Deathwatch vs Space marines

[DPDarkPrimus]

ITT people don't understand the concept of diversity or mutually beneficial situations.

[Zinegata]

This sounds like your looking at this from the marine point of view.
I just don't see the inquisitors tabling this idea for those reasons.
Allowing marines to try out some new tactics without getting sanctioned. Sure you could look at it that way but to me it seems more like providing them with enough rope to hang themselves.

It works for the Inquisition too. They don't have to worry about the Ultramarines Chapter Master getting all surly because they decided to capture and study a Xenos artifact, as opposed to simply destroying it.

Hell, isn't the entire Ultramarine book series the result of the Ultramarines deciding to sanction an otherwise outstanding group of Ultramarines (who proved loyal from start to finish) because of mere perceived heresy due to violations in protocol?

The Inquisition moreover is not a monolithic bloc of "HERESY! BURN THEM!" idiots. Inquisitors do in fact understand that some leeway is necessary for the effective defense of the Imperium. Hell, the entire Ciaphas Cain novel series is supposedly the secret memoirs of how an Imperial hero was in fact a massive coward who just wanted to hide from the fighting... and yet it's apparently avidly read by the Inquisition itself in-universe.

[Whiskey144]

Hell, isn't the entire Ultramarine book series the result of the Ultramarines deciding to sanction an otherwise outstanding group of Ultramarines (who proved loyal from start to finish) because of mere perceived heresy due to violations in protocol?

Not quite; Uriel Ventris is fairly unconventional throughout the 1st and parts of the second books- due primarily to the influence of former 4th company Captain Idaeus. However, at the beginning of the 3rd, it is revealed that Uriel and Pasanius are exiled from the chapter- mostly because Uriel decided to lead the Deathwatch mission instead of his company, as the Deathwatch captain on-site, Bannon, was KIA.

It wasn't so much "HERESY!" as "DESERTION!", if I had to use a singular term to define it.

ITT people don't understand the concept of diversity or mutually beneficial situations.

I think it's closer to not understanding the politics of the Imperium, and the fact that the Grey Knights (the only comparable situation) are above normal Marines as normal Marines are above mortal men.... plus the GKs are super-high-top-secret. IIRC, Ventris, when captured by Grey Knights in the 4th Ultramarines book, didn't know that of the Grey Knights existence until after he'd been captured and been told "you are a prisoner of the Grey Knights".

From the PoV of the greater Imperium, and in particular the majority of the Inquisitorial Ordos and the Astartes chapters, a dedicated chapter of Marines for the Ordo Xenos would be an unheard-of situation.

Contributing factors are that the Chamber Militant of the Malleus is super-high-top-secret, and the Chamber Militant of the Hereticus is apparently the Adepta Sororitas- though the latter may well change in the future, with a rumored Sisters 'dex.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I think it's closer to not understanding the politics of the Imperium

Yes, definitely that as well.

[PainRack]

The plural of anecdote is not data. That in one or two incidents a squad from one chapter does better than a Deathwatch squad is fairly meaningless, especially when you don't control for the compositions of the squads. I'm fairly sure that a Blood Angels squad lead by the Mephiston, Lord of Death can outperform almost any squad from any chapter (except perhaps one lead by another main character). We're talking about groups of Astartes. Everyone performs at a very high level.

Page 304 of the Deathwatch rulebook outright states that they're superior to ordinary Marines in their field of expertise. Pages 309-310 deal with the selection process, which again marks them as being among the best Marines in a Chapter. 311-312 Deals with special training and equipment.

Excuse me, Zinnegata argues that the Deathwatch is an entirely different war fighting machine, or iow, that there are things that only the Deathwatch can do or do so much better than other chapters. This simply isn't clear.

plural of ancedotes? Let's try this again shall we? Codex Chaos Space Marines state that Space Marine squads are divided and deployed to fight missions, and raise the spectre of how this actually increase the risks of them turning to Chaos. It IS a common practice, so, Zinnegata argument that the Chapters don't deploy in squads routinely? Straightaway dismissed there. This EVEN as I fiinger out multiple fluff over and over again that shows that the Space Marine chapters DO deploy in squads based level routinely.

There are missions that the Deathwatch can do so much better that normal space marines can't? FIND me one. Seriously.
Let's quote from pg 304, shall we?

Yet, there exist some alien threats against which even the
Space Marines are hard pressed to prevail. Some aliens are
so utterly evil, their very nature so disgusting, their methods
so malevolent, their intentions so wicked that a unique,
dedicated force is required to combat them. That force is the
Deathwatch

So, how do you find the talent involved?

The warriors that join the ranks of the Deathwatch
are always those with the most experience of fighting against
alien warriors. They have faced every kind of alien threat, and
prevailed. They have faced the impure blasphemies of the
noisome Reek and emerged untainted. They have entered the
dark nightmare of the Hrud warrens, and scoured those vile
places clean. They have resisted the domination of the mind
eating Khrave, rewarding those inexplicable life forms with
death. In short, they have entered the darkest places in the
galaxy, faced what terrors lurk there, and emerged victorious.
The warriors of the Deathwatch are amongst the most potent
defenders of Humanity, without whom a thousand xenos races
might have overwhelmed Mankind centuries ago

Oh right. By recruiting from the chapters who DO fight such xeno threats.

