What if Kirk listened to Saavik?

[Multiverse]

1. I am not Batman

2. The links I posted above give the length of the refit Constitution class as 305 meters and the length of the Miranda class as 243 meters. Granted the numbers are from a fan site that, while seemingly well researched, is not itself cannon. Also, the source I mentioned did not give numbers for width. Nonetheless, without a better source that also includes numbers, I must side with Batman on the issue of whose estimate was more accurate.

[Flagg]

Who the fuck cares about length you twat? They're talking about volume.

[Stark]

1. I am not Batman

Good for you, he's a fucking moron who talks about himself in the third person.

2. The links I posted above give the length of the refit Constitution class as 305 meters and the length of the Miranda class as 243 meters. Granted the numbers are from a fan site that, while seemingly well researched, is not itself cannon. Also, the source I mentioned did not give numbers for width. Nonetheless, without a better source that also includes numbers, I must side with Batman on the issue of whose estimate was more accurate.

One dimension is not volume, thank you for playing.

It's a sad commentary when the guy who didn't want to get involved in an examination ends up having to school people who don't even remember what the ship looks like, and then gets people sneeringly referring to 'your estimate'. PROTIP: Stofsk and I were able to have a discussion before Batman showed up with his vague misrememberings and finger-pointing. It's just a giant lol that such accepted wisdom is so tenuous that its bold champions can't provide any evidence beyond 'oh I think maybe' and 'I don't remember' and 'oh it's longer'.

Looking at actual diagrams, in raw volume they're similar, even if Reliant has more useable floorspace and Enterprise is probably slightly larger. So much for 'not much more than the saucer'.

[Multiverse]

Who the fuck cares about length you twat? They're talking about volume.

I do not understand your question. Also, the links I provided seem to indicate that Reliant is smaller.

[Multiverse]

Looking at actual diagrams, in raw volume they're similar, even if Reliant has more useable floorspace and Enterprise is probably slightly larger. So much for 'not much more than the saucer'.

If I understand correctly you seem to be saying that, while the two ships are similar, Enterprise is slightly larger. I agree. I admit to contributing to the digression but can we now get back to discussing the actual topic of the thread.

[Darth Tedious]

Who the fuck cares about length you twat? They're talking about volume.

I do not understand your question. Also, the links I provided seem to indicate that Reliant is smaller.

You seem to have completely missed Flagg's point, which was that those said links state the Miranda class is shorter. Volume is 3-dimensional.


Here's a side-on scale view. Combine that with the top-down view that Stark supplied (which appears to have possibly come from the same page you cited) and you get a much better idea of actual volume.

Personally, I'd agree with Stark's estimate that the two classes are remarkably similar in actual volume. The Constitution Class may be marginally larger, but also wastes more space.

[Flagg]

Who the fuck cares about length you twat? They're talking about volume.

I do not understand your question. Also, the links I provided seem to indicate that Reliant is smaller.

Are... Are you mentally retarded? Because if so I apologize for calling you a twat.


Definition of LENGTH
1
a : the longer or longest dimension of an object b : a measured distance or dimension <10 feet in length> — see metric system table, weight table c : the quality or state of being long

Definition of VOLUME
3
: the amount of space occupied by a three-dimensional object as measured in cubic units (as quarts or liters) : cubic capacity

[Captain Seafort]

Oh FFS...

Refit Connie volume - 235,000 m^3
Miranda volume - 218,000 m^3

Source Yeah, yeah, I know. So sue me.

[Stark]

Once you remove the relatively useless volumes (like the neck and pylons) I'm glad someone actually compared models.

[Darth Tedious]

Most of the numbers there seem to be pretty reasonable (excluding the windowlickingly inaccurate DS sizes).

Really, we need some stats for actual power generation/shields/armament for the ships to make a better comparison...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Reliant has IIRC two forward and two aft torpedoe tubes and two phaser batteries, all mounted on the rollbar. Enterprise has two forward tubes and three phaser batteries on the underside of the saucer and presumably the same on the top.

Plus I am fairly certain that we see Enterprise firing after torpedoes at some point.

Either way, I think a key point is that even if Kirk listened to Saavik and raised shields, he would not have fired the first shot at another Starfleet vessel. He would only have fired if either a) Khan shoots first or b) Khan reveals himself.

So Enterprise is going to take some hits regardless.

