Deathwatch vs Space marines

[Zinegata]

Your quoting remains irrelevant. Again, it does not matter what the final course of action was. We're talking about the options they considered. And again, it was:

a) Assassination via Temple Assassin (requiring High Lord of Terra approval)
b) Send in the Marines!

In fact, let's see how they described Option A:

The first and most obvious option was to contact the Officio Assassinroum and secretly dispatch one of the Imperium's most lethal weapons to Taros

Again, why was the first and most obvious option to get an assassin from the Temple, when it turned out they could have deployed Space Marines in the first place? They were ultimately able to deploy an entire Company at Taros. Why was Option A not "Assassination via a squad of Space Marines" instead of getting a Vindicare? Do Space Marines have shitty scouts who don't know how to use a sniper rifle?

The option they ultimately chose is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. I'm not attempting to show that Space Marines are uber killers when deployed as a company. What I'm showing is that squad-level Space Marine deployments are so fucking uncommon that the officials would rather go through the trouble of getting High Lord approval to deploy a Vindicare.

[white_rabbit]

There is a lot of waffling I can't be bothered to dig through, but the existence of the Deathwatch is often "justified" in my mind when I read some of the stories they feature in.

The Deathwatch are rationalised at their most basic as "cool alien hunter specialists". In universe their existence is sustained by the value of being able to call upon a coterie of experienced, well equipped specialists, who are mentally suitable for tasks that might not be suitable for other resources.

I.e. "Go capture the super-regenerating mutant Trygon locked inside an Eldar sarcophagus prison, leave no witnesses "

The Salamanders are an extreme example, but quite a few marine chapters might balk at the leave no witnesses bit, more so at the "capture the alien " bit etc.

With the Deathwatch, you don't have to cock about trying to placate Chapter Master Throbbing Vein after you ask him to use an alien forcefield generator to close a Krull warp rift, or whatever. You don't need to explain to the Salamander commander why he's got to nuke a city, you aren't stuck with keeping these guys happy, and not ruining the Inquisitorial relationship with Chapter No XYZ.

The Deathwatchers are sworn to secrecy, they are indoctrinated to obey the Inquisition, they are mentally prepared to deal with literally alien psychologies on a scale that isn't simply " kill them the best" as it might also be required that you "don't" kill the aliens.

The Deathwatchers might occasionally be upset, but they do as they are fucking told, and are extremely motivated to do so. This will not be the case for everyone.

The "silver lining" that Painrack is waffling about is that the Deathwatch do as they are fucking told, and if you don't like how one of them is doing his job, he gets sent back, and you go pick another super-competent guy to do his job, without having to cock about training him from scratch.

Its "assemble team of specialists, have them do stuff that is potentially "illegal" and "immoral" in many senses of the word, and then have them shut up and never tell anybody about it when you are finished with them"

I can't for the life of me understand how Painrack has managed to even make this thread, its not exactly fucking rocket science. Sure, there could be some stuff done differently, but the rational for the Deathwatch isn't hidden behind layers of interpretation and shit.

Its there so Inquisitors can have "dream teams" of superhuman killing machines at their beck and call, without oversight from their arsehole prig commanders, and have them do dangerous and illegal shit under the radar, as well as having a bunch of them around to troubleshoot or assassinate guys "on tap".

A bunch of marines might be able to do just as well in some respects, particularly if they are given some cool stuff like the Deathwatch. Hell, they might even get called back time and time again, or seconded to the Inquisition if they do well, and they get more experienced so become more usefulohwaitthatsprobablyhowthedeathwatchstarted.

[Imperial Overlord]

Excuse me, Zinnegata argues that the Deathwatch is an entirely different war fighting machine, or iow, that there are things that only the Deathwatch can do or do so much better than other chapters. This simply isn't clear.

It is clear. You've merely refused to accept it when it's been repeatedly mentioned that Deathwatch specializes in small scale deployments, unlike other chapters.

Oh right. By recruiting from the chapters who DO fight such xeno threats.

Ok.... but this means, the Deathwatch has more "elite" troopers, doesn't it? That will make it a more effective fighting force against xenos, right?

Yes, starting with well trained and experienced troopers and then giving them more knowledge, training, and having them focus on the specific kinds of missions they will be expected to undertake instead of training for all possible missions a normal chapter might undertake.

Prove it. Military science has shown that given the lethality of modern day weapons, after a certain stage, there simply isn't any more discernable advantage to being "more skilled".

Prove that adage applies to Space Marines on Deathwatch missions.

It suggests that Deathwatch Space Marines AREN"t likely to survive their tour of duty.

The only thing that passage suggests is that long service with the Deathwatch is dangerous.

Again, where is this so called "elite" expertise in squad level combat that a normal Space Marine doesn't possess? Given what we know of military tactics and science, I could actually convincing argue that if the Deathwatch deploy in larger numbers more routinely, casualties would actually be lesser. This MUST be the case because elite space Marines, faced with the kind of threats the Deathwatch undergo do expect to have most of their brothers return back alive.

The Deathwatch isn't deployed on those kinds of missions because large scale combats are better handed by ordinary chapters, the Imperial Guard, Inquisition Stormtroopers, and so on with the Deathwatch present only as advisers.

Note that we haven't actually discussed their training. Let's use the rulebook again, shall we?

The Brother
might have experienced combat against a hundred different
alien races, but there are many thousands more he may never
have encountered or even heard of. The Deathwatch takes it
upon itself to pass on every shred of knowledge possible to
its warriors, through a myriad of different means.
The newly recruited Brother is initially subjected to a
gruelling regime of hypno-indoctrination, in which his
subconscious mind is filled to overflowing with the details of
every known intelligent race, and many classed as mindless,
yet highly dangerous animals. This process merely lays the
groundwork for further schooling and study, which unlocks
the full potential of the Space Marine’s superior mental
capacity. A warrior faced with a foe he has never before
encountered may thus find that he recalls the exact weak spot
that must be targeted in order to it strike down.
Hypno-indoctrination is but the lesser part of a Deathwatch
Space Marine’s preparation, however, and he undertakes
constant training in the methods required to combat specific
enemies. While much of this training is theoretical, some is
very real indeed. The Brother may be required to enter a
sealed beast-chamber in which a captured alien combatant
is entrapped. He is not allowed to exit until he has killed it,
often armed with only his combat knife, with his bare hands
and teeth or without his armour. Only when the Brother’s
Watch Captain is satisfied that he is ready, and the Watch
Commander concurs, is he authorised to take his place in a
Kill-team and undertake his first mission.

Again. Just WHAT is so special and exotic about this training that doesn't exist with any other Chapter? The sole difference is the insitutional knowledge the Inquisition/Deathwatch possess.

The knowledge is considerable and closely held. Then there are the resources. How many chapters keep live Orcs/Tau/Kroot/Whatever as training targets? I can name one and that's the Blood Gorgons, who are Traitor Marines based on a space hulk.

Frankly, knowledge that should be more readily disseminated to normal space marines. Imagine what would had happened in WW2 if the Thatcher weave hadn't been disseminated, or the Zero weak spots disseminated more widely amongst US pilots? Proponents who argue that the Deathwatch store of theoretical knowledge is superior than normal Marine chapters are arguing this right now.

Institutional paranoia is primarily responsible, which is more understandable when ready access to knowledge is dangerous (see just about anything about Chaos and the C'tan). Also Space Marines on the other side of the galaxy don't need to know the latest anti-Tau small unit doctrine when their primary problem is Ork Waaghs.