Ok.... but this means, the Deathwatch has more "elite" troopers, doesn't it? That will make it a more effective fighting force against xenos, right?

Prove it. Military science has shown that given the lethality of modern day weapons, after a certain stage, there simply isn't any more discernable advantage to being "more skilled".
Indeed, the rulebook states this clearly when it says

Service in the Deathwatch is understood by ancient
convention to be limited to a single mission. In practice,
however, a mission could be defined as a campaign or a vigil
spanning an indefinite period of time. When chosen to serve in
the Deathwatch, the warrior often bids his Brothers farewell as
if he will never see them or fight by their sides again. Given the
foes that he is likely to face, this may well be the truth

It suggests that Deathwatch Space Marines AREN"t likely to survive their tour of duty.

Again, where is this so called "elite" expertise in squad level combat that a normal Space Marine doesn't possess? Given what we know of military tactics and science, I could actually convincing argue that if the Deathwatch deploy in larger numbers more routinely, casualties would actually be lesser. This MUST be the case because elite space Marines, faced with the kind of threats the Deathwatch undergo do expect to have most of their brothers return back alive.

Note that we haven't actually discussed their training. Let's use the rulebook again, shall we?

The Brother
might have experienced combat against a hundred different
alien races, but there are many thousands more he may never
have encountered or even heard of. The Deathwatch takes it
upon itself to pass on every shred of knowledge possible to
its warriors, through a myriad of different means.
The newly recruited Brother is initially subjected to a
gruelling regime of hypno-indoctrination, in which his
subconscious mind is filled to overflowing with the details of
every known intelligent race, and many classed as mindless,
yet highly dangerous animals. This process merely lays the
groundwork for further schooling and study, which unlocks
the full potential of the Space Marine’s superior mental
capacity. A warrior faced with a foe he has never before
encountered may thus find that he recalls the exact weak spot
that must be targeted in order to it strike down.
Hypno-indoctrination is but the lesser part of a Deathwatch
Space Marine’s preparation, however, and he undertakes
constant training in the methods required to combat specific
enemies. While much of this training is theoretical, some is
very real indeed. The Brother may be required to enter a
sealed beast-chamber in which a captured alien combatant
is entrapped. He is not allowed to exit until he has killed it,
often armed with only his combat knife, with his bare hands
and teeth or without his armour. Only when the Brother’s
Watch Captain is satisfied that he is ready, and the Watch
Commander concurs, is he authorised to take his place in a
Kill-team and undertake his first mission.

Again. Just WHAT is so special and exotic about this training that doesn't exist with any other Chapter? The sole difference is the insitutional knowledge the Inquisition/Deathwatch possess.

Frankly, knowledge that should be more readily disseminated to normal space marines. Imagine what would had happened in WW2 if the Thatcher weave hadn't been disseminated, or the Zero weak spots disseminated more widely amongst US pilots? Proponents who argue that the Deathwatch store of theoretical knowledge is superior than normal Marine chapters are arguing this right now.

[PainRack]

The Inquisition moreover is not a monolithic bloc of "HERESY! BURN THEM!" idiots. Inquisitors do in fact understand that some leeway is necessary for the effective defense of the Imperium. Hell, the entire Ciaphas Cain novel series is supposedly the secret memoirs of how an Imperial hero was in fact a massive coward who just wanted to hide from the fighting... and yet it's apparently avidly read by the Inquisition itself in-universe.

And you left out the passage where Amberly comments that the Inquisitors disbelieve her and Cain account of what happens. She even clearly states that they read it as an adventure story.

There is no indication whatsoever that the Inquisition as a whole approves of Cain, the Coward.

I think it's closer to not understanding the politics of the Imperium, and the fact that the Grey Knights (the only comparable situation) are above normal Marines as normal Marines are above mortal men.... plus the GKs are super-high-top-secret. IIRC, Ventris, when captured by Grey Knights in the 4th Ultramarines book, didn't know that of the Grey Knights existence until after he'd been captured and been told "you are a prisoner of the Grey Knights".

Are we reading the same book? Ventris shows that he DOES have deep insitutional knowledge of the Grey Knights, their role and etc against daemons. He didn't know he was captured by the Grey Knights purely because he got trapped in rubble before he was rescued by them. Being shook out from rubble by armoured space marines doesn't suggest that he didn't know of the Grey Knights existence.

If he did not have deep knowledge of what was going on, pray tell why did he possess knowledge of the Grey knights anti daemon mission straight from the start of their interrogration? Or his reluctance to defeat the Emperor champion?

[PainRack]

So I'd like to turn the question around: why would the Ordos Xenos want a regular Space Marine chapter (or even a number of them) in place of the Deathwatch?

Cheaper and a more reliable flow of manpower .

Deathwatch recruitment is based on these factors.

1. The chapters volunteer suitable recruits for the Deathwatch. If found suitable, then he awaits the Watch Commander/Deathwatch to come fetch him.
Naturally, this would also be based on Chapter politics and their own ability to send forth such elite recruits.

2. The Watch commander appeals for recruits, mostly by visiting the Chapter personally, or using trusted Brothers of the same chapter.


