Rioting in London?

[cosmicalstorm]

I'm just going to link this here, because I am stunned by the whole thing:
Iran's on the insanity peppers again

IIRC they recently accused, in public, one of Ahmadinejads aides for taking part in witchcraft and black magic.

[Big Orange]

He's quoted as saying publically that we can't "arrest [our] way out of the problem", which augurs badly for his tenure in the employ of the current government; Cameron strikes me as the sort of person who retains consultants to tell him what he wants to hear.

Yeah, he seems pretty removed from reality and him taking a thoughtlessly applied firm hand on the culprits (like unscrupulously evicting families; collective punishment) he doesn't seem keen to deal with the root causes to this mass looting that have been decades in the making, also Nick Clegg at one of the sites of major arson got openly booed at by the crowds gathering there; with the globe going into a double dip recession and a big civil uprising in England opening the possiblity for bigger trouble, I wonder if there'll be an early election?

They need to renationalise the prisons that have gotten privatised.

[Crown]

I'm just going to link this here, because I am stunned by the whole thing:
Iran's on the insanity peppers again

I know this is obviously gonna get the wrong response, but I'm kind of laughing at how blatantly Iran are trolling the west here to be honest.

[Starglider]

I'm just going to link this here, because I am stunned by the whole thing:
Iran's on the insanity peppers again

Why is this surprising? Iran's repressive regieme has a long history of outrageous propaganda; the same 'big lie' strategy that Goebbels endorsed. It looks ridiculous to outsiders but it works on conservative rural Iranians. 'Trolling the West' is just an inconsiquential side effect.

[HMS Sophia]

Why is this surprising? Iran's repressive regieme has a long history of outrageous propaganda; the same 'big lie' strategy that Goebbels endorsed. It looks ridiculous to outsiders but it works on conservative rural Iranians. 'Trolling the West' is just an inconsiquential side effect.

Its just the sheer balls inherent in this. Asking the UN to ratify a deployment of peacekeepers to London? It's... impressive.

[Serafina]

Why is this surprising? Iran's repressive regieme has a long history of outrageous propaganda; the same 'big lie' strategy that Goebbels endorsed. It looks ridiculous to outsiders but it works on conservative rural Iranians. 'Trolling the West' is just an inconsiquential side effect.

Its just the sheer balls inherent in this. Asking the UN to ratify a deployment of peacekeepers to London? It's... impressive.

Why? No one outside Iran will take it seriously, and no one takes Iran seriously anyway (other than as a military threat):. As Staarglider said, just internal propaganda.

[mr friendly guy]

I have a feeling that Iran's propaganda is more of the type where you piss the other side off purely because of its audacity. Which if you are trying to piss the UK off might actually work, and its not like it cost them a lot of effort to come up with that tripe. Just take what the west does, substitute a few names and there you have it, professional trolling.

[TC27]

Personally I think the basic problem is that many people dont fear the consequnces of breaking the law.

Camerons supercop agrees with me:

In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Bill Bratton, the former New York police chief, said many young people, especially gang members, had been “emboldened” by over-cautious policing tactics and lenient sentencing policies.

Losing public confidence in its ability to provide security — through force if necessary — created “incredible difficulty” for a police force, he said.

To be effective, a police force should have “a lot of arrows in the quiver,” said Mr Bratton, advocating a doctrine of “escalating force” where weapons including rubber bullets, Tasers, pepper spray and water cannon were all available to commanders.

Mr Cameron is an admirer of Mr Bratton’s approach to policing and has asked the American to advise him on gangs and urban violence following this week’s riots in English cities.

The disturbances led to criticism of the police for their initial response. Mr Cameron said commanders used the wrong tactics in the early stages and treated the situation too much as a public order issue, rather than “essentially one of crime”.

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You might like:London riots: live07 Aug 2011(Telegraph News)London riots: man charged with robbing Malaysian student13 Aug 2011(Telegraph News)Sarah Ferguson storms out of interview with Australia's 60 Minutes12 Aug 2011(Telegraph News)

From the WebFORM THE WEB:UK seeks advice of former US ‘super-cop’12 Aug 2011(Financial Times)10 Commonly Believed Myths about the Human Body31 Dec 1969(Environmental Graffiti)Iran Makes Itself More Vulnerable to Outside Pressure31 Dec 1969(The Washington Institute for Near East Policy)[what's this]Speaking in New York, Mr Bratton, 63, said police forces should be more assertive in their dealings with offenders, leaving no doubt that crime would always meet a firm response.