[PainRack]

sigh.

1. again,my dispute is Not "deathwatch specialise in small units tactics." its with the assumption that because of this,they"re able to pull off missions other chapters can"t do. Again, i quote zinnegata statement that the marines specialise in conventional warfare, the equivalent of rangers vs the deathwatch green berets.

How is this actually shown? The scope of missions done by the deathwatch are identical. The resources aren"t, but this does not equate to them being superior.

2. If you wish to say that marine chapters do not routinely deploy in squad level,i demand to know the standard of evidence required. I had provided mutiple incidents. Along with codex fluff that says they do.,along with the attendant risks this involves.

I had even ventured into campaings.where the marines do deploy mutiple companies,but actually engaged their missions and secured their tactical objectives at squad level. I simply have no idea what standard of evidence will satisfy you. Just What will justify this as normal? Codex fluff saying that marine chapters doing this is now apparently not considered the norm... So, what is?

3. you claimed that the deathwatch is superior at fighting xeno threats compared to normal chapters. that isn"t the source of contention,despite what u and zinnegata think. My dispute was with zinnegata statement that deathwatch fight so differently from normal chapters that it requires their special formation. This is clearly false. Even the deathwatch expertise in fighting xenos....is gained from actually recruiting said expertise from the normal chapters.

With regards to special training, i will argue that sending in scouts on the battlefield itself to fight against live orks,tyrannids,even the actual common practice of boarding hive ships are analogus to the use of livefire training against captured specimens.

Also,can we standardise nomenclature?missions doesn"t explicitly mean squad unit actions and company. its... irritating because we switching between tactical objectives, tactics and roles during the discussion. Case in point, i used the word mission to describe objectives, you reebutted by saying said mission is better justified by normal chapters and larger detachments.

[Zinegata]

1. again,my dispute is Not "deathwatch specialise in small units tactics." its with the assumption that because of this,they"re able to pull off missions other chapters can"t do. Again, i quote zinnegata statement that the marines specialise in conventional warfare, the equivalent of rangers vs the deathwatch green berets.

Yeah, because again if you'd look at the M41 timeline you see not a single mention of a single squad deployment by the Space Marines. What you do see are company level or even Chapter level deployments. You can cover your ears and go LALALALA, but that ironclad evidence hasn't been refuted at all.

And as Black Admiral already demonstrated in Taros, moving up to a company-level assault is an entirely different thing. A squad of marines might have assassinated the governor, but it wouldn't have been able to crush any rebel elements or intimidated the populace into surrender. A company-level deployment can, because it's not a mere SpecOp job. It's a full-scale assault.

Moreover, it's worth noting that the Taros assault did involve numerous "exotic" means of insertion - including the use of air assault assets and teleportation units. These are all kit used by "elite" forces (Rangers), but it's worth noting that these different elements were acting together in concert as part of a combined force. Thunderhawks provided air support after landing the troops. Troopers on the ground deployed homers for the teleporting Terminators. By and large, the squads deployed at Taros fought as part of a detailed battle plan. An individual squad may have fought some actions "alone", but even then they could still call for support from their fellow Marines (at least until the plan totally went south).

By contrast, take a look at the Deathwatch missions in Oblivion's Edge (from the RPG). It's about one squad, operating all alone, in a city full of hostile Xenos. They do not have the benefit of Thunderhawks flown by their battle-brothers. They aren't carrying teleporters to call in waiting Terminators. The four Deathwatch Marines are completely on their own, except for whatever local assets they can recruit (consisting of regular PDF, vigilantes, and militia - completely different from reliable Space Marines that they've trained with for decades).

In short, stop fucking mistaking "squad level actions" with "squad level deployments". The former happens all of the time as part of a larger deployment, but it's completely different from dropping just one squad all alone on a hostile planet. Pretending there's no difference is just rank dishonesty.

------

And comparing it to real world militaries, it's really very similar to what Green Berets/Delta Force operators do.

Take for instance the Mogadishu operation ("Black Hawk Down"). Delta Force soldiers were operating amongst the civilian Somali population, gathering intelligence on the target. They were doing this on their own without any real back up.

The Rangers, by contrast, were deployed as a conventional unit. They performed some methods used by elite troops (i.e. air assault), but you didn't have squads of rangers patrolling the streets of Mogadishu gathering intel about the local warlord. They were instead deployed as a company-sized air assault and ground security unit to support Delta.

The Rangers were elite warriors, but they're not the sort that who would excel at the things Delta was doing.

2. If you wish to say that marine chapters do not routinely deploy in squad level,i demand to know the standard of evidence required. I had provided mutiple incidents. Along with codex fluff that says they do.,along with the attendant risks this involves.

I had even ventured into campaings.where the marines do deploy mutiple companies,but actually engaged their missions and secured their tactical objectives at squad level. I simply have no idea what standard of evidence will satisfy you. Just What will justify this as normal? Codex fluff saying that marine chapters doing this is now apparently not considered the norm... So, what is?

Again, in the entire M41 timeline, the word "squad" is not mentioned a single time. And this is a composite timeline that joins together the timeline from multiple codexes, as noted in the source. This isn't up for debate. Unless you can show evidence that squad-level deployments are the norm - refuting the ironclad evidence from the timeline that company-level deployments are the norm - insisting that Marines deployed at the squad level routinely is delusional.

As I showed in the Taros campaign, an individual squad might fight some actions on its own. But in such campaigns it's nonetheless fighting as part of a unit. When things get bad, there are Thunderhawks carrying more Brother-Marines.

This is completely different from the Deathwatch norm of dropping one squad, almost totally unsupported, on a hostile world.

3. you claimed that the deathwatch is superior at fighting xeno threats compared to normal chapters. that isn"t the source of contention,despite what u and zinnegata think. My dispute was with zinnegata statement that deathwatch fight so differently from normal chapters that it requires their special formation. This is clearly false. Even the deathwatch expertise in fighting xenos....is gained from actually recruiting said expertise from the normal chapters.

That's an incredibly dumb argument. You're saying the Deathwatch isn't that good because they're actually "stealing" the skills off other Chapters? Do you realize that modern-day special forces often do recruit their manpower from other elite units? Or that they cross-train because they recognize some recruits may be better at somethings than others?

Fuck, that's half of the point of recruiting from existing Space Marine chapters - if you want a badass squad, you have to get Marines from badass units.

Moreover, you again completely ignore that there are things Deathwatch operators can do that they cannot in their home chapters. Another example: Say you need a piece of Xenos flesh analyzed. The fastest way to do it is to have a Marine taste the flesh. Back in his home Chapter, an Ultramarine may get sanctioned for doing something that could be mistaken as the act of a cannibal or heretic. But in the Deathwatch, that's a completely valid tactical move that he won't suffer sanctions from.

Like it or not, freedom of action is a hugely important aspect of successful military operations.

[Elessar]

The inqisition already maintains the watch fortresses, equipment and training of the deathwatch. Your simply swapping the overhead of providing specialised training to a marine that is only going to serve a single mission. To training recruits that are yours to use however you wish once they have completed training.

I have brought up multiple examples that a single 'mission' is subject to interpretation and, due to many factors, doesn't seem to be followed in reality. It's inefficient if it were followed to the letter, but the Inquisition bends the rules whenever it feels necessary and this is no different.