3. The inquisition request chapters to volunteer marines to serve him, and recommend such marines to the Death Watch.

Note the HUGE cost and time factor all of this entails. Picking up single, or even small groups of marines from individual chapters, sending a Watch Commander, the equivalent of a Marine Captain/Chapter Master to each chapter to ask for recruits all take time and money/ship hours.

This ignores the next factor, which is returning recruits back to the Marine chapters. Afterall, Marines are supposed to serve only 1 mission for the Deathwatch.

On top of that, the single mission/campaign/vigil factor suggests that kill teams would routinely fluctuate. This would create problems of unit cohesion. Indeed, this is ALREADY a problem for the Deathwatch due to the possible nature of rival chapters serving in the same kill team. This is compenstaed for by once again, time and increased training. A "wastage" of man hours in other words.


Lastly, I will once again point out the same argument Chris of Farrell stated. You're taking elite warriors from Space Marine chapter, weakening the line units to form a special ops unit that doesn't really do anything extraordinary special to justify the cost of weakening your normal chapters.

[Elessar]

If we can recruit from Normal Marines provide them with special training and enhanced equipment we get Deathwatch marines. It then would stand to reason that I can get a Deathwatch marine by taking an initiate turining them into a Normal Marine then giving them special training and enhanced equipment. If the only goal is a force of marines dedicated to the support of the Ordo Xenos then sure a chapter should work just fine. It is possibly an even better choice since you get the chance to indoctrinate the recruits while they are still impressionable.

Why is this a better choice? The Ordo is now responsible for maintaining and training their own force. And remember, training to fight Xenos is unlike Space Marine training. The latter requires the maintenance of the geneseed too, and the creation of said-marines. Why take on that responsibility when you can draw from the existing pool?

As for indoctrination, this is a case of the Deathwatch is good enough for what it does. Unlike the Grey Knights -- whose reliability against Chaos is apparently incomparable as not a single one of them has ever turned -- the Deathwatch as it exists is sufficient.

If I need to season my recruits before they get their special training then you send them out for tours with other more conventional chapters. If they agreed to donate marines I'm sure they would agree to being given a few extra marines for a while.

If I also wanted to score points with the Ordo Hereticus/Malleus then I'd take the existing deathwatch layout.

Again, none of these points supports the effort of maintaining their own Chapter instead of just drawing from a pool of existing Space Marines. If anything, the Ordo is taking on more responsibility for no gain.

[Elessar]

Cheaper and a more reliable flow of manpower .

Deathwatch recruitment is based on these factors.

1. The chapters volunteer suitable recruits for the Deathwatch. If found suitable, then he awaits the Watch Commander/Deathwatch to come fetch him.
Naturally, this would also be based on Chapter politics and their own ability to send forth such elite recruits.

2. The Watch commander appeals for recruits, mostly by visiting the Chapter personally, or using trusted Brothers of the same chapter.


3. The inquisition request chapters to volunteer marines to serve him, and recommend such marines to the Death Watch.

Note the HUGE cost and time factor all of this entails. Picking up single, or even small groups of marines from individual chapters, sending a Watch Commander, the equivalent of a Marine Captain/Chapter Master to each chapter to ask for recruits all take time and money/ship hours.

As opposed to the cost of maintaining gene-seed, recruitment and losses, as well as the chapter-monastery world to train an initiate from scratch, to scout, to Marine? Compared to that maintenance, flying around picking up Marines seems easy.

And as far as I'm aware, I don't believe there are any serious manpower restrictions on the Deathwatch right now. So I'm not sure why you believe it's more reliable. It's a matter of picking up a ready resource, instead of the costly manufacturing of one. Compare that to something like the Crimson Fists during the defense of Rynn's World, who are still understrength and at times needed to restrict their Marines with specific tactical doctrines in order to maintain enough gene-seed to rebuild their devastated Chapter. The Crimson Fists can't steal Marines from other chapters to quickly maintain codex strength. The Deathwatch can.

This ignores the next factor, which is returning recruits back to the Marine chapters. Afterall, Marines are supposed to serve only 1 mission for the Deathwatch.

On top of that, the single mission/campaign/vigil factor suggests that kill teams would routinely fluctuate. This would create problems of unit cohesion. Indeed, this is ALREADY a problem for the Deathwatch due to the possible nature of rival chapters serving in the same kill team. This is compenstaed for by once again, time and increased training. A "wastage" of man hours in other words.

This is a fair point, but it doesn't seem to be a major factor. In most situations involving the Deathwatch, they are regarded even by fellow marines (I'm thinking of Uriel Ventris in Warriors of Ultramar) as an incredibly efficient and tight-knit squad.

The definition and length of a single mission seems to fluctuate as well. Certainly Bannon's squad in Warriors of Ultramar had served together for quite sometime under Kryptmann, and if I recall the team that showed up in the the first Eisenhorn novel had also served together for quite some time, with a Librarian too!

Lastly, I will once again point out the same argument Chris of Farrell stated. You're taking elite warriors from Space Marine chapter, weakening the line units to form a special ops unit that doesn't really do anything extraordinary special to justify the cost of weakening your normal chapters.

Space Marine chapters lose warriors on a regular basis. It's the grimdark future. A single Marine from each chapter would result in a codex-strength Deathwatch 'chapter', and that's hardly a big deal given the losses suffered by Marine chapters.