“You want the criminal element to fear them, fear their ability to interrupt their own ability to carry out criminal behaviour, and arrest and prosecute and incarcerate them,” he said.

“In my experience, the younger criminal element don’t fear the police and have been emboldened to challenge the police and effectively take them on.”

Some critics believe that British forces have been cowed by threats of legal action and a lack of political support for robust policing. Mr Bratton said officers should leave no doubt that they were ready and willing to use force when required.

“What needs to be understood is that police are empowered to do certain things — to stop, to talk, to frisk on certain occasions, to arrest if necessary, to use force,” he said.

In particular, he said, gangs must “understand that provocation will be met with appropriate response”.

More than 1,600 people have now been arrested in connection with this week’s events, and 796 have been charged.

In other developments yesterday:

• A serving soldier appeared in court in Manchester accused of taking part in riots in the city on Tuesday.

• The mother of a 12-year-old boy convicted of looting wine from a Manchester shop faced eviction from her council house after the local authority moved to end her tenancy agreement.

• Mr Cameron faced a backlash from police officers of all ranks over criticism of their tactics, forcing him to back down.

Mr Bratton’s comments may intensify the debate about how forces responded to the riots, a debate that has angered some police chiefs.

He insisted that he was not criticising the Metropolitan Police or other forces, saying he made a point of “not critiquing other agencies” until he had intimate details of how they worked.

Mr Bratton also said that more must be done to ensure that young offenders faced substantial penalties for their crimes. Some of the sentences given to youngsters guilty of looting and other crimes this week have been criticised as too lenient by Conservative MPs and police chiefs.

Mr Bratton said that “very early” in young offenders’ lives, they should be made to realise that crime will result in punishment.

“I’m very keen on the idea that if there is an action there is a reaction. You very early on have people understand there are penalties for their activities,” Mr Bratton said.

The American also backed Mr Cameron’s pledge to hold the parents of young criminals responsible for their children’s actions.

However, he is notably cool on the idea, floated by the Prime Minister, of controlling phone messaging services and social networks in order to thwart rioters.

“The bad news is that it does facilitate their movements,” he said. “And if legal frameworks don’t allow enough monitoring, there’s a debate about how much ability to give government to look at this.”

The “good news”, he said, is that police can “monitor their communications and stay ahead of their activities”.

Mr Bratton has run police forces in New York and Los Angeles, winning both plaudits and criticism from his “zero tolerance” approach.

The Daily Telegraph disclosed last week that Mr Cameron had hoped Mr Bratton could become the next Metropolitan Police Commissioner, but was frustrated by the Home Office insisting that only a British citizen should be able to run Scotland Yard. Mr Cameron intends to use Mr Bratton as a personal adviser and will meet him in London next week. The American declined to be drawn on whether he would have wanted the Met job.

[Crown]

Personally I think the basic problem is that many people dont fear the consequnces of breaking the law.

Camerons supercop agrees with me:

Amazing insight this supercop dude has, like it wasn't made blatantly clear by all the interviews that the little feral rats were giving during the riots specifically noting that 'they're not afraid of the police' and 'they were doing it to show the police they can'. Fuck me, do people get paid to point out the obvious to Cameron? If so, giz a job! I could do that!

[Broomstick]

Although I commend Cameron for not limiting himself to just the UK for possible solutions to problems, I'm not sure this so-called "super-cop" is the answer. For all that the US and UK have in common, there are some distinct cultural differences and certainly different legal systems Here in the US we don't assume that what worked for NYC will work for Cleveland or LA, it would be hasty to assume to that a NYC solution will somehow automatically work in London.

I also think Cameron is mistaken if he thinks this is a gang problem. Yes, there are criminal gangs and I have no doubt that they engaged in mischief during the riot, but a buttload of the looting and worse acts were done by lone individuals who thought they could get away with it and forgot cameras were watching. It's like he desperately wants the root problem to be gangs, just as some other folks seem to want it to be the poor or the chavs or the immigrants or whatever particular group you care to name. If it's organized groups, well, you can go after them, identify members, remove the threat before they act... but if it's lone actors, ordinary people, then it's all very much more complicated and difficult, and for those entrenched in the status quo, more frightening. It's much easier to dismiss one group than many groups, and if the level of dissatisfaction is such that pretty much anyone could engage in such uncivil behavior, well, that means the foundations of the status quo are crumbling.