I don't know enough about the attrition rate of the deathwatch or hard costs of creating and training a marine to make an accurate comparison on which of those is going to be cheaper. It is entirely possible that having your own chapter gets you superior marines for reduced cost. I see it being about 50/50 on the logistics of the choice. For simple effectiveness on missions I'll take the chapter logically a squad that consistently works together should be superior to one that has just been thrown together just for the mission all other points being about even.

I recommend reading either Space Wolf novel 1 or the Sons of Dorn to get a feel for how difficult it is to train a marine from its raw human form. There's not many quotes that can handily summarize the difficulty and cost, and while it is a wiki this is a quick overview of the difficulty to just go from neophyte to initiate. After this, they still must train as a Scout for years (decades in some examples - the White Scars / Space Wolves). Comparatively, flying through the warp collecting and deploying Space Marines might be 'difficult', but despite the dangers of warp travel, it's clearly the better choice even for the cheaper to raise Imperial Guard.

In fact, given the loss rates of the Guard, it seems very clear that most of the time, the Munitorium picks up a regiment, leaves them on a planet for a single mission, after which they die or (unlikely) move on to the next war zone. They'll shuttle those damn Cadians, Valhallans, and Kriegsmen all over the galaxy (seriously BL authors need to make up some new damn regiments).

I'm not trying to argue that a chapter would make more sense I've just yet to see a reason why a chapter could not perform just as well if your only concern is mission effectiveness. I've already made my point on why I think they chose the the current method over forming a new chapter.

I do agree that regular marines would serve Deathwatch purposes just as well, and feel that the logistics and politics of the Deathwatch make it ultimately a superior model than any number of Space Marine chapters under the Ordo.

[Elessar]

Given the difficulty of warp travel, hell YES. First of all, the Deathwatch does has to have its own repository for geneseed and is responsible for storing and returning geneseed of brothers lost on missions.

The rest is scale of resources. The resources actually expended to train and create an initate from scratch is definitely lesser than actually maintaining and gathering recruits from willing chapters.

Can you provide evidence that collecting Space Marines, giving them additional training on route, and then dropping them on planets is more expensive than creating them from scratch them?

Consider that this model (travel through the warp to deploy soldiers) is followed by the entire Imperial War Machine. Regiments of the cheaper Imperial Guard are regularly flown around into war zones and trained on the way. Same with the Space Marines. Why exactly is warp travel suddenly considered so difficult that the decades-long process of neophyte to Brother (remember that time spent in 10th Scouting Company is a few decades) is considered cheaper in your mind? Where's the proof?

And as far as I'm aware, I don't believe there are any serious manpower restrictions on the Deathwatch right now. So I'm not sure why you believe it's more reliable.

The Imperium is NOT modern day earth, SW or etc. Its a feudal insitution with long and unreliable communications, both in terms of warp travel and astropathic communications.
THAT"S the unreliabilty factor introduced.

So where's the evidence for manpower restrictions? Where is your evidence that because ships were too busy collecting Marines from other chapters, that the Deathwatch was undermanned and unable to perform its duties?

Because honestly, unreliable communications and travel is so common place in the Imperium that their entire warmaking model has taken all that into account.

The Crimson Fists can't steal Marines from other chapters to quickly maintain codex strength. The Deathwatch can.

Right. And other chapters are all so overstrenght in the quality of recruits involved that they can easily offer such recruits to the Deathwatch? Not to mention the restrictions on manpower based on both honour as well as mutation. The major sources for the Deathwatch are derived from Storm Wardens, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolfs, Dark Angels as well as a multitude of other chapters.(Novamarines and Sons of Gulliman has been noted). Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, Ultramarines are understrength. Blood Angels and Space Wolves recruitment are restricted due to their geneseed instability. Dark Angels have their own agenda and honour code that prevents the Deathwatch from heavily recruiting from them. Other Marine chapters such as the Sons of Gulliman, Novamarines are now heavily engaged in various sectors against the Tau, Orks or Tyrannids.

Listing difficulties in recruiting from other chapters doesn't actually address my point, that it is easier to draw from the 1000 chapters for ready combat Marines than it is to create them. Let me restate: a chapter can't steal marines from other chapters to regain strength. The Deathwatch can.

That is clearly a benefit to the Deathwatch model that the Chapter model does not have, and is a benefit that the Ordos enjoys.

Brothers found suitable for volunteering to the Deathwatch may well have died in combat before the Watch actually comes to pick them up. Not to mention the travel issue involved. One can easily imagine a Sorry mario, the Princess is in another castle situation when the Deathwatch recruitment ship arrives at the Chapter homeworld only to find that the marines involved has been deployed to another sector and astropathic communications did not arrive in time.

Again, this is not Deathwatch-specific. A battle barge can also arrive and find a stationed company wiped out (Deus Encarmine and Storm of Iron). So there is no benefit here with the Chapter model over the Deathwatch model.

This is a fair point, but it doesn't seem to be a major factor. In most situations involving the Deathwatch, they are regarded even by fellow marines (I'm thinking of Uriel Ventris in Warriors of Ultramar) as an incredibly efficient and tight-knit squad.

Yes. By actually insituting ADDITIONAL training hours to intergrate them together. That's a source of inefficiency right there.

The definition and length of a single mission seems to fluctuate as well. Certainly Bannon's squad in Warriors of Ultramar had served together for quite sometime under Kryptmann, and if I recall the team that showed up in the the first Eisenhorn novel had also served together for quite some time, with a Librarian too!

As already quoted, the definition of a single mission may mean a campaign of years of vigil. Of course, this just creates ANOTHER problem vis a vis Vietnam, when US soldiers of different tour lengths return back States side.

I just don't see the benefit of a dedicated chapter. At least, not enough of a benefit to require the huge cost of maintaining the gene-seed.

Quantify the huge cost of maintaining this geneseed. The ONLY cost involved is actually finding aspirants, intergrating and then training said initates and failing those whoose implants, attitude and etc fail before graduating them as battle brothers. EVERYTHING else is already borne by the Deathwatch, with additional astronomic costs of actually sending ships to go and pick up space marines and returning them.

Honestly, I love to see how you justify sending a Deatwatch commander, the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain or higher, around multiple chapters to ask them for recruits and say this cost is LESS expensive than training your own force. You're taking a highly elite commander, one whoose duties are supposedly so vital and myriad, from adminstration, diplomacy as well as monitoring/deciphering intelligence from aliens and sending him around to ask for recruits on a ship that may take weeks(presumably, the Deathwatch ship speeds are faster and more reliable than normal Imperium vessels.) This when the neccessity of having to ask for recruits suggest that something IS building up right now, and in a situation where astropathic communication is simply not as reliable or efficienct as modern day communications.

Firstly, the 'only cost' of creating a Space Marine is a decades-long process.

And even if the situation were as pathetic and plagued by inefficiencies as you stated, the fact is that at least with the Deathwatch, they can expand as necessary (due to losses or threats) by drawing on an existing resource, something that a standard chapter model could not do in the same timeframe. The Deathwatch model off-loads the creation of marines to the many chapters in the galaxy, as well as diversifying the gene-seed restriction that typically plagues a chapter's recovery. It boggles my mind that you don't see the benefit in that, and instead moan and groan about inefficiencies in additional training and travel.

[Simon_Jester]

1. again,my dispute is Not "deathwatch specialise in small units tactics." its with the assumption that because of this,they"re able to pull off missions other chapters can"t do. Again, i quote zinnegata statement that the marines specialise in conventional warfare, the equivalent of rangers vs the deathwatch green berets.