I just don't see the benefit of a dedicated chapter. At least, not enough of a benefit to require the huge cost of maintaining the gene-seed.

[Dwelf]

If we can recruit from Normal Marines provide them with special training and enhanced equipment we get Deathwatch marines. It then would stand to reason that I can get a Deathwatch marine by taking an initiate turining them into a Normal Marine then giving them special training and enhanced equipment. If the only goal is a force of marines dedicated to the support of the Ordo Xenos then sure a chapter should work just fine. It is possibly an even better choice since you get the chance to indoctrinate the recruits while they are still impressionable.

Why is this a better choice? The Ordo is now responsible for maintaining and training their own force. And remember, training to fight Xenos is unlike Space Marine training. The latter requires the maintenance of the geneseed too, and the creation of said-marines. Why take on that responsibility when you can draw from the existing pool?

As for indoctrination, this is a case of the Deathwatch is good enough for what it does. Unlike the Grey Knights -- whose reliability against Chaos is apparently incomparable as not a single one of them has ever turned -- the Deathwatch as it exists is sufficient.

If I need to season my recruits before they get their special training then you send them out for tours with other more conventional chapters. If they agreed to donate marines I'm sure they would agree to being given a few extra marines for a while.

If I also wanted to score points with the Ordo Hereticus/Malleus then I'd take the existing deathwatch layout.

Again, none of these points supports the effort of maintaining their own Chapter instead of just drawing from a pool of existing Space Marines. If anything, the Ordo is taking on more responsibility for no gain.

The inqisition already maintains the watch fortresses, equipment and training of the deathwatch. Your simply swapping the overhead of providing specialised training to a marine that is only going to serve a single mission. To training recruits that are yours to use however you wish once they have completed training.

I don't know enough about the attrition rate of the deathwatch or hard costs of creating and training a marine to make an accurate comparison on which of those is going to be cheaper. It is entirely possible that having your own chapter gets you superior marines for reduced cost. I see it being about 50/50 on the logistics of the choice. For simple effectiveness on missions I'll take the chapter logically a squad that consistently works together should be superior to one that has just been thrown together just for the mission all other points being about even.

I'm not trying to argue that a chapter would make more sense I've just yet to see a reason why a chapter could not perform just as well if your only concern is mission effectiveness. I've already made my point on why I think they chose the the current method over forming a new chapter.

[Kojiro]

Surely the reason for the Deathwatch is simple pandering by the Ordos to the marines. All the Ordos want is to do their job, and having a strike force of marines on hand simply opens up a range of possibilites and options not available to an Inqisitor otherwise. Calling them 'Deathwatch' and giving them new toys (which it is unclear they get to keep after completion) and honours is just the purchase price of pulling the marines from their chapter.

What doesn't make sense is the multi chapter composition. Firstly it is asking for animosity where you can't afford it- the chapters most likely to have issues with one another are those closest (such as it is) to each other. Secondly any 'experienced' marine is undoubtedly part of squad- a squad which is likely as experienced at the same things and would already have immense experience and skill functioning as a unit. Thirdly marines are no so common you can take them when and where you like them from, and I'd find it infinitely more plausible that a chapter would lend out a full combat squad, with it's gear, training, familiarity and experience than allow you to simply steal one of them.

Marine chapters aren't exactly common as they're distributed over an incredibly large territory. Sure you could request a marine from five different chapters, hope their doctrines don't clash, hope they get a long and hope you get what you asked for and then go through the logistics of getting the marines together. But I don't see how it's smarter than just borrowing a full squad from the nearest chapter.

In fact one could make the argument that Deathwatch squads are more likely to be corrupted or go bad. Removed from their hierarchy, their own ways and customs absent (as well as friends and colleagues) it could be akin to a fundamentalist (which it's not a stretch to call marines) leaving home for the first time. Add to that the deliberate use of them against the most 'heretical' things and it seems like asking for trouble.

Personally I think the Deathwatch would be cooler if they were 'attonemet' squads. Marines who had failed in some way on the field and were otherwise unfit to stand with their brothers but still useful to the Imperium. Given over to the Inquisition to use, following the older style GW fluff when troops who fight against chaos are exterminated as a safety measure, win or lose (marines were spared this fate, and simply mindscrubbed and re educated). In that way you could have them being multi chapter (take the dishonoured as you get them), can justify removing their chapter colours and focus them on serving until death in missions marines are normally too valuable to waste on.

[PainRack]

[quote="ElessarAs opposed to the cost of maintaining gene-seed, recruitment and losses, as well as the chapter-monastery world to train an initiate from scratch, to scout, to Marine? Compared to that maintenance, flying around picking up Marines seems easy.[/quote]
Given the difficulty of warp travel, hell YES. First of all, the Deathwatch does has to have its own repository for geneseed and is responsible for storing and returning geneseed of brothers lost on missions.

The rest is scale of resources. The resources actually expended to train and create an initate from scratch is definitely lesser than actually maintaining and gathering recruits from willing chapters.

And as far as I'm aware, I don't believe there are any serious manpower restrictions on the Deathwatch right now. So I'm not sure why you believe it's more reliable.

The Imperium is NOT modern day earth, SW or etc. Its a feudal insitution with long and unreliable communications, both in terms of warp travel and astropathic communications.
THAT"S the unreliabilty factor introduced.

