Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by Thanas »

Fifty years ago, the communist dictatorship decided to wall itself in, thereby denying its citizens even further freedoms and causing the death of hundreds, potentially thousands of people who were shot dead at the wall while trying to escape into the west.

Jerzy Buzek today said that “the Berlin Wall was Europe’s nightmare for more than 28 years. It symbolised the division of our continent and the contempt and violation of basic human rights”. Christian Wulff delivered a very moving and excellent speech today as well - sadly only available in German.

The effects of that division are felt even today in Germany.

BERLIN—Berlin on Saturday marked the 50th anniversary of the day the Berlin Wall started to go up with a memorial service and a minute of silence in memory of those who died trying to flee to the West.

German President Christian Wulff, Chancellor Angela Merkel, who grew up in the East, and Berlin mayor Klaus Wowereit attended a nationally televised commemoration followed by a ecumenical church service at a chapel built where the Wall stood for 28 years.

Flags flew at half mast on the Reichstag (parliament) and church bells tolled at noon as Germans were called to observe a minute of silence in remembrance of the 136 people who are known to have died in Berlin between 1961 and 1989 while trying to cross the Wall.

Overall figures of those killed while attempting to flee from East to West Germany stand at between 600 and 700.

“No one knows the true figure,” Wulff told those attending the commemoration in Berlin’s Bernauer Strasse, the scene of many escape attempts which today houses a memorial visited by half a million people every year.

“We bow our heads in remembrance of all who died at the Wall and of the hundreds who died on the inner German border,” he said.

“The dead and wounded, the hundreds of thousands who were imprisoned and politically harassed aren’t the only victims of this Wall.

“Millions were also forced to renounce the lives they wanted to live,” he added.

“The Wall was part of a dictatorial system, an unjust state,” Wowereit said for his part.

“It illustrated the bankruptcy of a system people wanted out of.

“The Wall is now history, but it must not be forgotten.

“It is our responsibility to keep its memory alive and pass it on to future generations … so that such injustices never repeat themselves,” he added.

At noon, Berlin’s buses and trains stopped for three minutes while local radio stations interrupted their programs.

The commemorations began overnight at a chapel on the former death strip with a more than seven-hour-long reading of the names and stories of those killed seeking freedom.

These included Ida Siekmann, 58, the first known Berlin Wall victim who fell to her death when jumping to the West from the third storey of a building on August 22, 1961.

And Chris Gueffroy, 20, the last victim, shot dead on February 6, 1989 — nine months before the Wall fell — while trying to swim across a canal.

The Wall was born in the early hours of Sunday August 13, 1961, a day chosen by East German authorities as that most likely to catch people by surprise as they enjoyed a summer day off.

In a secret operation code-named “Rose”, tens of thousands of East German soldiers and factory militiamen were called out to cut off the Soviet-occupied eastern sector from the western part of the city, occupied by US, British and French forces since the end of World War II.

The Wall, known in the East as the “anti-fascist protection wall”, was set up to stop the exodus of East Germans who found it easy to cross into West Berlin and then fly on to the West rather than attempt to cross the inter-German border farther afield.

In 1961, more than 2.5 million of East Germany’s 19 million inhabitants had already voted with their feet by going West and, with up to 3,000 leaving every day, communist authorities feared the mass flight would bleed the state dry.

Soldiers blocked off the streets, cut off rail links, and began building a wall of barbed wire and cemented paving stones which over the years, in Berlin, grew in height and complexity over 155 kilometers (96 miles).

Today much of the Wall has disappeared with only small portions, totalling about three kilometers, remaining.

Sections still standing, where numerous wreaths were laid on Saturday, are now being restored and listed for historical preservation.

For days, German newspapers and television channels have been marking the upcoming anniversary with interviews of people who tried to cross the Wall and programs and documentaries about its history.
I find it interesting that Wowereit called it an "Unrechtsstaat" (criminal state) and how that will resonate with the leader of his coalition partner, Die Linke, once more showing her true face by calling the Wall a "logical consequence of the German attack on the Soviet Union" and rightfully getting blasted in the German press.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by Sidewinder »

Who or what are Wowereit and Die Linke? A politician and a newspaper?
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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Sidewinder wrote:Who or what are Wowereit and Die Linke? A politician and a newspaper?
Wowereit is the mayor of Berlin, Die linke is the Ex-ruling party of the GDR which currently tries to capitalize on anti-capitalism sentiment.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by Serafina »

To be fair, it WAS logical - from the point of view of a police state who doesn't care about human rights. So it was logical as the Holocaust was logical from the point of view of a genocidal monster.

