1 out of 10", as Scout companies do have full-Astartes captains, who simply do not deploy (often, at least).

I deliberately ignored the Scout Company here. We have not seen a Scout Company captain take the field. Even if we were to include him, it won't change the fact that you're drawing heavily on the elite cadre of the Space Marine chapters to man the at least hundreds of Watch stations out there.

From a general perspective, the Deathwatch is far more streamlined for small-scale operations- among which are capture missions, which are most assuredly not trained for in most (I'd almost say all) Astartes chapters.

And you're ignoring all evidence to the contary.

Who's Aramus? I know that there's the more-or-less unnamed Force Commander, and sergeants Tarkus, Cyrus, Avitus, and Thaddeus- plus good ol' Davian Cool, but who's this Aramus dude?

You know. Your NAMED Force Commander dude in the Dawn Of War 2 novelisation.

[Zinegata]

Space Marines have been known to kill rogue individuals such as governors. However, they are not exactly doing this via the small-unit assassination route on a regular basis. More often than not they actually employ considerable forces in a conventional assault.

For instance, the initial battle of the Taros campaign was an "assassination" mission against the Imperial Governor, which had betrayed the Imperium and was actively trading with the Tau. The mission involved multiple Astartes squads (the better part of a company), a squad of Terminators, and two Venerable Dreadnoughts. That's totally not the same as sending an Imperial Assassin against the governor. It's an all-out ground assault that just happens to have "Kill Imperial Governor" as one of the mission objectives.

Again, just because individual Blood Raven squads and some rules allow single Space Marine squads to go rambo on enemy XYZ doesn't mean that individual squad deployments are the norm. There is an enormous difference between "can do it" and "do it as the norm." Seriously. Check out the 40K fluff. When Space Marines deploy, they generally deploy enmasse - usually counting the number of companies involved in a campaign.

Moreover, whining about how "Souldrinkers are just as awesome as DW in this book!" or "Blood Ravens are so awesome in small unit actions!" is pretty frakking useless. 40K fluff is full of instances where the fighting value of a unit changes drastically from one story to the next. Necrons could go from unstoppable killing machines in one story, to being beaten to death by a ramshackle Ork Gargant in another. You could have 300 Grey Knights be massacred at the start of one novel, and have them killing greater Daemons one on one in their Codex. Hell, Gaunt's Ghosts perform multiple squad-level assassination missions over the course of the Sabbat Worlds Crusades without having to lug a pair of Dreadnoughts along, and unlike the Marines at Taros they succeeded in all of their assassination missions. Should we disband the Astartes and rely entirely on IG because Gaunt's Ghosts > Marines in assassinations?

What's important is what we see units do the majority of the time - and again Space Marines generally do not deploy in single squads. The Deathwatch do. That's why it's their specialty.

-----

And again, the Deathwatch offers an opportunity for much more individual tactical thinking without having to be restricted to a Chapter's rigid codes. An Ultramarine for instance can try out some tactics that isn't in the Codex without getting sanctioned. A Deathwatch squad very likely is the Imperium's best squad-level unit, as the DW almost never deploys in a configuration other than the squad.

Finally, it also allows different marines with different specializations to work together. Does the mission require you to use a Rhino for long-distance ground travel? Add a White Scar to the Deathwatch team. A regular Marine may be a great driver, but a White Scar will probably be better at it because that's a huge part of their Chapter's training.

[Dwelf]

What's important is what we see units do the majority of the time - and again Space Marines generally do not deploy in single squads. The Deathwatch do. That's why it's their specialty.

Single squad deployment is the specialty of deathwatch but it explains nothing about why they are a collection of marines composed from multiple chapters rather than a chapter that specialises in single squad deployments.

And again, the Deathwatch offers an opportunity for much more individual tactical thinking without having to be restricted to a Chapter's rigid codes. An Ultramarine for instance can try out some tactics that isn't in the Codex without getting sanctioned. A Deathwatch squad very likely is the Imperium's best squad-level unit, as the DW almost never deploys in a configuration other than the squad.

Finally, it also allows different marines with different specializations to work together. Does the mission require you to use a Rhino for long-distance ground travel? Add a White Scar to the Deathwatch team. A regular Marine may be a great driver, but a White Scar will probably be better at it because that's a huge part of their Chapter's training.