Yeah, because again if you'd look at the M41 timeline you see not a single mention of a single squad deployment by the Space Marines. What you do see are company level or even Chapter level deployments. You can cover your ears and go LALALALA, but that ironclad evidence hasn't been refuted at all.

You see squad level deployments all over the novels. The codex talks about the big, honking, impressive battles that are written into the legend of Marine chapters the galaxy over... which, as a rule, are big, honking, impressive battles that require one or more full companies to handle.

Other problems demand only a squad to handle, and the Marines aren't so numerous that they can afford to deploy a company every time a fire needs to be put out. However, the Marines generally won't do that unless it's a relatively small problem- say, destroying a specific installation which is guarded by a relatively modest force.

Again, in the entire M41 timeline, the word "squad" is not mentioned a single time. And this is a composite timeline that joins together the timeline from multiple codexes, as noted in the source. This isn't up for debate. Unless you can show evidence that squad-level deployments are the norm - refuting the ironclad evidence from the timeline that company-level deployments are the norm - insisting that Marines deployed at the squad level routinely is delusional.

The timeline is a cherry-picker; it references big battles but not small ones.

[Eviscerator]

[Yeah, because again if you'd look at the M41 timeline you see not a single mention of a single squad deployment by the Space Marines. What you do see are company level or even Chapter level deployments. You can cover your ears and go LALALALA, but that ironclad evidence hasn't been refuted at all.

.

Weighing in for a while... what about Iron Snakes???

Brothers of the Snake's 1st story has a clerk-type gal ask the Marine "why only one?"
The answer: we usually only send one and i will evaluate the need for more however usually only ONE is needed.

And... from their wiki article
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Snakes

"When a mission, referred to within the chapter as an 'undertaking', is decided upon the Chapter Master announces how many squads he believes are required to ensure its success."

"primacy of the combat squad"

"While the squad is the principal tactical unit of the Chapter, sometimes even less manpower is deployed. "

With respect: Deathwatch should be considered the "Special Ops" of the SM, after all, the last time off the top of my head large SF forces were deployed to secure an objective was the Song Tay raid , other than that SF usually are deployed in A-Teams (called ODA today).

I.E: DW could perform the jobs a SM could but a SM could not. One example: sending a single Sergeant to assist an Inquisition team to board a Space Hulk where normally they send more than one to do the same job

[Zinegata]

Novels by necessity have to focus on a small number of characters. Even if the author doesn't go insane trying to write about one hundred individual Marines, the audience certainly will :p.

And in most cases, there's a specific special reason why a small group of Marines are fighting on their own. For intance, in the Ultramarines saga the lead character is fighting mostly alone because he was exiled from the Chapter - not exactly "standard procedure"/

Moreover, the Iron Snakes are not a Codex chapter. Relevant quotation:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Snakes

While the nominal fighting strength of the chapter (or "fratery" as it is referred to by the Iron Snakes) is kept at the Codex-approved 1,000 marines, the Iron Snakes do not appear to use the codex Company structure, instead basing their organization around that of the simple 10-marine squad

So yeah, you're totally gonna hear about how much the Iron Snakes rely on their combat squads in the Iron Snakes novels. They don't even have Companies to begin with.

So again, while examples exist in the novels, by and large these are almost always exceptions to the rule.

---------

While it is true that the timeline may possibly be focused only on "big battles", it's contradicted by the fact that the timeline also mentions numerous individuals. Even lowly Sergeants may get an entry if they did something noteworthy. Again, if Space Marine Chapters (other than the Iron Snakes) deploy as a squad far more frequently than they do as a Company, why isn't there even a single mention of it in the entire timeline? Wouldn't there have been at least one notable squad-level deployment where one squad of Space Marines, operating alone, did something particularly awesome?

---------

Finally, I'd like to note that people are also forgetting the logistical aspect of all this. Space Marines do not have unlimited space transport assets; and Warhammer 40K warships are generally very big. Does it really make sense for a Space Marine Chapter to use one largely empty transport ship to transport one squad of Marines, or does it make more sense to simply fill that same Battle Barge to the brim with a whole company of Space Marines?

The Inquisition by contrast employs specialized stealth ships to carry around DW squads... but these ships also carry the munitions to carry out an Exterminatus. Much more efficient for a squad of specialist operators to hitch a ride on one of these ships, don't you think?

[Zinegata]

In fact....

A quick survey of all known Space Marine vessels reveal that none of them specialize in squad-level deployments:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_Barge -> Rare ship that carries a whole lot of stuff
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Strike_Cruiser -> "Common" capital ship. Carries exactly one Space Marine company.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gladius_Frigate -> Primarily an escort vessel with 1 squad of Marines - but the squad is apparently a command squad; not a landing force
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Frigate -> "It cannot land troops"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hunter_Destroyer -> Escort vessel used mainly by Dark Angels. No mention of Marine carrying capacity.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rapid_Strike_vessel -> Escort vessel. Carries only Techmarines.

So, again, if we are subscribe to the myth that Space Marine squad-level deployments are the norm... then why are none of their ships specialized for this role?

[PainRack]

Its there so Inquisitors can have "dream teams" of superhuman killing machines at their beck and call, without oversight from their arsehole prig commanders, and have them do dangerous and illegal shit under the radar, as well as having a bunch of them around to troubleshoot or assassinate guys "on tap".

A bunch of marines might be able to do just as well in some respects, particularly if they are given some cool stuff like the Deathwatch. Hell, they might even get called back time and time again, or seconded to the Inquisition if they do well, and they get more experienced so become more usefulohwaitthatsprobablyhowthedeathwatchstarted.

Oh geez. Maybe if you had read the "waffle", you MIGHT have considered that if the Inquisition had simply created their own chapter, they would had gotten these benefits just as easily, without the attendent costs of sending ships nilly willy to collect recruits.

You MIGHT also want to read about how the fucking Deathwatch rulebook states that Marines don't even expect to return to their chapter alive after a Deathwatch tour you dipshit.

[Zinegata]

Oh geez. Maybe if you had read the "waffle", you MIGHT have considered that if the Inquisition had simply created their own chapter, they would had gotten these benefits just as easily, without the attendent costs of sending ships nilly willy to collect recruits.

That was never proven, actually. And a fair amount of contradictory evidence has already been shown that demonstrates that the cost and trouble of creating their own chapter may be more trouble than it's worth. Is it really much more expensive to ship space marines from planet to planet, compared to the cost of raising an individual space marine from scouts all the way to full-fledged Marines?

[PainRack]

Guess what? I don't disagree that the Inquisition isn't a monolithic bloc of heresy,burn them.

Then your post was a complete waste of time. Because the only point of the post was to say it's not a monolithic bloc

Right. So, if I used Mara Jade VSD hyperdrive example to say SW starships travel faster than WH40k, is that an acceptable example?
Your post content DOESN"T support your point.

Are you on fucking crack? I have already shown several examples that Marines do in fact generally deploy at company strength or Chapter strength, as opposed to squad level. Including:

* The first Taros battle (an "assassination mission")
* The Red Scorpion deployment at Vraks.

Not to mention that it's the case in the vast majority of the fluff. Seriously:

How on earth are THESE counter-examples?
WTF?Are you seriously delusional? Counter-examples would be showing that Space Marines "can't" fight squad level actions and achieve the same missions the Deathwatch does.

The word "squad" does not appear even once in the whole fucking timeline for M41. By contrast, there are numerous instances of "Chapters" and "Companies" being deployed.