Not that I, personally, think things are that bad. This really is an aberration, that's part of why it's so shocking. One problem is that the whole damn world is under multiple forms of stress right now and that means the odds of such eruptions anywhere are higher. One week it's a nutcase in Norway going on a murder spree then the next it's Chinese factory workers rioting, then mob violence in Milwaukee, then a few days later London goes nuts... If there's a pattern to all this it's not really apparent, it's just that times are hard and when times are hard certain types of bad things happen more frequently. That's not an excuse, nor an excuse for complacency, it's just a realization that the human herd is spooked right now and it won't take as much to set off a stampede of some sort.

[Starglider]

22% of white children and 48% of black children in the UK live solely with their mother, and the ratio of female to male primary school teachers is almost 6:1 (25% of primary schools do not have any male teachers). Thus for the teenage and pre-teen rioters, I suspect lack of positive male role models (plus the lack of parental contact in general when the sole parent works) is a contributing factor.

[Broomstick]

Children generally do best with two parents, both involved. It's possible for a single parent to raise good citizens, many do, but it's not nearly as easy (and parenting is never easy anyway). Good role models of both genders (whether a parent or not) are also important.

Not sure how to fix that problem. I don't know how closely the US numbers in that regard follow the UK, but we, too, are having issues along those lines.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Personally I think the basic problem is that many people dont fear the consequnces of breaking the law.

Camerons supercop agrees with me:

Amazing insight this supercop dude has, like it wasn't made blatantly clear by all the interviews that the little feral rats were giving during the riots specifically noting that 'they're not afraid of the police' and 'they were doing it to show the police they can'. Fuck me, do people get paid to point out the obvious to Cameron? If so, giz a job! I could do that!

Actually, his statement was much more in depth. He pointed out a cause - over cautious police tactics. He pointed out the result - people not caring about breaking the law. He pointed out a solution - giving field commanders escalating use of force options, none of which included deadly force, outrageous evictions, etc.

Crown, do you honestly expect an in depth analysis from the media?

[Starglider]

Crown, do you honestly expect an in depth analysis from the media?

Here is an 'in depth analysis' that the anti-corporal-punishment brigade should enjoy. Read the comments for the full effect.

[cosmicalstorm]

I've never seen so many wanted images on the cover of a newspaper

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

I'm beginning to suspect that a significant % of the participators will be caught. In my hometown of Gothenburg there was a big anti EU/Bush riot in 2001. Afterwards the police used automated software to compare clothing from different photos to obtain alternative pictures were rioters had taken off their hoods and masks. Knowing the sheer number of CCTV's in London and an additional decade of processor growth, HD size increases and software advances they should be able to track many people down. Or maybe I'm underestimating the number of participators.

[weemadando]

I think I mentioned previously an interesting opinion piece I'd read about the transition of the police from an engaged, pro-active force with a focus on local beat cops who acted more as a deterrent than responders (which was required in the days prior to reliable reporting and dispatching) to a smaller, reactive force which relies on quick reporting and response times.

The main argument was the the first style had police who were, by necessity, visible and engaged members of the local community. The second style has police as a group who are generally only seen when something bad has already happened and because they cover a much larger area have less chance to build relationships in the community.

It was an interesting concept and I'd be intrigued to see what other people think of the psychology/sociology of it.

[Zaune]

Whatever the psychology/sociology of it, it's a logistical necessity now. To actually be effective you'd need one two-man patrol for every square mile or so of built-up area plus at least as many personnel in vehicles, and another 10-20% floating reserves to team up with whoever's partner is on vacation or sick-leave, and a load of specialist units like Armed Response or harbour patrol etc. Then multiply all that by three for 24-hour coverage.
Even allowing for the fact that some of this could be done by Special Constables (unpaid volunteers with most of the same powers and training), the numbers involved are daunting to think about even in a semi-rural area; in London it would be impossible.

[madd0ct0r]

more fucking internet tough guy bullshit. i get enough of that on facebook.

There is a point, when this board in general, just takes itself too fucking seriously, and can't see an obvious joke when it's written. It's boring now.

sorry. People calling for optimus prime, that I get as a joke. But Harry Brown is too close to reality and what certain idiots (not here) are baying for me to feel comfortable. So yeah, I missed the joke. Sorry. The previous three harry brown refs hadn't been jokes, and some of those idiots do belong to a gun club.

need some alcohol.