The Crimson Fists can't steal Marines from other chapters to quickly maintain codex strength. The Deathwatch can.

Right. And other chapters are all so overstrenght in the quality of recruits involved that they can easily offer such recruits to the Deathwatch? Not to mention the restrictions on manpower based on both honour as well as mutation. The major sources for the Deathwatch are derived from Storm Wardens, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolfs, Dark Angels as well as a multitude of other chapters.(Novamarines and Sons of Gulliman has been noted). Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, Ultramarines are understrength. Blood Angels and Space Wolves recruitment are restricted due to their geneseed instability. Dark Angels have their own agenda and honour code that prevents the Deathwatch from heavily recruiting from them. Other Marine chapters such as the Sons of Gulliman, Novamarines are now heavily engaged in various sectors against the Tau, Orks or Tyrannids.

Brothers found suitable for volunteering to the Deathwatch may well have died in combat before the Watch actually comes to pick them up. Not to mention the travel issue involved. One can easily imagine a Sorry mario, the Princess is in another castle situation when the Deathwatch recruitment ship arrives at the Chapter homeworld only to find that the marines involved has been deployed to another sector and astropathic communications did not arrive in time.

This is a fair point, but it doesn't seem to be a major factor. In most situations involving the Deathwatch, they are regarded even by fellow marines (I'm thinking of Uriel Ventris in Warriors of Ultramar) as an incredibly efficient and tight-knit squad.

Yes. By actually insituting ADDITIONAL training hours to intergrate them together. That's a source of inefficiency right there.

The definition and length of a single mission seems to fluctuate as well. Certainly Bannon's squad in Warriors of Ultramar had served together for quite sometime under Kryptmann, and if I recall the team that showed up in the the first Eisenhorn novel had also served together for quite some time, with a Librarian too!

As already quoted, the definition of a single mission may mean a campaign of years of vigil. Of course, this just creates ANOTHER problem vis a vis Vietnam, when US soldiers of different tour lengths return back States side.

I just don't see the benefit of a dedicated chapter. At least, not enough of a benefit to require the huge cost of maintaining the gene-seed.

Quantify the huge cost of maintaining this geneseed. The ONLY cost involved is actually finding aspirants, intergrating and then training said initates and failing those whoose implants, attitude and etc fail before graduating them as battle brothers. EVERYTHING else is already borne by the Deathwatch, with additional astronomic costs of actually sending ships to go and pick up space marines and returning them.

Honestly, I love to see how you justify sending a Deatwatch commander, the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain or higher, around multiple chapters to ask them for recruits and say this cost is LESS expensive than training your own force. You're taking a highly elite commander, one whoose duties are supposedly so vital and myriad, from adminstration, diplomacy as well as monitoring/deciphering intelligence from aliens and sending him around to ask for recruits on a ship that may take weeks(presumably, the Deathwatch ship speeds are faster and more reliable than normal Imperium vessels.) This when the neccessity of having to ask for recruits suggest that something IS building up right now, and in a situation where astropathic communication is simply not as reliable or efficienct as modern day communications.

[Simon_Jester]

Again, just because individual Blood Raven squads and some rules allow single Space Marine squads to go rambo on enemy XYZ doesn't mean that individual squad deployments are the norm. There is an enormous difference between "can do it" and "do it as the norm." Seriously. Check out the 40K fluff. When Space Marines deploy, they generally deploy enmasse - usually counting the number of companies involved in a campaign.

This too varies; there are novels where only one squad or a few individual Marines are deployed to deal with a problem. It depends on the scale of the problem and what's available at the time- sending one squad to go deal with a petty rebellion or stage a raid on an isolated target may actually be enough, if it's handled properly.

Astartes can do it, and do it well, even though it's not their specialty.

I think what makes Deathwatch special is more that they operate under Inquisition control than anything specific about their training and doctrine.

Finally, it also allows different marines with different specializations to work together. Does the mission require you to use a Rhino for long-distance ground travel? Add a White Scar to the Deathwatch team. A regular Marine may be a great driver, but a White Scar will probably be better at it because that's a huge part of their Chapter's training.

Very true.

A less common, but potentially vital mission profile is the
location and recovery of alien artefacts.

Again. Bread and butter for space marines. Note that the deathwatch doesn't actually conduct the investigation. It supports the Inquisition team that's doing the investigation, providing the muscle so as to speak...

One of the more onerous duties sometimes performed by the
Deathwatch is that of ‘sanitising’ human forces exposed to alien
contamination

Marine Malovent anyone?

In general, in response to this...

Remember, while certain chapters make routine practice of doing things the Deathwatch does, those chapters aren't found in all corners of the galaxy at all times. The Marines Malevolent are happy to kill off random humans they don't like, but many chapters aren't. God help the inquisitor who asks for help in doing that from, say, the Salamanders. Even if you can get help from the Marines Malevolent or their equivalents, they tend to be obnoxious and hostile, which makes them poor subordinates and makes getting help from them hard.

So there won't always be Marines Malevolent available- whereas Deathwatch teams are on inquisitorial call, and no one can really override the inquisition's claim on them.

Again, that's what's critically different- the command role. A Marine chapter could no doubt be created to do everything the Deathwatch does, sure... but why? Why accept the complications and hassle associated with a chapter, with all its own traditions and legal quasi-independence from other institutions of the state? What would anyone gain from this?