And I already SHOWN you how misleading your line of reasoning is. Even when the Blood Angels deployed companies to Armaggadeon, they were ABLE to fight at squad level to fend off Ork Hordes. AGAIN, two-4 squads of Blood Angels held off an entire Ork Tribe assault on the bridges. This was one of the pivotal moments of Armaggadeon.

This is even if we IGNORED the Salamanders at 3rd War of Armaggadeon. They also deployed multiple companies, but they fought at squad level to defend convoys and etc. Black Templars? AGAIN. Fought in squad level to engage enemy warships.

Again, people have been telling you this over and over: Deathwatch specialize in small units. Space Marine Chapters may be good at this too (and may sometimes be even better than the DW), but they don't necessarily specialize in it.

Except that Deathwatch being specialised in small units was NEVER the fucking contention you dipshit. AGAIN, I quote your statement, you argued that the Deathwatch is an entirely different war fighting machine, comparing them as Green Berets to Space Marines Rangers. Do you FUCKING acknowledge that?

Again, really, the fucking Gaunt's Ghosts - a bunch of regular humans - conducted at least three high-level assassination missions during the SWC. Should we therefore conclude that Marines should be abolished and Guardsmen are superior assassins? Because this is precisely the argument you're making when you're citing individual examples, but make no move to actually show a comprehensive body of evidence proving that squad-level deployments are the norm for Space Marines. As the timeline demonstrates, there isn't even one fucking squad-level SM deployment that was worth noting.

Admit you're fucking wrong and move on.

...... That WASN"T my argument. Seriously. Quote me where I claimed that the Deathwatch DOESN"T specialise at small unit tactics and they should be abolished.

The CLOSEST I came was when in my OP, I pointed out that the Deathwatch missions could be replicated by a normal chapter and I suggested that we look for answers why the Inquisition doesn't simply create their OWN chapter. Or draft one in as their Ordos militant.

Yeah, because again if you'd look at the M41 timeline you see not a single mention of a single squad deployment by the Space Marines. What you do see are company level or even Chapter level deployments. You can cover your ears and go LALALALA, but that ironclad evidence hasn't been refuted at all.

You mean, the MULTIPLE incidents of me posting examples where squads were deployed is now ignored, because Blood Ravens, Ultramarines and etc are now "special"?

And as Black Admiral already demonstrated in Taros, moving up to a company-level assault is an entirely different thing. A squad of marines might have assassinated the governor, but it wouldn't have been able to crush any rebel elements or intimidated the populace into surrender. A company-level deployment can, because it's not a mere SpecOp job. It's a full-scale assault.

You argue tactics, I argue roles.

In short, stop fucking mistaking "squad level actions" with "squad level deployments". The former happens all of the time as part of a larger deployment, but it's completely different from dropping just one squad all alone on a hostile planet. Pretending there's no difference is just rank dishonesty.

Sigh. I pointed this before. When you argued that the Deathwatch is a totally different warfighting machine, I pointed out that their MISSION roles were the same. You were the one who dragged this into a "Space Marines can't fight at small squad unit level" tactical discussion, which I then rebutted accordingly.

I'm not the one pretending there's no difference. I'm simply trying to post and rebut what your piss poor attempt at communication is.

Again, in the entire M41 timeline, the word "squad" is not mentioned a single time. And this is a composite timeline that joins together the timeline from multiple codexes, as noted in the source. This isn't up for debate. Unless you can show evidence that squad-level deployments are the norm - refuting the ironclad evidence from the timeline that company-level deployments are the norm - insisting that Marines deployed at the squad level routinely is delusional.

This is fucking absurd . Your argument is that lack of evidence= proof that no squads units were deployed. When I actually post FLUFF and proof that such units were deployed.... you ignored them by claiming novel bias. When I used a fucking CODEX FLUFF, you....... ignored it.

WTF?
By chance, are you a creationist? This is on the same fucking level of no genetic information has ever evolved bullshit.

That's an incredibly dumb argument. You're saying the Deathwatch isn't that good because they're actually "stealing" the skills off other Chapters? Do you realize that modern-day special forces often do recruit their manpower from other elite units? Or that they cross-train because they recognize some recruits may be better at somethings than others?

Fuck, that's half of the point of recruiting from existing Space Marine chapters - if you want a badass squad, you have to get Marines from badass units.

There's a fucking difference, which I already echoed with the Royal Tree Corp of climbers. The fucking Space Marine chapters are ALREADY supposed to fight and contain the xenos threat. Their mission scopes are actually similar. Note that Imperial Overlord contribution was that the Deathwatch formation is POLITICAL. In that the Inquisition wanted a marine chapter to call their own, and they built on such expertise.

Its not the equivalent of recruiting from the Paras to get a SAS trooper. Its the equivalent of recruiting from the SAS to get a SBS trooper.

Moreover, you again completely ignore that there are things Deathwatch operators can do that they cannot in their home chapters. Another example: Say you need a piece of Xenos flesh analyzed. The fastest way to do it is to have a Marine taste the flesh. Back in his home Chapter, an Ultramarine may get sanctioned for doing something that could be mistaken as the act of a cannibal or heretic. But in the Deathwatch, that's a completely valid tactical move that he won't suffer sanctions from.

You keep fucking posting shit that says that the Chapters won't do things such as capture xenos, yet you fucking IGNORE MY FUCKING CODEX FLUFF THAT STATES THAT THE FUCKING ULTRAMARINES CAPTURED HIVE CREATURES.

ARRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It gets even MORE fucking annoying because this piece? Actually FUCKING SHOW THAT THE CODEX FORBIDS IT.

[PainRack]

Oh geez. Maybe if you had read the "waffle", you MIGHT have considered that if the Inquisition had simply created their own chapter, they would had gotten these benefits just as easily, without the attendent costs of sending ships nilly willy to collect recruits.

That was never proven, actually. And a fair amount of contradictory evidence has already been shown that demonstrates that the cost and trouble of creating their own chapter may be more trouble than it's worth. Is it really much more expensive to ship space marines from planet to planet, compared to the cost of raising an individual space marine from scouts all the way to full-fledged Marines?

We are reading the same fluff that states that sending in IG reinforcements from the home planet,or returning discharged veterans back to their homeworlds is considered too expensive, right?
The same fluff that says the Black ships visit a world every one hundred years or so?
That some worlds only see an interstellar ship once a generation?
That charter ships can take a year to complete their route?
That it would require years to tranverse the Imperium?

It gets even more annoying because you attempted to argue that sending in single ships to transport a single squad of space marines is too costly to be effective....... but now, its apparently much cheaper than recruiting and training your own space marines.

[Zinegata]

Your post content DOESN"T support your point.

Uh-huh. So you agreed that Inquisitors are not a monolithic bloc, but your problem is that "The Ciaphas Cain novels do not prove that inquisitors are not a monolithic bloc!"

Are you that big of a fucking moron?

Amberley Vail - in the footnotes - makes numerous references to how stupidly her fellow Inquisitors acts sometimes. Do we see anyone burning her for heresy? How is it that she is able to publish, what, seven novels on our dear Cowardly Commissar without facing any sanctions?

Putting up the wall of ignorance is shitty debating.

How on earth are THESE counter-examples?
WTF?Are you seriously delusional? Counter-examples would be showing that Space Marines "can't" fight squad level actions and achieve the same missions the Deathwatch does.

You remain a fucking moron.

Again: Squad level "actions" are not the same as "squad level deployments"

Try again and grow a brain.