Yet another reason i would never vote for the Linke, not even in protest, despite agreeing with them on quite a few policies.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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Serafina wrote:To be fair, it WAS logical - from the point of view of a police state who doesn't care about human rights. So it was logical as the Holocaust was logical from the point of view of a genocidal monster.
No, that is not what she is saying. She is saying the wall was a logical consequence of the German attack on the Soviet Union. In other words, the Nazis are to blame, not the commies.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by JME2 »

Thanas wrote:
Serafina wrote:To be fair, it WAS logical - from the point of view of a police state who doesn't care about human rights. So it was logical as the Holocaust was logical from the point of view of a genocidal monster.
No, that is not what she is saying. She is saying the wall was a logical consequence of the German attack on the Soviet Union. In other words, the Nazis are to blame, not the commies.
From an abstract, historical perspective, you could argue the Berlin occupation wouldn't have come about if Hitler hadn't decided to back-stab Stalin and invade.

Ultimately, however, the Soviets bear full responsibility for the Wall and all the crimes and horrors associated with it.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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I am very glad that the 50th anniversary of the Berlin Wall sees only scattered fragments of it still standing. In 1989 I was shocked to see it come down, until it happened I did not expect to see that in my lifetime.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by K. A. Pital »

The Linke are idiots for saying the Wall was a consequence of German attack on the USSR. These are completely disconnected events (if only tangentially related - if Germany didn't behave like it did with the East). Russia should repay those who suffered from the Wall, actually - it was the USSR which was instrumental to its creation. Just like Germany paid Russia reparations for WWII. Except, of course, the scope of reparations would be much, much smaller due to the enormously smaller number of victims.

However, to say that the DDR was an
"Unrechtsstaat" (criminal state)
simply because several hundred Germans died is preposterous. The concept of Unrechtstaat was invented to absolve Germany and Germans for the responsibilities that lie with the Nazis (similar to the "totalitarian" bullcrap that people spew to absolve Russia/USSR for its own misdeeds - Russia should accept full responsibility for Soviet actions and if someone calls it on them, should say YES WE DID THAT, not "we're basically not the USSR!"). If you call the DDR, undeniably a dictatorship, an Unrechtstaat just like Nazi Germany, you're basically saying that killing a few hundred tresspassers and putting several thousand dissenters in prison is equivalent to dozens of millions slaughtered by Nazi Germany in Yugoslavia, Poland, USSR. That is definetely bollocks.

What Europe can't get their collective head around, though, is that the USSR - an underdeveloped brutal dictatorship consisting of "savages" as the fascists and Nazis painted them - did in fact respond with savagery towards European nations. However, the savagery of the revengeful Soviet bloc was nowhere near the brutal extermination that the Nazis and their satellites unleashed on the East.

So once again Eurocentrist politicians rail about a few hundred dead when Europe collectively slaughtered dozens of millions in the East just a decade prior. Yes, collectively - fascism was extremely popular in Europe of the 1930-1940s, it swept over Europe like a wave and European "resistance" to fascism was pathetic. Nazi occupation of France, Netherlands, Norway, etc. was kittens and flowers compared to what they wrought in the East; and Europeans continued to live their peaceful little lives under the Nazis just like before (except selling out some Jews, yeah).

Western Europe's collective slaughter in the East on a scale which utterly dwarfs anything that transpired in the DDR, in just 3 years depopulating entire cities and regions, leaving Poland, Yugoslavia and the USSR with a gaping hole in "their genetic memory" the size of almost half of Germany's own population - over 30 million people dead in total.

So was it injust? Yes. Was it revenge? Probably no (especially in the 1960s, over a decade afteк the war), just generic Soviet opressiveness and the desire to keep populace under control. But Europe's cries of oppression make me laugh. Europe has been the ultimate opressor long before the DDR was born into existence. First Worlders got a little taste of their own medicine which they've been poisoning people since kingdom come. Was it injust? Sure. However, in a karmic way, it was quite short of an eye for eye Biblical justice.

If the USSR annihilated 17-18 million German civilians in a few years, that would be ideal tit-for-tat "justice" for what Germany and its allies did. Other nations which participated in the fascist collective slaughter - like e.g. Hungary - in a "payback" world wouldn't get some sort of dictatorial regime and be done with it. They would lose their entire fucking population, like the Nazis planned to do with Belarus and some other territories.

