Stas Bush wrote:America learns from the masters. After all, Anglo-Saxon culture and the so-called Anglosphere was one of the most successful imperialistic and colonialist projects in the entire world.
When America behaves like this, the true face of New Age imperialism is bare to see.
And people rail on me when I get suspicious about America's motives when it gets into some war in another Whereverstan. Considering Iraq, Guatemala, Indonesia/Timor, Philippines and much, much more America's behaviour as the new colonizer of the XX and early XXI century has been rather atrocious and far from benigh.
There is a grim sense of irony in making one of the poorest wartorn nations to pay "reparations" to the wealthiest nation in the world which invaded them on false pretenses and wrought destruction on an enormous scale. It is a perfect vision of the rich globocrat taking the last dime from a poor hobo whom he just beat consciousless on the street.
Wat
The fact that Iraqis have been paying reparations to their occupiers is all the more shocking in the context of how little these countries have actually spent on aid in Iraq. Despite the $18.4bn of US tax dollars allocated for Iraq's reconstruction, the Washington Post estimates that only $29m has been spent on water, sanitation, health, roads, bridges, and public safety combined.
This would be news to my Uncle, who works for a company in Texas that built a natural gas power plant for Iraq for a quarter of a billion dollars** I suppose the weasel response to that would be "well, power plants aren't the public works mentioned".
**Which is currently sitting unmanned and unused because the Iraqis wouldn't show up to work due to security concerns, and so didn't get trained very well.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
"water, sanitation, health, roads, bridges and public safety.'
so yeah, a power plant isn't part of the public works mentioned. pretty simple really.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
Chimaera wrote:After invading a relatively innocent country under the guise of protecting the interests of people of both countries, the US forces commence the slaughter of Iraqi civilians by the million
Do you have any actual evidence that supports the claim that 1 million+ Iraqi civilians were killed by US forces?
That is merely semantics. A hell of a lot of people, you know, people, were murdered by American bombs, American bullets and American shells so that the richest country on Earth and their corporate masters could plunder it's oil and the religious elements could continue to prattle on about their glorious crusade against the heathen Mohammedans under the pretense of fighting an abstract concept personified by racist caricature. Forcing the demoralized and brutalized survivors to foot the bill is just par for the course.
1980s Rock is to music what Giant Robot shows are to anime
Think about it.
Cruising low in my N-1 blasting phat beats,
showin' off my chrome on them Coruscant streets
Got my 'saber on my belt and my gat by side,
this here yellow plane makes for a sick ride
I'm not going to argue that people needlessly died and the war was not prosecuted well, but it's a lot more than semantics when somebody claims that a country with as estimated population of 30 million+ was having said population murdered "by the millions". Anyone who wants to rail against how the Bush Administration handled this war (and they would be justified in my opinion to do so) should do the side they are arguing for a favor and get the facts straight.
What if someone had made the following statement "Terrorists killed fifty thousand people in the World Trade Center" when we know the number was well below that. Would you allow someone to respond to your correcting him by saying "Semantics!" knowing full well that it isn't just that?
A hell of a lot of people, you know, people, were murdered by American bombs, American bullets and American shells so that the richest country on Earth and their corporate masters could plunder it's oil and the religious elements could continue to prattle on about their glorious crusade against the heathen Mohammedans under the pretense of fighting an abstract concept personified by racist caricature. Forcing the demoralized and brutalized survivors to foot the bill is just par for the course.
How much oil plundering actually ever occurred if you don't mind my asking? While it sounds all right and sinister, I have always been under the impression that the idea was that a "liberated" Iraq would be able to recoup all of their losses by selling their own oil and thus paying for their own new infratructure wich would limit the burden on American taxpayers. (A horrible miscalculation made by an administration that was horrible at calculating we can both agree).
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
The arrangements actually set up, as I recall, gave very sweet deals to the international oil companies. There's a dramatic difference between the kind of prices a Middle Eastern nation charges for its oil when the country is in full command of its own position, and when it's subservient to foreigners. We don't need to look any farther than Iran to see examples of this.
madd0ct0r wrote:"water, sanitation, health, roads, bridges and public safety.'
so yeah, a power plant isn't part of the public works mentioned. pretty simple really.
How do you suppose water gets pumped or sanitized, or how much public safety work gets done, or how much health care is provided without electrical power?
If they left out electrricity from that list, it's a major oversight on their part. If they left it out intentionally, it calls their motivs into serious question. Electrical power is key to making any remotely modern society function.
Shit like this is why I'm kind of glad it isn't legal to go around punching people in the crotch. You'd be able to track my movement from orbit from the sheer mass of idiots I'd leave lying on the ground clutching their privates in my wake. -- Mr. Coffee
SVPD wrote:How do you suppose water gets pumped or sanitized, or how much public safety work gets done, or how much health care is provided without electrical power?
If they left out electrricity from that list, it's a major oversight on their part. If they left it out intentionally, it calls their motivs into serious question. Electrical power is key to making any remotely modern society function.
Very well then - how much was invested in it and does it in any way impact the OP, which is about Iraq essentially being forced to pay for its own invasion?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
I also know for a fact that a new desalinization plant was built around 2008 that cost somewhere around $250m dollars. I can't remember the province though.
So what's the point of making Iraq pay war reparations to American companies then?