And if you remove the traditional independence (no 'chapter master' for the Deathwatch 'chapter'), then it's not a chapter at all, it's just a private, self-sustaining army of Marines, belonging to the Ordo Xenos. Which will be opposed by many forces within the imperial state.

One of the things that maintains the balance of power within the Imperium is the quasi-independent status of the Marines, which allows them to engage in 'knight errantry' when required, and to forcibly rein in the folly of other parts of the Imperial hierarchy. Breaking that tradition is in no one's interest, least of all the Astartes'. This whole plan might reasonably be viewed by people like Guilliman as an attempt by the Inquisition to replace the existing quasi-independent Marine chapters with an army under inquisition control.

[Zinegata]

The Inquisition moreover is not a monolithic bloc of "HERESY! BURN THEM!" idiots. Inquisitors do in fact understand that some leeway is necessary for the effective defense of the Imperium. Hell, the entire Ciaphas Cain novel series is supposedly the secret memoirs of how an Imperial hero was in fact a massive coward who just wanted to hide from the fighting... and yet it's apparently avidly read by the Inquisition itself in-universe.

And you left out the passage where Amberly comments that the Inquisitors disbelieve her and Cain account of what happens. She even clearly states that they read it as an adventure story.

Oh for fuck's sake...

Pain Rack, stop being a moron driving this thread forwad into oblivious stupidity because you can't fucking read.

I said "The Inquisition moreover is not a monolithic bloc of "HERESY! BURN THEM!" idiots". I did not say all of the Inquisition believe in sugar, sweet, and everything nice. I am saying that some Inquisitors believe in giving experienced operators some leeway. That's why we having fucking Puritans, Radicals, and all of the in-betweens.

So will you stop this stupid game of "My examples are better than yours!"? Two thirds of this thread revolves around you deliberately ignoring the fact that for every example you bring up, there's a counter-example showing just the opposite.

[Zinegata]

Excuse me, Zinnegata argues that the Deathwatch is an entirely different war fighting machine, or iow, that there are things that only the Deathwatch can do or do so much better than other chapters. This simply isn't clear.

No, this is not what I'm saying you lying twit. Answer Imperial Overlord's argument and stop using your continued and deliberate misrepresentation of my arguments.

One example does not standard procedure make.

[Zinegata]

This too varies; there are novels where only one squad or a few individual Marines are deployed to deal with a problem. It depends on the scale of the problem and what's available at the time- sending one squad to go deal with a petty rebellion or stage a raid on an isolated target may actually be enough, if it's handled properly.

Yeah, but I'm talking about what's the norm over what's the exception. Again, it's very rare to see the fluff talk about individual Space Marine squads, and more often they talk about the number of companies deployed in a campaign.

Novels do tend to focus on individuals, but that's a consequence of storytelling. Novels are meant to tell the stories of highly remarkable individuals. That's why you have the bulk of a Ciaphas Cain novel talking about the said Commissar's actions, and yet only have a cursory mention of it (often in Amberley's extracts) about the thousands of others who fought the main battle.

[NecronLord]

Painrack: You're not seeing this from the appropriately grimdark point of view.

Knowledge is Power. Guard it well.

Yes, disseminating knowledge is good, in the real world. It's *not* always good in 40K. The Deathwatch knows about the C'tan, for instance. Other space marines, as a rule, do not. This seems unwise...

But I've made a straight-up case on here several times for why a C'tan victory is the best feisable outcome for humans in the 40K setting. What if a regular, not-constantly-watched-by-the-Inquisition chapter decided they agreed with my logic? Say, the Iron Hands.

Heresy.

How many people died in the Badab war? Just one piece of dangerous knowledge about the many terrifying dangers, or worse, possible advantages, posed by Xenos could start a new one, and kill that many people.

That's the reason the Imperium does not disseminate knowledge; because knowledge is, in the 40K setting, dangerous.

[PainRack]

Oh for fuck's sake...

Pain Rack, stop being a moron driving this thread forwad into oblivious stupidity because you can't fucking read.

I said "The Inquisition moreover is not a monolithic bloc of "HERESY! BURN THEM!" idiots". I did not say all of the Inquisition believe in sugar, sweet, and everything nice. I am saying that some Inquisitors believe in giving experienced operators some leeway. That's why we having fucking Puritans, Radicals, and all of the in-betweens.

So will you stop this stupid game of "My examples are better than yours!"? Two thirds of this thread revolves around you deliberately ignoring the fact that for every example you bring up, there's a counter-example showing just the opposite.

Guess what? I don't disagree that the Inquisition isn't a monolithic bloc of heresy,burn them.

I AM on the other hand explictly pointing out that your example missed out an important subtext. That many of the Inquisitors who read the stories couldn't believe Cain claims of cowardice. Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Inquisition approves of Cain, the Coward. This isn't to say they disprove of him, but your example isn't proof.

It gets even more annoying because you claimed that for every example I bring up, there's a counter-example. Say what? You HAVEN"T brought any examples here. Fuck this. Apart from the Red Scorpions, something which has no fucking relevance to why the Deathwatch as it exists is better,show me where you have actually quoted or brought anything of actual substance in this thread, with quotes from fluff. What you have done is merely "assert" things. The Deathwatch is a totally different war fighting machine.