[Stravo]

Just wanted to add on the point regarding the relative inexperience of Kahn's crew vs. Kirk, let's remember that Kirk has a trainee crew on board and their inexperience clearly shows in the first battle when the engineering section is hit they utterly panic and get the hell out of there while only Preston stays at his post. In other battles depicted the engineering teams don't break and run from their posts unless given an order by their chief engineer like for example an imminent warp core breach. So I think in terms of relative crew competence its actually very much on par - raw recruits v. inexperienced supermen.

In terms of the ship design there is something to be said that the Miranda class is still regularly seen on front line duty during the Dominion War while the Constitution class is not. Although not direct evidence this may speak to the overall effectiveness of the class vs. the Constitution. Non Canon gaming materials such as the FASA combat game from the 80's had the Miranda class just a notch below the Constitution in terms of firepower and power generation.

[Batman]

1. I am not Batman

Good for you, he's a fucking moron who talks about himself in the third person.

You're the one who has a problem with me talking about myself in the first person you know

2. The links I posted above give the length of the refit Constitution class as 305 meters and the length of the Miranda class as 243 meters. Granted the numbers are from a fan site that, while seemingly well researched, is not itself cannon. Also, the source I mentioned did not give numbers for width. Nonetheless, without a better source that also includes numbers, I must side with Batman on the issue of whose estimate was more accurate.

One dimension is not volume, thank you for playing.

What he said. If you want to be nitpicky even three dimensions aren't volume, knowing how long, wide and tall a ship is dooesn't tell one jack shit unless one actually knows the shape of the ship.

Looking at actual diagrams, in raw volume they're similar, even if Reliant has more useable floorspace and Enterprise is probably slightly larger. So much for 'not much more than the saucer'.

That diagram isn't exactly accurate you know, my guess would be it's either for one of the TNG era Mirandas or just plain not that adherent to the model (Reliant's upper additions to the saucer didn't narrow as severely, the rear edge didn't taper as strongly, and the extension of the saucer wasn't quite as long) but you were quite correct about me misjudging the amount of volume those expansions added to the Miranda, so you win.

As for relative crew experience-Kirk may have had mostly raw recruits (the bridge crew, CMO, and chief engineer were veterans) but at least they were a complete crew that knew the equipment. Khan himself couldn't find the override for Kirk's prefix gimmick in time, and I doubt the rest of his 'supermen' are any more familiar with Starfleet systems than he is, and how many of those (likely completely unfamiliar with the controls) people does he have?

As for the Miranda still being around for the Dominion war that may simply be due to there having been built a fuckton of them because they were cheap compared to a Constitution.

[JME2]

As for the Miranda still being around for the Dominion war that may simply be due to there having been built a fuckton of them because they were cheap compared to a Constitution.

And inexpensive to refit compared to building newer class ships.

One of my roommates in college and I used to joke about how their sole purpose in the War was to be cannon fodder for the Jem'Hadar.

[TC Pilot]

Has anyone considered Khan might just GTFO if Enterprise raises her shields? I think he has Genesis already, and he hadn't even seen Kirk yet, so it's not like he'll be goaded into a fight like at the end when Kirk takes a shot at his pride.

As for Khan's crew, they seem capable enough at their task. They may not have any experience with starships, but they're supposed to be vastly more intelligent than regular humans, and they never seem to fumble with any controls or systems when they're raising shields, changing speed, or targetting or firing weapons. Hell, they even knew what Enterprise damaged when they opened fire. The only thing they had trouble with was finding the prefix code's override (complete with that "looking at a screen of buttons" shot).

Just wanted to add on the point regarding the relative inexperience of Kahn's crew vs. Kirk, let's remember that Kirk has a trainee crew on board and their inexperience clearly shows in the first battle when the engineering section is hit they utterly panic and get the hell out of there while only Preston stays at his post. In other battles depicted the engineering teams don't break and run from their posts unless given an order by their chief engineer like for example an imminent warp core breach. So I think in terms of relative crew competence its actually very much on par - raw recruits v. inexperienced supermen.

I'm pretty sure they didn't rout so much as evacuate. Khan hit the Enterprise directly in the engineering section ("they knew exactly where to hit us"), and we immediately see emergency bulkheads closing, gas spraying everywhere, and people (like Scotty) rushing for breath masks.

[FaxModem1]

Has anyone considered Khan might just GTFO if Enterprise raises her shields? I think he has Genesis already, and he hadn't even seen Kirk yet, so it's not like he'll be goaded into a fight like at the end when Kirk takes a shot at his pride.

He didn't get Genesis until after Kirk and company landed on Regula and Khan's double agents were able to pinpoint where it was.

[Purple]

In my fanfiction, Khan realized his plan didn't work and bugged out. Kirk continued to Regula and tried to figure out what was going on there.