[Big Orange]

Children generally do best with two parents, both involved. It's possible for a single parent to raise good citizens, many do, but it's not nearly as easy (and parenting is never easy anyway). Good role models of both genders (whether a parent or not) are also important.

Not sure how to fix that problem. I don't know how closely the US numbers in that regard follow the UK, but we, too, are having issues along those lines.

The role of grand parents is understated.

Trouble is many of those kids to single parent mums often mingle with a terrible peer group by the time of their teens, making things worse.

And the number of suspects arrested has up to over two thousand since yesterday afternoon.

[Elfdart]

My take on that? Police provocation to clear out possible riot and protest leaders from poorest districts before the Olympics.

Usually such operations are quite efficient. Fair share of them, both in the First World and here. Provocators from police and enforcement agencies start instigating people; then it is just a matter of arresting riot leaders and for a few years many protest groups they led will be decapitated and in disarray.

If this was a setup, then London cops are totally inept. Agents provocateur are useful only when the police or soldiers are strong enough to kick the shit out of crowds when the infiltrator starts chucking bottles or rocks or whatever at the guys in uniform. Otherwise it doesn't really work.

From what I've read, there were more police on hand for the royal wedding than there were even after the shit hit the fan.

[K. A. Pital]

From what I've read, there were more police on hand for the royal wedding than there were even after the shit hit the fan.

*facepalm* If so, that's astonishing levels of incompetence. Well, I shouldn't ascribe to malice then, if something can be adequately explained by stupidity.

[Big Orange]

*facepalm* If so, that's astonishing levels of incompetence. Well, I shouldn't ascribe to malice then, if something can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I think stupidity could apply to Boris Johnson, Nick Clegg, and David Cameron.

Here's an interesting article on the hypocritical UK elite:

The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and the entire British political class came together yesterday to denounce the rioters. They were of course right to say that the actions of these looters, arsonists and muggers were abhorrent and criminal, and that the police should be given more support.

But there was also something very phony and hypocritical about all the shock and outrage expressed in parliament. MPs spoke about the week’s dreadful events as if they were nothing to do with them.

I cannot accept that this is the case. Indeed, I believe that the criminality in our streets cannot be dissociated from the moral disintegration in the highest ranks of modern British society. The last two decades have seen a terrifying decline in standards among the British governing elite. It has become acceptable for our politicians to lie and to cheat. An almost universal culture of selfishness and greed has grown up.

It is not just the feral youth of Tottenham who have forgotten they have duties as well as rights. So have the feral rich of Chelsea and Kensington. A few years ago, my wife and I went to a dinner party in a large house in west London. A security guard prowled along the street outside, and there was much talk of the “north-south divide”, which I took literally for a while until I realised that my hosts were facetiously referring to the difference between those who lived north and south of Kensington High Street.

Most of the people in this very expensive street were every bit as deracinated and cut off from the rest of Britain as the young, unemployed men and women who have caused such terrible damage over the last few days. For them, the repellent Financial Times magazine How to Spend It is a bible. I’d guess that few of them bother to pay British tax if they can avoid it, and that fewer still feel the sense of obligation to society that only a few decades ago came naturally to the wealthy and better off.

Yet we celebrate people who live empty lives like this. A few weeks ago, I noticed an item in a newspaper saying that the business tycoon Sir Richard Branson was thinking of moving his headquarters to Switzerland. This move was represented as a potential blow to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, because it meant less tax revenue.

I couldn’t help thinking that in a sane and decent world such a move would be a blow to Sir Richard, not the Chancellor. People would note that a prominent and wealthy businessman was avoiding British tax and think less of him. Instead, he has a knighthood and is widely feted. The same is true of the brilliant retailer Sir Philip Green. Sir Philip’s businesses could never survive but for Britain’s famous social and political stability, our transport system to shift his goods and our schools to educate his workers.

Yet Sir Philip, who a few years ago sent an extraordinary £1 billion dividend offshore, seems to have little intention of paying for much of this. Why does nobody get angry or hold him culpable? I know that he employs expensive tax lawyers and that everything he does is legal, but he surely faces ethical and moral questions just as much as does a young thug who breaks into one of Sir Philip’s shops and steals from it?

Our politicians – standing sanctimoniously on their hind legs in the Commons yesterday – are just as bad. They have shown themselves prepared to ignore common decency and, in some cases, to break the law. David Cameron is happy to have some of the worst offenders in his Cabinet. Take the example of Francis Maude, who is charged with tackling public sector waste – which trade unions say is a euphemism for waging war on low‑paid workers. Yet Mr Maude made tens of thousands of pounds by breaching the spirit, though not the law, surrounding MPs’ allowances.