Excuse me, Zinnegata argues that the Deathwatch is an entirely different war fighting machine, or iow, that there are things that only the Deathwatch can do or do so much better than other chapters. This simply isn't clear.

No, this is not what I'm saying you lying twit. Answer Imperial Overlord's argument and stop using your continued and deliberate misrepresentation of my arguments.

One example does not standard procedure make.

So REALLY.... what IS your point then? That the Deathwatch fights mostly in squad based tactics and Space Marines don't?

You accused me of not reading the fluff, and I literally poured the fluff that shows you that yes, they do. AGAIN, its canon that Dante despatched several squads to hold the vital bridgeheads that cut off the Ork retreat. Its canon that Codex Chaos space marines say that Space Marines are broken up to fight all over the sector, leaving them alone and vulnerable to turning to Chaos.

You want codex fluff? I GIVEN you codex fluff. Find me a quote that overturns Codex Chaos Space Marine then, since you insist that its abnormal for Space Marines to be deployed at squad level.
I can even go into how the Codex Astartes is stated to be so fluid, that it supposedly covers fighting entire campaigns, guerilla warfare and small unit actions.

So, you made this claim.

Again, the Deathwatch is a fundamentally different war fighting unit compared to a Space Marine Chapter. A Space Marine Chapter is like a modern-day Ranger battalion - composed of elite troops, but their primary mission fundamentally remains conventional warfare.

Show me where on god green earth that the Space Marines fundamentally remains "conventional warfare". I shown you the scope of the Deathwatch missions and the normal Space Marine missions.
What is different is merely tactics, in that the Deathwatch tailor special squads for a specific mission but a Space Marine chapter doesn't.

Are you going to clarify this statement now? Because you CAN"T fucking accuse me of failing to reply to your arguments because this is WHAT I was replying to. That the Deathwatch missions aren't fundamentally different from a normal Marine chapter, and we can see this in A, B, C, D, E and etc.

[PainRack]

Painrack: You're not seeing this from the appropriately grimdark point of view.

Knowledge is Power. Guard it well.

Yes, disseminating knowledge is good, in the real world. It's *not* always good in 40K. The Deathwatch knows about the C'tan, for instance. Other space marines, as a rule, do not. This seems unwise...

That's the reason the Imperium does not disseminate knowledge; because knowledge is, in the 40K setting, dangerous.

Meh. My OP should had been clearer. I went into this trying to find a silver lining, to see why the Deathwatch as it is now functions better than a normal Space Marine unit.
Ditto to Guardsmen and Comissars. Comissars work in the Wh40k universe, because they provide leadership and a uniform training/doctrine that intergrates diverse IG regiments to fight together as a coherent whole. Imperium tactics/strategy is also robust enough that it allows them to work with the unique quirks, advantages and etc that each Regiment has. So, there's a silver lining.

So, ideally, there "should" be a silver lining for the Deathwatch as well. The argument that they're elite commandoes doesn't really work in the universe. Its the same reason why I didn't respond to Imperial Overlord post about the actual founding of the Deathwatch and inertia. Yeah, inertia probably does explain why the Deathwatch still functions the way it does now, but there SHOULD be a silver lining damn it.


As it is, posters posting about the dissemination of anti-xeno knowledge/tactics to the chapter.... that works. The argument otoh that the Deathwatch training is special and unique...... I'm STILL waiting for people to explain to me what so special and unique about the training other than the fact that the Inquisition has more knowledge that it doesn't share with others. Because it isn't.

[Zinegata]

Guess what? I don't disagree that the Inquisition isn't a monolithic bloc of heresy,burn them.

Then your post was a complete waste of time. Because the only point of the post was to say it's not a monolithic bloc

Say what? You HAVEN"T brought any examples here.

Are you on fucking crack? I have already shown several examples that Marines do in fact generally deploy at company strength or Chapter strength, as opposed to squad level. Including:

* The first Taros battle (an "assassination mission")
* The Red Scorpion deployment at Vraks.

Not to mention that it's the case in the vast majority of the fluff. Seriously:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M41

The word "squad" does not appear even once in the whole fucking timeline for M41. By contrast, there are numerous instances of "Chapters" and "Companies" being deployed.

Again, people have been telling you this over and over: Deathwatch specialize in small units. Space Marine Chapters may be good at this too (and may sometimes be even better than the DW), but they don't necessarily specialize in it.

Again, really, the fucking Gaunt's Ghosts - a bunch of regular humans - conducted at least three high-level assassination missions during the SWC. Should we therefore conclude that Marines should be abolished and Guardsmen are superior assassins? Because this is precisely the argument you're making when you're citing individual examples, but make no move to actually show a comprehensive body of evidence proving that squad-level deployments are the norm for Space Marines. As the timeline demonstrates, there isn't even one fucking squad-level SM deployment that was worth noting.

Admit you're fucking wrong and move on.

[NecronLord]

Meh. My OP should had been clearer. I went into this trying to find a silver lining, to see why the Deathwatch as it is now functions better than a normal Space Marine unit.

I should think that's easy. They are able to replace losses quickly. If the Deathwatch were wiped out to the same degree the Scythes of the Emperor were, for instance, they could be rebuilt in numbers within the year.