But, while he was on the surface, Khan surprised the Enterprise and destroyed her, leaving Kirk marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet, buried alive.

buried alive


KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN


Fast-forward twenty years. Khan has conquered the alpha quadrent. The KSS Unreliable is scouting planetoids to mine to build more ships for his next target - the Delta Quadrent.

They think Regula looks like a good thing to mine but find some life inside so they beam down.....

Could you link me to it? I have been looking for it in the forum here but I can't find it. And it sounds like a good read.

[JME2]

Yeah, I'd love to see this, too. It sounds interesting.

[Purple]

Well, if you ever do make it give us a link.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I'm in the camp that says that Khan wouldn't try a direct attack if it looked like Kirk has cottoned to him and he no longer had the advantage of surprise. Most of Khan's plans in that movie involved some degree of subterfuge - hiding a couple sleeper agents in the station so that Kirk could lead him to Genesis, for example - and in Space Seed it's not like his first action once he got his gang together was RAAGH I WILL DESTROY YOU. He only gets into straight fights when he's goaded into it. Otherwise he only makes a move when he's rigged the deck in his favour.

I'm not sure if his pride would allow him to, say, issue a false surrender so that he could get aboard the Enterprise (and against a crew of raw recruits the exact same plan from Space Seed would have a lot more legs behind it, I wager), but the part of my mind that thinks 'KHAN IS AWESOME AND A GENIUS MUSCLEY DICTATOR THEREFORE IN MY IMAGINATION HE WINS ALL WITH HIS SMOULDERING LATIN SIKH CHARISMA' says that he could come up with some convincing trickery.

[Stark]

That said, Khan's sense of Kirk was really, really out of date. He's not psychic; he just gambled that with Reliant he could sneak up on Kirk and deliver a crippling blow. Kirk had changed a great deal, but Khan had no way of knowing Kirk had lost his fingertip feel for crisis and danger. Kirk was wrong, but Khan didn't have any way of knowing he could react this way. Khan is wetting his pants with excitement as they close in and I'm not sure 'oh well, we'll back off and try something else' fits too well with Moby Dick. He's certainly happy to tell his crew to shut up when he's driven by his obsession.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Yeah, I can't see Khan pulling out and waiting for a better chance. He was going to confront Kirk then and there. But I can see him getting that look that Ricardo Montalban did so well where you can tell a bunch of cogs are whirring in his head and then trying a different tack - say, opening a comm, admitting that he's Khan, and trying to bluff his way on to the Enterprise or bluff Enterprise senior staff on to the Reliant for negotiations or somesuch. Or whatever. When his plan to use the Reliant captain to assassinate Kirk failed, and Kirk started goading him, he didn't lose control right then - he sat back, re-evaluated the situation and his options, and changed his approach.

I do agree that he wouldn't run away with Genesis and have Crazy Superman Star Adventures, though - the Moby Dick/ Paradise Lost thing (what Space Seed failed to mention at the end is that IMMEDIATELY AFTER REACHING HELL, Satan starts plotting to get his revenge by trying to hurt God by whatever means he can even if he has no chance of winning, solely out of spite). Genesis was only a way of getting to Kirk, or perhaps a way for Khan in his more lucid moments to convince himself that he still had bigger designs and dreams than the genetically inferior captain who emasculated him and then killed his wife and his colony, and he wasn't just a half-insane shadow of himself driven by rage and vengeance.

[Skylon]

I'm pretty sure they didn't rout so much as evacuate. Khan hit the Enterprise directly in the engineering section ("they knew exactly where to hit us"), and we immediately see emergency bulkheads closing, gas spraying everywhere, and people (like Scotty) rushing for breath masks.

They are scrambling like crazy. You see several grabbing onto the one man lift in engineering to get the fuck out. I think it was cut from the Director's Edition DVD, but the original cut you hear Scotty yell "Get back to your posts!" Several engineers do go for their oxygen masks, but they all have black collars and looked somewhat older, indicating they were the experienced officers/instructors. All the trainees had red collars, and were not seen doing that. You also have Scotty's dialogue about Preston staying at his post while the other trainees ran.

FYI: I always loved the sequence where Enterprise gets nailed in engineering. It raised the stakes, and created more drama than any exploding console could have. There's also lots of neat details like the above with the veteran engineers, the internal comm channels on the Enterprise being overrun with chatter as Kirk attempts to get a damage report from Scotty, and my favorite - McCoy, without a word, leaving the bridge once the shooting starts - no line's needed, he knows shits bad, he knows there will be casualties.