And I already SHOWN you how misleading your line of reasoning is. Even when the Blood Angels deployed companies to Armaggadeon, they were ABLE to fight at squad level to fend off Ork Hordes. AGAIN, two-4 squads of Blood Angels held off an entire Ork Tribe assault on the bridges. This was one of the pivotal moments of Armaggadeon.

You remain a fucking moron.

Again: Squad level "actions" are not the same as "squad level deployments"

Try again and grow a brain.

This is even if we IGNORED the Salamanders at 3rd War of Armaggadeon. They also deployed multiple companies, but they fought at squad level to defend convoys and etc. Black Templars? AGAIN. Fought in squad level to engage enemy warships.

You remain a fucking moron.

Again: Squad level "actions" are not the same as "squad level deployments"

Try again and grow a brain.

That's three times you have been a fucking moron. A fourth reminder isn't necessary because you really are a fucking moron.

Except that Deathwatch being specialised in small units was NEVER the fucking contention you dipshit. AGAIN, I quote your statement, you argued that the Deathwatch is an entirely different war fighting machine, comparing them as Green Berets to Space Marines Rangers. Do you FUCKING acknowledge that?

Yes. And I explained why they were Green Berets as opposed to Rangers. And you never once attempted to refute it. Instead, you are claiming that "Zine argued that DW is entirely different from Space Marines and he never explained! WAAAH:

I did explain, dipshit. "Squad level actions" vs "squad level deployments". You never addressed nor refuted this.

Reported.

In short, stop fucking mistaking "squad level actions" with "squad level deployments". The former happens all of the time as part of a larger deployment, but it's completely different from dropping just one squad all alone on a hostile planet. Pretending there's no difference is just rank dishonesty.

Sigh. I pointed this before. When you argued that the Deathwatch is a totally different warfighting machine, I pointed out that their MISSION roles were the same. You were the one who dragged this into a "Space Marines can't fight at small squad unit level" tactical discussion, which I then rebutted accordingly.

Yes, and I explained how they are different. A unit that fights primarily as a squad as opposed to being as part of a company is a different war fighting unit.

You are not refuting this at all. All you're saying is "But they both do the same kind of mission!" (which is still fucking wrong, because they sometimes do the same kinds of missions, which blows away your whole "The DW is unnecessary")

So why the fuck are you ragging on me for saying that they are a different kind of war fighting unit? I explained it. You failed to refute it; instead you're attempting to drag it to some semantic BS. A warfighting unit is more than just its mission orientation.

You are a lying shit who just doesn't want to admit he's wrong.

This is fucking absurd . Your argument is that lack of evidence= proof that no squads units were deployed. When I actually post FLUFF and proof that such units were deployed.... you ignored them by claiming novel bias. When I used a fucking CODEX FLUFF, you....... ignored it.

I never said no squads deployed. I said they aren't the norm.

Get your fucking facts straight before you start calling people "Creationist" because you can't fucking read.

You know, what, enough of this bullshit. Time to call in the mods. I will not suffer idiots any further, especially when you have already ignored evidence that Space Marines do not even have a spaceship that specializes in squad level deployments.

[PainRack]

Can you provide evidence that collecting Space Marines, giving them additional training on route, and then dropping them on planets is more expensive than creating them from scratch them?

Consider that this model (travel through the warp to deploy soldiers) is followed by the entire Imperial War Machine. Regiments of the cheaper Imperial Guard are regularly flown around into war zones and trained on the way. Same with the Space Marines. Why exactly is warp travel suddenly considered so difficult that the decades-long process of neophyte to Brother (remember that time spent in 10th Scouting Company is a few decades) is considered cheaper in your mind? Where's the proof?

I can't actually. I am however willing to bet that since the Imperium is entirely unwilling to consider the cost of resettling discharged IG veterans to their home planets, that their communications link is weak enough that they can't count on receiving reinforcements from homeworlds, the relatively scarcity of interstellar travel for the bulk of the Imperium citizens suggest that space travel is expensive.

THAT being said and done...

Meh. My OP should had been clearer. I went into this trying to find a silver lining, to see why the Deathwatch as it is now functions better than a normal Space Marine unit.

I should think that's easy. They are able to replace losses quickly. If the Deathwatch were wiped out to the same degree the Scythes of the Emperor were, for instance, they could be rebuilt in numbers within the year.

No fucking about with scouts. No worries about Gene Seed. Just the remaining Watch Captains having to write a lot of letters to other space marines requesting new candidates.

Hey.... That's something I didn't consider.

While the Deathwatch supply of manpower isn't as reliable as normal chapters, they are much better able to quickly replace mission specialists than normal chapters.

Yeah. I didn't consider this angle. Thank you .

So where's the evidence for manpower restrictions? Where is your evidence that because ships were too busy collecting Marines from other chapters, that the Deathwatch was undermanned and unable to perform its duties?

I didn't claim there was manpower restrictions. I said that the flow of manpower is unreliable.

Listing difficulties in recruiting from other chapters doesn't actually address my point, that it is easier to draw from the 1000 chapters for ready combat Marines than it is to create them. Let me restate: a chapter can't steal marines from other chapters to regain strength. The Deathwatch can.

Just a nitpick. The Blood Angels did obtain neophytes from their successor chapters.
Also, again, my contention was never the Deathwatch has a restriction on manpower or had difficulties with manpower. I said that the Deathwatch way of operating introduces unreliability and increased costs in manpower.

And even if the situation were as pathetic and plagued by inefficiencies as you stated, the fact is that at least with the Deathwatch, they can expand as necessary (due to losses or threats) by drawing on an existing resource, something that a standard chapter model could not do in the same timeframe. The Deathwatch model off-loads the creation of marines to the many chapters in the galaxy, as well as diversifying the gene-seed restriction that typically plagues a chapter's recovery. It boggles my mind that you don't see the benefit in that, and instead moan and groan about inefficiencies in additional training and travel.

You asked me my opinion on why creating an existing chapter would be superior to the Deathwatch model. I pointed it out. a more reliable flow in manpower along with the reduced costs related to interstellar travel. Again, speed of replacements is a "new" point introduced here and I appreciate it if you realise that I didn't consider that aspect. Thank you.

[Zinegata]

You know what? Since Painrack is a lying shit it's time to just lay down the facts and ignore the bullshit.

Again, I propose that the reason the Deathwatch was formed is because it is a fundamentally different warfighting unit than a Space Marine Chapter. Organizationally, a Space Marine Chapter typically deploys a large unit (company-sized) to perform assault operations. By contrast, the Deathwatch specializes in squad-level deployments, wherein one squad is deployed to a hostile world with no other support - to investigate, evaluate, and eradicate Xenos threats.

And if you think that fighting as part of a Company is just the same as fighting as an individual squad all alone in a hostile world just because you engage in some squad-level actions as part of the company, then you are a fucking moron; Especially when there has been no attempt to refute how the Taros deployment (which involved multiple squads fighting as part of a detailed battle plan) is different from the Oblivion's Edge deployment where one squad was dropped all alone in an enemy world with no other support.

Now that we've gotten that BS out of the way... The primary point of contention to the above statement is that "Space Marines also have squad-level deployments too!". Evidence has been shown, such as the Iron Snakes who do routiney send one individual squad to police an entire planet. However...

a) No mention of squad level deployments in the timeline, despite mention of individual officers, Companies, and Chapters - which are the fighting units above and below squad level.
b) Space Marines do not have warships that specialize in squad-level deployments. Their primary transport vessel carries a whole company.
c) The evidence shown (i.e. Iron Snakes) were shown to be mostly exceptions. Iron Snakes for instance did not even have Companies - explicitly in direct contradiction to the Codex.