This sounds like your looking at this from the marine point of view.
I just don't see the inquisitors tabling this idea for those reasons.
Allowing marines to try out some new tactics without getting sanctioned. Sure you could look at it that way but to me it seems more like providing them with enough rope to hang themselves.
Mixing chapters provides valuable diversity of skills. Maybe or it mixes possibly disloyal marines with loyal marines increasing the chances of outing them.

If you need a driver in a deathwatch team sure you'd take a White Scar IF there was one at the closest fortress. I highly doubt you would delay a mission months or possibly years just to get a White Scar driver. Having optimised skill sets available to the Deathwatch is a on paper idea. Logistics means that the marines are most probably going to be serving from a fortress near where their chapter is so the vast majority of the time you are not going to be able to get that specialist you want even if there is a chapter that has it. The galaxy is a big place and travel is slow and unreliable.

[PainRack]

Space Marines have been known to kill rogue individuals such as governors. However, they are not exactly doing this via the small-unit assassination route on a regular basis. More often than not they actually employ considerable forces in a conventional assault.

For instance, the initial battle of the Taros campaign was an "assassination" mission against the Imperial Governor, which had betrayed the Imperium and was actively trading with the Tau. The mission involved multiple Astartes squads (the better part of a company), a squad of Terminators, and two Venerable Dreadnoughts. That's totally not the same as sending an Imperial Assassin against the governor. It's an all-out ground assault that just happens to have "Kill Imperial Governor" as one of the mission objectives.

So....... your point being? I quote from the Deathwatch rulebook.
An especially dangerous type of mission is a targeted assasination. The objective of such a mission is to kill a specific alien being, with the intention of disrupting the activities of its subordinates so much that the other Imperial forces need simply pop up.

That's standard Space Marines tactic right there and then.

Again, just because individual Blood Raven squads and some rules allow single Space Marine squads to go rambo on enemy XYZ doesn't mean that individual squad deployments are the norm. There is an enormous difference between "can do it" and "do it as the norm." Seriously. Check out the 40K fluff. When Space Marines deploy, they generally deploy enmasse - usually counting the number of companies involved in a campaign.

You're seriously confusing the difference between mission/roles and tactics. And ignoring evidence to the contary.
I have posted MULTIPLE examples of incidents where the Space Marines DO fight in single squad deployment and the like, even for campaigns. I HAVE checked out the fluff. First of all, its stated that while the Chapter Master is the one to designate and release multiple companies to fight major campaigns/crusades, there also exist another spectrum of missions where only a single company is used. And a company detach squads to do said missions.
I already shown multiple examples of this. What else? Let the Galaxy burn anthrology had MUTIPLE stories where there were only several or single space marine squads deployed. Only the Lamentors deployed at anything larger than company strength against the Tyrannids. Black Templar? Multiple squads. Ultramarines? Single squad. Unknown Angels that saved a medieval hick village? Single squad, at best, several squads based on multiple drop pods landing.
What else? Armaggadeon campaign. What was the mission profile? 2 squads of Space Marines to hold a single vital bridgehead against the Ork horde. They divided and single squad held off first a gretchin mob, then a divided ork mob, before the final mission where the two squads unite to face off multiple Goff Orks supported by a Dreadnought. So, that's it for tactics.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU argued that the Deathwatch does these missions BETTER than normal space marines. WHY? I have posted multiple incidents and fluff which show that this SHOULDN"T be the case at all. The Deathwatch is only superior because of its superior equipment and insitutional knowledge.
BOTH of which would STILL have been the same if the Inquisition had created their own Marine Chapter or imbued more specialised knowledge to others. Again, the missions that are done don't differ from normal space marine missions!

Moreover, whining about how "Souldrinkers are just as awesome as DW in this book!" or "Blood Ravens are so awesome in small unit actions!" is pretty frakking useless.

Fuck off. You're the one who insisted that Deathwatch marines are SUPERIOR or can do missions that normal space marines can't. Prove it,

I quote again from the Deathwatch rulebook.

One of the simplest, yet arguably the most taxing, duties of the Deathwatch is to stand eternal vigil against the actions of the xenos.

Eye of Terror, 11 Marine chapters.

Investigation of potential threats is a vital task of the Deathwatch.
Individual Kill-teams are often called upon to perform sweeps of
areas in which dangerous aliens are suspected of operating. Newly
discovered worlds, visited by Explorators or Rogue Traders may
be judged as dangerous, and require a Deathwatch investigation,
sometimes accompanied by an Inquisitor or other specialists

Black Templar does that. Along with the White Scars when they deployed in support of the Damocles.