So Europe and Germans can well commemorate. But they should remember that where they have denied people the right to life on the mere basis of race, those "untermenschen" they intended to slaughter and annihilate or turn into slaves, only came up with a walled border and "separated" Germany into two parts. Russia should repent, but if repentance were in any way proportional to the sins, Europe should be repenting until kingdom come, considering the magnitude of their historical deed.

Germans could not and did stop Hitler. The "rebellion" in Germany was just not there. Because whether people like it or not, Hitler was not that opressive on the inside, and the well-fed and supplied Germans did not rebel en masse. It was the poor of the East he unleashed mass extermination on; and it was them and their bayonets which brought an end to Europe's collective crusade. "Unwashed masses" from a dictatorship had to deal the Third Reich the crushing blow.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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Thanas wrote:I find it interesting that Wowereit called it an "Unrechtsstaat" (criminal state) and how that will resonate with the leader of his coalition partner, Die Linke, once more showing her true face by calling the Wall a "logical consequence of the German attack on the Soviet Union" and rightfully getting blasted in the German press.
Well it is a logical consequence, but not of the attack on the Soviet Union but of the vastly superior economical and political development in the BRD. The DDR simply could not survive without turning itself into a vast KZ camp.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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CJvR wrote:Well it is a logical consequence, but not of the attack on the Soviet Union but of the vastly superior economical and political development in the BRD. The DDR simply could not survive without turning itself into a vast KZ camp.
Which makes me wonder: During "Prague Spring" and other instances where the Warsaw Pact nations said they wanted free market reforms, why did the Soviet Union oppress these movements? I understand their desire for control over their protectorates, but I doubt this level of economic control is necessary to achieve political and diplomatic control- the oppression basically stuck the Soviets with the costs of supporting the Warsaw Pact nations' economies, when its own economy is under strain.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by ComradeClaus »

Regarding the wall, what would have happened to the GDR if it hadn't been built? Say from 1962-66? Would the GDR have collapsed? Or would the Soviets have intervened?
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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ComradeClaus wrote:Regarding the wall, what would have happened to the GDR if it hadn't been built? Say from 1962-66? Would the GDR have collapsed? Or would the Soviets have intervened?
Well, without the Wall, the GDR would have been in the following situation:
A repressive nation with a free and democratic neighbor where your standard of living would be much higher, especially with a good education - and that neighbor accepts ALL of your citizens as his own citizens.
Imagine if every Mexican could just cross the border to the USA and instantly get full citizenship.

Ultimately, the Wall had to be built to prevent the GDR to loose it's young and educated population to West Germany - the results of that should be obvious.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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Not only that, but defectors from all over the Warshaw Pact countries would use Berlin as the only hole in the Iron Curtain. The Wall was only a tiny (but very visible) part of the huge bulwark keeping people from freely moving to the West. As it were, the many of those countries were kept stable only through the force of the Red Army - the numerous uprisings it crushed proof this - and an orwellian domestic survaillence and terrorizing effort.


@Stas: I, uh... what? :wtf: What made you even go off on that tangent? This is not about the USSR, this is not even about the sowiet oppression. This is about german commemoration of a crime committed by german dictators on their german citizens. Yes, we will fucking commemorate the fucking victims of fucking oppression in our own fucking national history, thank you very fucking much. :finger:


@CJvR: The problem is not that someone dared saying something was - to the people who did it - logical. The problem with that statement and Die Linke overall is that defending this or any other GDR/Sowjet crime - especially on the day its being comemorated - is just an arrogant, backwards and plain revisionist spitting in the face of all victims of state oppression. She is making a fool of herself and her party, when the time called for honest soul search and admittance of the sheer evilness of the GDR. And as a personal note: its moments like these that reinforce my decission not to join that party, even though I agree with much of their political agenda.