No fucking about with scouts. No worries about Gene Seed. Just the remaining Watch Captains having to write a lot of letters to other space marines requesting new candidates.

[Zinegata]

Meh. My OP should had been clearer. I went into this trying to find a silver lining, to see why the Deathwatch as it is now functions better than a normal Space Marine unit.

I should think that's easy. They are able to replace losses quickly. If the Deathwatch were wiped out to the same degree the Scythes of the Emperor were, for instance, they could be rebuilt in numbers within the year.

No fucking about with scouts. No worries about Gene Seed. Just the remaining Watch Captains having to write a lot of letters to other space marines requesting new candidates.

And as I've already mentioned, you also get the luxury of being able to get "mission specialists" who are even better than the regular Space Marine at a particular task.

Need a Rhino driver? Add a White Scar to the team. Need somebody who's used to cold weather and is great at melee? Take a Space Wolf along.

[Black Admiral]

The first Taros battle (an "assassination mission")

As I pointed out, your attempt to characterise the Avenging Sons' deployment on Taros as an assassination is wrong. Yes, one of their objectives offing the planetary governor. What it was not, however, was the end goal of the mission but one of several interleaved means to an end - specifically, bringing Taros back under Imperial rule, and demonstrating to the Tau that the Imperium both could and would fight for the place. Captain Amaros was entirely prepared to start flattening chunks of Tarokeen with the Proxima Justus' bombardment cannon in order to achieve those objectives; at the point where orbital strikes are on the table it strikes me that "assassination" has long since departed the mission type description.

Indeed, it's explicitly remarked on in IA3 that just sending a Temple Assassin after Planetary Governor Aulis was discussed, but dismissed because offing him wouldn't, on its own, eliminate the problem.

[Zinegata]

The first Taros battle (an "assassination mission")

As I pointed out, your attempt to characterise the Avenging Sons' deployment on Taros as an assassination is wrong. Yes, one of their objectives offing the planetary governor. What it was not, however, was the end goal of the mission but one of several interleaved means to an end - specifically, bringing Taros back under Imperial rule, and demonstrating to the Tau that the Imperium both could and would fight for the place. Captain Amaros was entirely prepared to start flattening chunks of Tarokeen with the Proxima Justus' bombardment cannon in order to achieve those objectives; at the point where orbital strikes are on the table it strikes me that "assassination" has long since departed the mission type description.

Indeed, it's explicitly remarked on in IA3 that just sending a Temple Assassin after Planetary Governor Aulis was discussed, but dismissed because just offing him wouldn't, on its own, eliminate the problem.

And did you notice how entirely self-contradictory your position is? As you pointed out, they decided between an outright assassination (Temple Assassin) or assassination + "demonstration of Imperial power to bring back Imperial rule" (Use an entire Space Marine company).

The option involving the use of a single squad of Space Marines to assassinate the governor was never even brought up. So really, if deploying individual squads of Space Marines was a common undertaking, as opposed to an exception to the rule, why was this option not even brought up?

The answer of course is simple: The Space Marines company deployments are the norm. Squad level deployments are not. Heck, the Taros campaign actually implies it is easier and more common to simply send out an Imperial Assassin (which requires approvel of the High Lords of Terra), rather than to ask a chapter to deploy just one squad of Space Marines to do a "hit".

[Black Admiral]

And did you notice how entirely self-contradictory your position is? As you pointed out, they decided between an outright assassination (Temple Assassin) or assassination + "demonstration of Imperial power to bring back Imperial rule" (Use an entire Space Marine company).

The option involving the use of a single squad of Space Marines to assassinate the governor was never even brought up. So really, if deploying individual squads of Space Marines was a common undertaking, as opposed to an exception to the rule, why was this option not even brought up?

Because the entire point is that just assassinating the planetary governor wouldn't solve the fucking problem. This is spelled out explicitly in IA3;

Action needed to be taken, swift action to end the problem. Amongst the upper ranks of the Adeptus Terra it was decided that the planetary governor should be removed and replaced with a more trustworthy candidate. The Administratum started to consider its options. The first and most obvious option was to contact the Officio Assassinroum and secretly dispatch one of the Imperium's most lethal weapons to Taros. Maybe a servant of the Vindicare temple to execute the Governor for his crime with a single well placed snipe shot to the head, or a servant of the Callidus temple could infiltrate his organisation and get close enough for a silent knife in the dark. But the simple death of the planetary governor would not solve the problem. Taros was close to the Tau Empire, and an obvious prospect for Tau expansionist ambitions. The Imperium needed to send the aliens a strong message - that Tau interference on Taros would not be tolerated. The problem was not just the planetary governor, it was also the Tau. Simply assassinating Lord Aulis would not deter their ambitions.

The Officio Assassinorum was ruled out in favour of a bolder, larger plan - a coup d'etat. A strike force would target the planetary governor and his supporters. Using maximum force they would demonstrate to Tau observers the Emperor's will to hold on to Taros. Once the operation was complete, the strike force would become a temporary garrison to deter any Tau counter-attacks. There was only one force capable of such a mission at short notice, the Adeptus Astartes.
- Imperial Armour Volume Three: The Taros Campaign, pg.. 17

Emphasis mine.