A ‘cleanse’ mission is one in which the Deathwatch face a
known enemy, perhaps one observed earlier by an investigation
team. The objective is to clear a given area, planet or entire system
of the alien presence. It may be that the Imperium has decided to
establish some sort of presence in the area, which must be made
safe of threats, or it may be that a full-scale colonisation is to be
undertaken. In general, the Deathwatch only becomes involved in
such missions when the nature of the enemy is such that Imperial
Guard or conventional Space Marine forces lack the expertise
required, which in the case of the Adeptus Astartes indicates a
dire threat indeed. The Deathwatch may have special skills against
such a threat, or have extensive experience combating it, which
might be lacking in other available units. Cleanse missions vary
enormously in scale, from a simple attack on an alien-held location
to a gruelling campaign against an entire alien species.

This is the BREAD and butter of Space Marines. Note that their only explaination is that the Deathwatch is better...... because they have unspecificed special skills or extensive experience.

An especially dangerous type of mission is a targeted
assassination. The objective of such a mission is to kill a specific
alien being, with the intention of disrupting the activities of its
subordinates so much that other Imperial forces need simply pop
up. Such missions are considered amongst the most dangerous of
all the tasks the Deathwatch must perform, and a balance must
be struck between the risk of losing the extremely experienced
and valuable Deathwatch warriors, and not undertaking the
mission at all. Despite the potential risks, there are many alien
species against which such a mission can prove extremely
effective. Tyranids for example, are known to exhibit the most
extreme hierarchical structure ever observed, progressively higher
forms of life controlling each tier below. It appears that even the
highest forms do not issue orders, but rather direct the will of the
collective, thus killing such a creature can have a highly disruptive
effect upon those lower down. Several of this type of mission
were successfully prosecuted during the war against hive fleet
Behemoth, in which small, elite Deathwatch Kill-teams boarded
Tyranid bio-ships, fought their way not through passageways,
but arteries, and killed the organisms controlling entire fleets.

I will note that Tarkus, Space Marine Scouts, Ultramarines have ALL done this before. Tarkus in particular boarded said Hive fleet with a single understrength squad.

A less common, but potentially vital mission profile is the
location and recovery of alien artefacts.

Again. Bread and butter for space marines. Note that the deathwatch doesn't actually conduct the investigation. It supports the Inquisition team that's doing the investigation, providing the muscle so as to speak.

One of the more onerous duties sometimes performed by the
Deathwatch is that of ‘sanitising’ human forces exposed to alien
contamination

Marine Malovent anyone?

While the vast majority of the missions the Deathwatch
performs are undertaken alone, far from witnesses, they
sometimes form part of a larger, strategic picture. It might be,
for example, that a massive push by the Imperial Guard is only
made possible because a Deathwatch Kill-team disabled the
enemy’s high command structure, sending the entire xenos
army into disarray

Again. CLASSIC Space Marine actions.


So, apart from "cleanse mission", because only the Inquisition knows how to fight against some special xenos threat that nobody else knows about... just what is so special about the Deathwatch? This ignroes the fact that Space Marines are adaptable. Dante and his missions against the Necrons/Nid threat.

Show where is the Deathwatch so fundamentally different a warfighting machine that normal Space Marines can't do their roles/missions. Their only difference is that they cannot deploy at company strength and larger, and I have shown more than adequately that Space Marines routinely do deploy at similar force strength.

[Black Admiral]

For instance, the initial battle of the Taros campaign was an "assassination" mission against the Imperial Governor, which had betrayed the Imperium and was actively trading with the Tau. The mission involved multiple Astartes squads (the better part of a company), a squad of Terminators, and two Venerable Dreadnoughts. That's totally not the same as sending an Imperial Assassin against the governor. It's an all-out ground assault that just happens to have "Kill Imperial Governor" as one of the mission objectives.

Yes, one of the objectives of the Avenging Sons strike force on Taros was offing the planetary governor. What it was not, however, was the end goal of the mission but a means to an end - specifically, bringing Taros back under Imperial rule, and demonstrating to the Tau that the Imperium both could and would fight for the place. Captain Amaros was entirely prepared to start flattening chunks of the capital city with the Proxima Justus' bombardment cannon in order to achieve those objectives; at the point where orbital strikes are on the table it strikes me that "assassination" has long since departed the mission type description.

Also, the Avenging Sons deployed an entire company (their 2nd Company) during the Taros Intervention, albeit given the nature of the operation one surprisingly light on aviation assets (one wonders how they were planning to handle extraction after full deployment, given needing six lifts to deploy or extract their vehicles).