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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by Skgoa »

Ghetto edit: Also, "Unrechtsstaat" is not a label reserved for the Nazis and saying the GDR was a place where the rule of law did not protect the citizens does not in any way, shape or form imply that what the Nazis did was not horrible.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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Thanas wrote:
Serafina wrote:To be fair, it WAS logical - from the point of view of a police state who doesn't care about human rights. So it was logical as the Holocaust was logical from the point of view of a genocidal monster.
No, that is not what she is saying. She is saying the wall was a logical consequence of the German attack on the Soviet Union. In other words, the Nazis are to blame, not the commies.
Sounds similar to the "reasoning" of people who carry the "Hitler was a Leftist" meme over here in the US of A. Goes like follows:

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2. The Other Side is Bad.
3. Therefore, if My Side does something Bad, it is really The Other Side's fault.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by Darth Wong »

The word "logical" merely means that a conclusion legitimately follows from its stated premises. Obviously, the wall was not logically based on the Nazi invasion of 1941; it was based on the security of the state. Its economy would collapse if the state were allowed to hollow itself out through emigration, so they took action. Mind you, almost anything can be justified by people using national interests. Americans, for example, are certainly quick enough to produce various "national interest"-based logical justifications for any one of their country's actions around the world.

Let's just say that it's not that much different from invading Iraq based on 9/11. The connection between the two is so wispy as to be nonexistent, but it's "our side" and "the other side" and that's enough of a connection for a lot of people.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by K. A. Pital »

Skgoa wrote:@Stas: I, uh... what? :wtf: What made you even go off on that tangent? This is not about the USSR, this is not even about the sowiet oppression. This is about german commemoration of a crime committed by german dictators on their german citizens. Yes, we will fucking commemorate the fucking victims of fucking oppression in our own fucking national history, thank you very fucking much. :finger:
*shakes head* My position is that without Khrushev's and USSR's pressure in general, Ulbricht wouldn't build a wall. There could be other solutions, but Khrushev insisted on the wall.

So this isn't just a "Germans oppressed Germans" issue. My nation was your nation's puppetmaster. The German government was a Soviet satellite - and thus the USSR is the primary culprit.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by Hamstray »

Stas Bush wrote: *shakes head* My position is that without Khrushev's and USSR's pressure in general, Ulbricht wouldn't build a wall. There could be other solutions, but Khrushev insisted on the wall.

So this isn't just a "Germans oppressed Germans" issue. My nation was your nation's puppetmaster. The German government was a Soviet satellite - and thus the USSR is the primary culprit.
This recently published journal http://www.leibniz-gemeinschaft.de/journal , Nr. 2/2011 03. August 2011
proposes the idea originally came from Ulbricht. Not interested to dig deeper into this though. I'm no historian.
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by K. A. Pital »

I think that the issue is a bit more complex. The transcript of the phone call between U. and K. indicates that U. was ready to consider other options, however K. said the wall is the best one. Mikoyan's opinion was not the same as Khrushev's opinion - Mikoyan was from Stalin's old guard and he was still sympathetic to ideas of united Germany. Khrushev was not and he also understood that fundamentally the Soviet bloc was too weak to stand against the West/First World on their own. As for U. creating a thinktank to plan the creation of inner border, that doesn't mean he wanted it more than Khrushev did. The author of the article himself admits that in the foreword, where he says that the talk transcripts point to Khrushev, but "it seems more plausible that Ulbricht pushed Khrushev towards the idea". Maybe it does to him; but on that we can differ quite certainly. There is no firm evidence to conclude one way or other; my opinion is just an opinion, mostly based on what I know about the 2nd generation of Soviet bureaucrats (i.e. post-Stalin ones).
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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

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Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by Broomstick »

Just because you can dredge up a few positive features of a distasteful regime does not suddenly make said regime any more palatable.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

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Edward Yee
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3395
Joined: 2005-07-31 06:48am

Re: Berlin remembers the Wall, left: shooting people logical

Post by Edward Yee »

Thanas wrote:There are no words.
Hmm...
Established in 1947 in East Berlin, Junge Welt was the official newspaper of the East German youth organization, Free German Youth, and had the biggest circulation of any East German daily newspaper. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, it was relaunched in 1994. Today, it describes itself as a Marxist publication. The Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany's domestic intelligence agency, which monitors political extremism, describes the newspaper as "the most important print medium in the left-wing extremist scene."
Wotta surprise. </sarcasm>
"Yee's proposal is exactly the sort of thing I would expect some Washington legal eagle to do. In fact, it could even be argued it would be unrealistic to not have a scene in the next book of, say, a Congressman Yee submit the Yee Act for consideration. :D" - bcoogler on this

"My crystal ball is filled with smoke, and my hovercraft is full of eels." - Bayonet

Stark: "You can't even GET to heaven. You don't even know where it is, or even if it still exists."
SirNitram: "So storm Hell." - From the legendary thread
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