I will not address the issue of "Mission Orientation", because it's a fucking stupid argument. Yes, a Space Marine squad may be able to do what a Deathwatch squad is also capable of. But so can regular Guardsmen in specific circumstances.

Warfighting units are not merely defined by their mission, but also by their organization. Space Marines generally fight as a part of a Company. Individual squads may fight on their own, but they are generally acting as part of a specific battle plan, and could potentially call for support if needed.

The DW generally fights on the basis of individual squads (similar to the Iron Snakes - but the IS are again a non-Codex Chapter and therefore an exception). They are dropped on the world and have no one else to rely on but themselves, often facing the unknown.

Pretending Mission = Type of Warfighting Unit is thus fucking stupid. Again, a warfighting unit is not defined by mission alone. One also has to consider its organization and doctrine. And the DW does differ greatly from the standard SM Chapter in these regards.

Exceptions do not standard procedure make.

[PainRack]

Uh-huh. So you agreed that Inquisitors are not a monolithic bloc, but your problem is that "The Ciaphas Cain novels do not prove that inquisitors are not a monolithic bloc!"

Are you that big of a fucking moron?

No you dipshit. You argued that the Inquisitors aren't shitting bricks over the image of Cain the coward.
I pointed out that this is misleading because Amberly stated that her colleagues couldn't accept that this is true. There's a huge fucking difference.

Getting the answer right doesn't mean you can get the workings wrong.

[

You remain a fucking moron.

Again: Squad level "actions" are not the same as "squad level deployments"

Try again and grow a brain.

Try again you dipshit. Said squads were deployed WITHOUT reinforcements or support because Dante couldn't give it to them. Arguing that this is the equivalent of a modern day company fighting a widespread action isn't true when said platoons aren't supporting each other.

Its gets even more annoying because they are facing the same kind of threats and problems the Deathwatch routinely face, cut off from support and facing an entire horde.

Yes. And I explained why they were Green Berets as opposed to Rangers. And you never once attempted to refute it. Instead, you are claiming that "Zine argued that DW is entirely different from Space Marines and he never explained! WAAAH:

I did explain, dipshit. "Squad level actions" vs "squad level deployments". You never addressed nor refuted this.

ARRGHHHH!!!!
You KEEP FUCKING SHIFTING THE FUCKING GOALPOSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!


AGAIN, THEY AREN"T DIFFERENT FROM GREEN BERETS AND RANGERS BECAUSE THEY DO THE SAME FUCKING MISSIONS AND EVEN FIGHT THE SAME WAY WHEN NEEDED TO YOU PIECE OF SHIT. ASSASINATION? MARINES DO IT. WATCH OVER SPACE? THE MARINES DO IT. KILL DISSIDENTS? THE MARINES DO IT. ELIMINATE COMMAND SO IMPERIAL FORCES CAN MOP UP. THE MARINES DO IT.


THE WHOLE FUCKING SMALL UNIT ACTION BIT IS BECAUSE YOU FUCKING SHIFTED THE GOALPOST FROM MISSION ROLES/TYPES TO DEATHWATCH FIGHT IN SMALL UNIT ACTION, SPACE MARINES DON'T.

I QUOTE.

However, when a Space Marine Chapter is fully stretched, its warriors scattered across many battlezones, it is impossible for the officers and Chaplains to monitor every battle-brother. Alone or as small groups, Space Marines on extended patrol can become from the Chapter's teachings.

Read that you MOTHER FUCKER. ALONE, or as SMALL GROUPS.
HENCE, FUCKING CODEX PROOF, ON TOP OF FUCKING NOVELS WHERE THE SPACE MARINES DO DEPLOY IN FUCKING SQUAD LEVLE YOU PIECE OF SHIT. OR EVEN FUCKING SMALLER!

This was the case with Sergeant Constantinus of the Sons of Guileman. Squad Constantinus was one of a handful of units left on Nova Terra to combat any resurgent Tyranid organisms that had survived the war, and to monitor the populace for sign of Genestealer or other Tyranid infiltration or infection.

What's that? Oh. Squad left behind on Nova Terra. SQUAD.

Hey, want me to twist the fucking dagger deeper you piece of shit?
Guess what Constantinus is doing? Oh yeah. A FUCKING DEATHWATCH MISSION.

Yes, and I explained how they are different. A unit that fights primarily as a squad as opposed to being as part of a company is a different war fighting unit.

You are not refuting this at all. All you're saying is "But they both do the same kind of mission!" (which is still fucking wrong, because they sometimes do the same kinds of missions, which blows away your whole "The DW is unnecessary")

So why the fuck are you ragging on me for saying that they are a different kind of war fighting unit? I explained it. You failed to refute it; instead you're attempting to drag it to some semantic BS. A warfighting unit is more than just its mission orientation.

You are a lying shit who just doesn't want to admit he's wrong.

You a piece of fucking assturd who damn quick to condemn, aren't you?
Let's DO say that I'm wrong, the Deathwatch are green berets, the Space Marines are rangers. Even though they do the same fucking missionos and fight the same fucking way, except that Marine chapters have more resources to call on and etc but Deathwatch has more tech and insitutional knowledge/experience.

How the FUCK DO YOU GET "Space Marines deploying in squads level aren't the norm?" The multiple examples of incidents and units where Space Marines DO deploy at squad level that has been quoted to you, from novel, short stories to fucking codex fluff....... and you fucking argue that Space Marines deploy at squad level is abnormal.

You know, what, enough of this bullshit. Time to call in the mods. I will not suffer idiots any further, especially when you have already ignored evidence that Space Marines do not even have a spaceship that specializes in squad level deployments.

Go ahead you dipshit.

Meanwhile, I just parade the fucking actual LITANY of evidence I shown you, from Blood Ravens recovering sacred relics in SQUAD level deployment to Codex fluff, whereas your ONLY fucking evidence is that "Hey, we fail to see squads deployment mentioned, so, it isn't the norm."

[Zinegata]

Yep. Pain Rack is still a dimwit who still thinks that a unit is defined only by its mission and the organization is irrelevant. I get why the better posters don't bother quoting. Much easier to get your point across without dealing with bullshit.

Still...

However, when a Space Marine Chapter is fully stretched, its warriors scattered across many battlezones, it is impossible for the officers and Chaplains to monitor every battle-brother. Alone or as small groups, Space Marines on extended patrol can become from the Chapter's teachings.

Notice how Pain Rack quotes an example that starts with the word "However"? And how he completely fails to realize that this indicates that a scattered deployment is not the norm?

Moreover...

This was the case with Sergeant Constantinus of the Sons of Guileman. Squad Constantinus was one of a handful of units left on Nova Terra to combat any resurgent Tyranid organisms that had survived the war, and to monitor the populace for sign of Genestealer or other Tyranid infiltration or infection.

Yes, he shows one squad... to claim that Space Marines do this on a regular basis? Despite the fact their ships aren't even designed to do squad level deployments?

Again, exceptions do not standard procedure make.

Finally as a coup d'grace..

If Space Marines deploying as individual squads is "standard procedure" and normal, why is it even noteworthy for the Iron Snakes to not have Companies? Why were they even considered a non-Codex Chapter for relying purely on squads instead of companies?

The answer, again, is simple: The overwhelming weight of evidence shows that company-level deployments are much more common than squad-level ones for Space Marines.