A great deal has been made over the past few days of the greed of the rioters for consumer goods, not least by Rotherham MP Denis MacShane who accurately remarked, “What the looters wanted was for a few minutes to enter the world of Sloane Street consumption.” This from a man who notoriously claimed £5,900 for eight laptops. Of course, as an MP he obtained these laptops legally through his expenses.

Yesterday, the veteran Labour MP Gerald Kaufman asked the Prime Minister to consider how these rioters can be “reclaimed” by society. Yes, this is indeed the same Gerald Kaufman who submitted a claim for three months’ expenses totalling £14,301.60, which included £8,865 for a Bang & Olufsen television.

Or take the Salford MP Hazel Blears, who has been loudly calling for draconian action against the looters. I find it very hard to make any kind of ethical distinction between Blears’s expense cheating and tax avoidance, and the straight robbery carried out by the looters.

The Prime Minister showed no sign that he understood that something stank about yesterday’s Commons debate. He spoke of morality, but only as something which applies to the very poor: “We will restore a stronger sense of morality and responsibility – in every town, in every street and in every estate.” He appeared not to grasp that this should apply to the rich and powerful as well.

The tragic truth is that Mr Cameron is himself guilty of failing this test. It is scarcely six weeks since he jauntily turned up at the News International summer party, even though the media group was at the time subject to not one but two police investigations. Even more notoriously, he awarded a senior Downing Street job to the former News of the World editor Andy Coulson, even though he knew at the time that Coulson had resigned after criminal acts were committed under his editorship. The Prime Minister excused his wretched judgment by proclaiming that “everybody deserves a second chance”. It was very telling yesterday that he did not talk of second chances as he pledged exemplary punishment for the rioters and looters.

These double standards from Downing Street are symptomatic of widespread double standards at the very top of our society. It should be stressed that most people (including, I know, Telegraph readers) continue to believe in honesty, decency, hard work, and putting back into society at least as much as they take out.

But there are those who do not. Certainly, the so-called feral youth seem oblivious to decency and morality. But so are the venal rich and powerful – too many of our bankers, footballers, wealthy businessmen and politicians.

Of course, most of them are smart and wealthy enough to make sure that they obey the law. That cannot be said of the sad young men and women, without hope or aspiration, who have caused such mayhem and chaos over the past few days. But the rioters have this defence: they are just following the example set by senior and respected figures in society. Let’s bear in mind that many of the youths in our inner cities have never been trained in decent values. All they have ever known is barbarism. Our politicians and bankers, in sharp contrast, tend to have been to good schools and universities and to have been given every opportunity in life.

Something has gone horribly wrong in Britain. If we are ever to confront the problems which have been exposed in the past week, it is essential to bear in mind that they do not only exist in inner-city housing estates.

The culture of greed and impunity we are witnessing on our TV screens stretches right up into corporate boardrooms and the Cabinet. It embraces the police and large parts of our media. It is not just its damaged youth, but Britain itself that needs a moral reformation.

Tags: andy coulson, Crime, David Cameron, Denis MacShane, Ed Miliband, Financial Times, Francis Maude, George Osborne, Gerald Kaufman, Hazel Blears, justice, London, london riots, moral reformation, MPs' expenses, Sir Philip Green, Society, Switzerland, tax, Tottenham, uk riots.

The Telegraph

[Zaune]

Note to those outside the UK: The Daily Telegraph is a famously right-of-centre newspaper aimed squarely at the middle and upper classes, occasionally referred to by its destractors as the Torygraph.

Being criticised by them from the left would probably have made Mrs Thatcher second-guess herself.

[Steel]

I do find the comparison hilarious: "Everyone was doing it, I was just caught up in the moment!"

Rioter looting or MP's expense scandal? Who can tell?

[Starglider]

Being criticised by them from the left would probably have made Mrs Thatcher second-guess herself.

Criticising legal tax avoidance might conceivably be characterised as left wing, but criticism of excess and outright pillaging by politicians is in no way a left-wing viewpoint. Rather, socialists and communists are all for the party leadership and faithful getting special luxuries and privilidges; a signature feature of both the USSR and increasingly the EU. The massive all-powerful state apparatus advocated by the left wing inevitably gets exploited by elites as a way to maintain their lifestyles.