Eye of Terror, 11 Marine chapters.

Actually, the Adeptus Praeses Chapters are 18 strong - 20 if the excommunicated Relictors and destroyed Black Consuls are counted. The known ones are;
Black Consuls (destroyed)
Excoriators
Marines Exemplar
Night Watch
Relictors (excommunicated and mostly destroyed)
Subjugators
White Consuls
Iron Talons
Brothers Penitent
Knights Unyielding
Crimson Scythes

[PainRack]

Yes, one of the objectives of the Avenging Sons strike force on Taros was offing the planetary governor. What it was not, however, was the end goal of the mission but a means to an end - specifically, bringing Taros back under Imperial rule, and demonstrating to the Tau that the Imperium both could and would fight for the place. Captain Amaros was entirely prepared to start flattening chunks of the capital city with the Proxima Justus' bombardment cannon in order to achieve those objectives; at the point where orbital strikes are on the table it strikes me that "assassination" has long since departed the mission type description.

Also, the Avenging Sons deployed an entire company (their 2nd Company) during the Taros Intervention, albeit given the nature of the operation one surprisingly light on aviation assets (one wonders how they were planning to handle extraction after full deployment, given needing six lifts to deploy or extract their vehicles).

The purposes of a deathwatch assasination is to eliminate the command structure so that Imperial forces can mop up. I would argue that this is what the Avenging sons did. The difference rests in scale.

Actually, the Adeptus Praeses Chapters are 18 strong - 20 if the excommunicated Relictors and destroyed Black Consuls are counted. The known ones are;

Ah, I see. My mistake. Thank you.

[Imperial Overlord]

The plural of anecdote is not data. That in one or two incidents a squad from one chapter does better than a Deathwatch squad is fairly meaningless, especially when you don't control for the compositions of the squads. I'm fairly sure that a Blood Angels squad lead by the Mephiston, Lord of Death can outperform almost any squad from any chapter (except perhaps one lead by another main character). We're talking about groups of Astartes. Everyone performs at a very high level.

Page 304 of the Deathwatch rulebook outright states that they're superior to ordinary Marines in their field of expertise. Pages 309-310 deal with the selection process, which again marks them as being among the best Marines in a Chapter. 311-312 Deals with special training and equipment.

[Talk738kno]

Marines selected for the Deathwatch aren't all from the 1st company of the chapter though.

[Elessar]

IO makes it quite clear that the Deathwatch are superior to ordinary marines (for Xenos purging purposes). Whatever the reason for that, the Inquisition stands only to gain by not having to deal with Chapter politics that are bound to occur with a standard Space Marine chapter.

Furthermore, unlike the Grey Knights, the Deathwatch do not differ from your standard Space Marine, thus it makes sense to draw from a pool of existing Marines instead of forming your own and going with the overhead that Chapter Masters regularly go through in order to maintain fighting strength.

So I'd like to turn the question around: why would the Ordos Xenos want a regular Space Marine chapter (or even a number of them) in place of the Deathwatch?

[Dwelf]

IO makes it quite clear that the Deathwatch are superior to ordinary marines (for Xenos purging purposes). Whatever the reason for that, the Inquisition stands only to gain by not having to deal with Chapter politics that are bound to occur with a standard Space Marine chapter.

Furthermore, unlike the Grey Knights, the Deathwatch do not differ from your standard Space Marine, thus it makes sense to draw from a pool of existing Marines instead of forming your own and going with the overhead that Chapter Masters regularly go through in order to maintain fighting strength.

So I'd like to turn the question around: why would the Ordos Xenos want a regular Space Marine chapter (or even a number of them) in place of the Deathwatch?

If we can recruit from Normal Marines provide them with special training and enhanced equipment we get Deathwatch marines. It then would stand to reason that I can get a Deathwatch marine by taking an initiate turining them into a Normal Marine then giving them special training and enhanced equipment. If the only goal is a force of marines dedicated to the support of the Ordo Xenos then sure a chapter should work just fine. It is possibly an even better choice since you get the chance to indoctrinate the recruits while they are still impressionable.

If I need to season my recruits before they get their special training then you send them out for tours with other more conventional chapters. If they agreed to donate marines I'm sure they would agree to being given a few extra marines for a while.

If I also wanted to score points with the Ordo Hereticus/Malleus then I'd take the existing deathwatch layout.