Oh wait, I see. In the case of war reparations and taxpayer-funded reconstruction of the infrastructure destroyed by US warplanes, we see one commonality: US corporations are getting paid either way. The only difference is the question of precisely who is made to pay for US corporations' profits. In one case, it's Iraqis. In the other case, it's US taxpayers. Either way, the winner turns out to be the "contractors" who walk away with boatloads of money.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Simon_Jester wrote:The arrangements actually set up, as I recall, gave very sweet deals to the international oil companies. There's a dramatic difference between the kind of prices a Middle Eastern nation charges for its oil when the country is in full command of its own position, and when it's subservient to foreigners. We don't need to look any farther than Iran to see examples of this.
That's interesting, care to elaborate? It is also my understanding that any development of Iraqi oilfields is going to cost a lot just to get a decent (by current standards) infrastructure rebuilt. I readily admit that I'd love to some see some hard numbers on how bad international companies would potentially/are currently hosing over the Iraqi people. It will be interesting to see if the withdrawal of American forces allows any of those deals to stay intact.
As far as the country of Iraq paying reparations? Absolutely bizarre and I am surprised that this isn't a bigger news story with more outrage attached. Punching someone in the jaw and then sending them the bill for your bruised hand is arrogance in the extreme.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Simon_Jester wrote:The arrangements actually set up, as I recall, gave very sweet deals to the international oil companies. There's a dramatic difference between the kind of prices a Middle Eastern nation charges for its oil when the country is in full command of its own position, and when it's subservient to foreigners. We don't need to look any farther than Iran to see examples of this.
That's interesting, care to elaborate? It is also my understanding that any development of Iraqi oilfields is going to cost a lot just to get a decent (by current standards) infrastructure rebuilt. I readily admit that I'd love to some see some hard numbers on how bad international companies would potentially/are currently hosing over the Iraqi people. It will be interesting to see if the withdrawal of American forces allows any of those deals to stay intact.
As far as the country of Iraq paying reparations? Absolutely bizarre and I am surprised that this isn't a bigger news story with more outrage attached. Punching someone in the jaw and then sending them the bill for your bruised hand is arrogance in the extreme.
The really bizzare part is the fact that the UN is holding Iraq responsible for the previous regieme's debts, after its assurances that it wouldn't.
Darth Fanboy wrote:As far as the country of Iraq paying reparations? Absolutely bizarre and I am surprised that this isn't a bigger news story with more outrage attached. Punching someone in the jaw and then sending them the bill for your bruised hand is arrogance in the extreme.
I'm not totally clear on this, are the reperations in question for GWII or only for GWI?
Going by the article in the OP I'd assume that both are included, this is the first I have heard about it though.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Darth Fanboy wrote:As far as the country of Iraq paying reparations? Absolutely bizarre and I am surprised that this isn't a bigger news story with more outrage attached. Punching someone in the jaw and then sending them the bill for your bruised hand is arrogance in the extreme.
I'm not totally clear on this, are the reperations in question for GWII or only for GWI?
Both.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
All the reparations are for stuff involving Kuwait in 1990/91 and foreign companies operating in Kuwait at that time. I've never heard of anything coming from 2003, the 1991 reparations came directly out of the ceasefire terms.
Short story shorter, some western governments including the US did cancel 80% of Saddams debt owned directly to said governments. The US may have actually killed 100% of its share, the report is confusing on that matter. Most of Iraqs debt however is owed to wonderful places like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, which explicitly funded Saddam's war against Iran or else commercial enterprises and that’s all still outstanding.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
They're also building a port in the same waters as a planned Iraqi megaport, which will potentially divert a ton of traffic from the planned port (in Fao) and the existing one in Um Qasr to the Kuwaiti port. Kuwait already has 3 major ports and has plenty of space to build the new port anywhere but directly facing the Iraqi one. Iraq, on the other hand, only has 58 km of coastline, and much of it too shallow to use. You can see the Kuwaiti justification here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nT0t3pSACg
All I'll say on the matter is that Iraq won't be this weak forever.
Umm, watching that video and checking up on the locations, I cannot see how the Kuwaiti port could interfere with the Iraqi megaport plan. It could interfere with access to Umm Qasr but if anything the Iraqi port project should block access to the new Kuwati port. The Iraqi port is further out in the Gulf and the better part of ten kilometers away. It might be an issue with the overall stability of the estuary if both sides are bulkaheaded, but I hardly have an overwhelming compulsion to believe every complaint Iraq or anyone else makes over topics like this. Iraq is still pissed that when the UN finally surveyed the Kuwait-Iraqi border it put a modest piece of Umm Qasr, inculding half the airport, inside Kuwait.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Sea Skimmer wrote:Umm, watching that video and checking up on the locations, I cannot see how the Kuwaiti port could interfere with the Iraqi megaport plan. It could interfere with access to Umm Qasr but if anything the Iraqi port project should block access to the new Kuwati port. The Iraqi port is further out in the Gulf and the better part of ten kilometers away. It might be an issue with the overall stability of the estuary if both sides are bulkaheaded, but I hardly have an overwhelming compulsion to believe every complaint Iraq or anyone else makes over topics like this. Iraq is still pissed that when the UN finally surveyed the Kuwait-Iraqi border it put a modest piece of Umm Qasr, inculding half the airport, inside Kuwait.
I'm no expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't large ships need a huge amount of space around them to operate safely, or even to turn? Wouldn't the extra traffic coming to the Kuwaiti port still put a limit/delay/whatever on how many ships can be in front of the Iraqi port at any one time?