And again, people have failed to refute how a company assault like Taros is different from a squad deployment like Oblivion's Edge - because it's a fact that fighting as a company is different from fighting as an isolated squad.

It doesn't matter if a Space Marine and Deathwatch trooper knows to aim a boltgun and shoot. A fucking Imperial Guard trooper can too. But if you go beyond this simplistic and childish focus on mission-orientation, you can easily see that a warfighting unit based on fighting as part of a company is totally different from a SpecOp squad operating alone behind enemy lines.

Pain Rack is full of debate fail who can't even give proper examples to prove his point. It's just boiling down to him screaming at the world because he doesn't want to admit he's wrong.

[PainRack]

Once again, without the anger inspired by Zinnegata......

Zinnegata argues that the Deathwatch is a totally different warfighting machine than the Space Marines.

While I did expand this to discuss on why the Deathwatch isn't neccessarily better than normal space marines, that axis was to discuss the cost and benefit of running the Deathwatch as it is and has little bearing.

So......... what are the two axises here?

Normal Space Marines do the same mission roles the Death Watch do.
Normal Space Marines can fight the same way the Death Watch do.

Hell, on occassion, they even fight the same way and on the SAME type of missions the Death Watch do.

Proof?
Blood Ravens, DOW 2 novelisation. Aramus is deployed to secure a sacred relic. One lone squad, against an incoming Tyrannid horde. Sounds familar?
Sargaent Constanitus, Chaos Space Marine Codex. By the event of his rebellion, only his squad was mentioned...One squad or a few more were left behind on Nova Terra, fight Tyrannids. He killed the Genestealer cult, started smashing the rebellion that popped up before he popped over to the Dark lure of Chaos.
Ultramarine squad in let the galaxy burn antrhopology. Kill a Tyrannid monster.

Similar missions and threats, but different tactical goals?
Black Templar in Let the galaxy burn antrholgy. A few squads, against an incoming Chaos horde.
Blood Angels, two squads against an Ork Tribe on the vital bridgeheads. Additional troops did join in the fight later, inflating this to 4 squads or so, but the mission doctrine and threat were the same.

We can expand on this further, up to the use of scout squads to assasinate enemy leaders, typically depicted as deploying a single squad or so behind enemy lines to eliminate enemy commanders. Or the use of a squad or more to entirely destroy the enemy command structure. Zinnegata attempts to shrug this off by saying its part of a larger unit action, but the missions ARE the same. Deathwatch goes in to eliminate the Alien Ethereal, they go out, IG or other Marine forces complete the job. The sole difference here is that the other marine forces are part of the same unit.

ALL of this however, is apparently exceptional, including codex fluff that says that Marine forces are deployed in squad units actions because Zinnegata says it is. Again, just WHAT will be the accepted standards of "normal" then? Same mission, Same tactics, same threat level... but abnormal..


Hey, he posted something new. What's the "however" about?
Geez. Full extract.

Desertion amongst the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes is extremely uncommon. HOWEVER,

In other words, the "uncommonality" is the desertion rate, not the fact that Marines do deploy in squad or smaller. Also, again, fluff, novel, short stories. All of this don't exist or are abnormal because the timeline says Marines deploy "companies".

[Zinegata]

Normal Space Marines do the same mission roles the Death Watch do.
Normal Space Marines can fight the same way the Death Watch do.

*sigh* For the last fucking time:

Completely totally irrelevant.

Imperial Guard also do the same kinds of missions Space Marines do.

Mission-orientation is not the sole determinant of a warfighting unit.

Pain Rack remains a moron.

[Keevan_Colton]

Of course space marines are capable of the same mission roles as the Deathwatch. The Deathwatch is composed of space marines. If they weren't capable of it the Deathwatch wouldn't be capable either.

The Deathwatch however does mean that the inquisition does not have to spend its time on essentially training deployments for scouts. They get the top end of the bell curve of space marines and only the top end. There is no weeding out recruits, no sending into battle untried troops for their first fight, no gene-seed banks and recruitment selection from general population.

Essentially the true value of the Deathwatch isn't that they can do things marines cant. It's just that they can consistently do the best that marines can.

It's actually the similar to the reasoning given for Stormtrooper training by an inquisitor in one of the guard novels. Stormtroopers exist in the guard to provide a recruitment pool for inquisitorial special forces. They are able to get a crop of combat veteran troops for specialist missions without having to spend their own time and resources sending them into warzones to practice.

If you think sending a ship to pick up a single marine is a massive cost, consider how many times you'd be ferrying them around minor warzones until they were an experienced combat veteran if you were training them from scratch...

Another thing to consider is that the inquisition is generally amongst the best placed of all imperial institutions to have rapid small scale transit available. The only ones that could really beat them are some of the larger navigator houses themselves.

[Eviscerator]

While I did expand this to discuss on why the Deathwatch isn't neccessarily better than normal space marines, that axis was to discuss the cost and benefit of running the Deathwatch as it is and has little bearing.

Normal Space Marines do the same mission roles the Death Watch do.
Normal Space Marines can fight the same way the Death Watch do.

Hell, on occassion, they even fight the same way and on the SAME type of missions the Death Watch do.

".

Cost??? This is WH40K, where rogue traders who are deep in debt have fucktons of archeotech and treasures but wont sell them and "enough adamtium and plasteel to construct a warfleet" tied up in Ultramar

Many people have already put forward the reason for "uber-elite" subgroups like SF , DW or what have you exist precisely to enable you to
- *insert flogged horse here*

Let's look at what P-Rack claims:
Ergo: since both DW and SM do the same stuff we shouldnt keep the DW around

Let's Recap: both SM and DW are fundamentally Spessh Muhreens so yes: they better fight the same way or its heretical and shit.... BUT the targets , Rules of Engagements, assets available to support, equipment etc etc etc are much better than what the usual Chapter has available, and that there is the factor.

Even though they CAN do the same type of mission, the target varies widely to say the least

I submit that assassinating Farseer XYZ in Craftworld ABC is far more difficult than assasinate Governor Dickwad on Hive Planet 101 due to "insert too many factors" here.

Put it in a context any one could understand: the takedown of Osama bin laden MIGHT have been accomplishable by fellows right out of Ft Bragg but do you want to take the risk? No....

[PainRack]

Normal Space Marines do the same mission roles the Death Watch do.
Normal Space Marines can fight the same way the Death Watch do.

*sigh* For the last fucking time:

Completely totally irrelevant.

Imperial Guard also do the same kinds of missions Space Marines do.

Mission-orientation is not the sole determinant of a warfighting unit.

Pain Rack remains a moron.

Frankly, I don't give a shit right now about the Deathwatch, because that query has been satisfactory answered.

Its you right now for being a dipshit. Do Imperial Guard have the same capabilities that Space Marines do? They don't.
Do Space Marines have the same capabilities that Deathwatch do? Barring minor improvements in technology and insitutional knowledge,yes, they do.
Do they run the same missions the Deathwatch do? Yes they do.
Do you see why your analogy doesn't work? No, you don't.

Do you FUCKING acknowledge that Space Marines can operate the same way the Deathwatch does or that they DO deploy and fight in squad levels? Or are you going to keep waffling about how Space Marines don't deploy in squads, despite the numerous novel, codex fluff that I posted here?
Or that Deathwatch are special ops and Space Marines aren't, even though Space Marines run the EXACT same kind of missions in the same style, and operate as special ops forces when they're not working up as commandoes or stormtroopers?