Deathwatch vs Space marines

[Black Admiral]

The "Deathwatch secondment as punishment" has happened before; Shadow-Captain Moron - sorry, Korvydae - from IA8 gets sent (or, more accurately, sends himself) on a two-year penitent secondment to the Deathwatch after fucking up (major understatement) the Kastorel-Novem raid.

Personally I think that's just a cover for Captain Shrike having him shot and dumped in an unmarked grave for being either the dumbest fucker ever to wear the Raven Guard 10th Captain's heraldry or actively a traitor, but that's just me.

[Ahriman238]

Dayum, hoss, creating a chapter is simple!!!! All you have to do is get this thing called Geneseed, find some young tykes , inject them and there you have it then! A Chapter of Spessh Muhreens!!!!

Correct me if im wrong but there's nothing "simple" about creating even your Standard SM, it takes years to create even a Scout not to mention a Captain.... long story short: SM already need to send ships willy nilly around the galaxy to find even one or two candidates and it then takes several additional years to train said candidate and if anything goes wrong you... dont get even a Scout for all your trouble

Multiply it by several thousand ....

But anyway its not gonna matter because we're shifting the goalposts and we're all dipshits according to TS's opinion

Oh, it's worse than that. When the time comes and the High Lords order a Founding, a suitable gene-seed is found from one of the existing chapters' tithes. This gene-seed is injected into a vat-grown slave who spends his entire life inside a giant test-tube. His entire life meaning exactly long enough for him to grow mature progenoids, then he will be executed, the two gene-seed extracted from him and implanted into two more slaves, and so on until they have a thousand. WIth multiple tests for purity, if there are any strange mutations the whole batch gets thrown out and they start from scratch. This whole process IIRC takes between fifty and sixty years, provided everything runs smoothly.

So that's a fair bit of time and effort invested in a new chapter, even before you provide them with bolters, power armor, termie armor, armored vehicles, spacecraft and a fortress-monastery with impressive surface-to-orbital firepower, void shields, automated weapon turrets etc.

[Simon_Jester]

That said, biocompatible candidates aren't the limiting factor- many chapters recruit entirely from their own homeworld, and there are a lot more worlds in the Imperium than there are chapters.

[Zinegata]

Pain Rack, since you are an idiot, this is the last time I will address this issue of "standards of evidence".

You have, at best, given around, what, four examples of individual squad deployments by Marines.

The single source I cited alone had eight mentions of Company deployments, in addition to numerous mentions of Chapter deployments.

So again, are you that fucking dense when I say that Company deployments are the norm while squad-level deployments are not? Again, I don't know what the fuck you're railing about other than "I am a crybaby!" but I am talking about the frequency of squad-level deployments as opposed to Company-level deployments. This is the fifth fucking time you've attempted to misrepresent my argument.

Fuck, and again: The Iron Snakes - which rely entirely on squads - have been classified as a Non-Codex Chapter because of this. So again, does this not show that squad-level deployments are in fact less common than Company level ones? That they are the exceptions to the rule rather than standard procedure?

Just because you cited more sources doesn't mean you win. Your sources actually have to address the fucking issue. Which you haven't. At all. Now stop being a fucking baby.

Secondly:

Again: read the fucking description of the Gladius frigate. It again mentions the Space Marines as a command squad, not an assault party.

Just because one frigate was known to have carried a Death Watch team (and it's also been noted that SM vessels are different from Imperial ones), doesn't mean all Gladius frigates perform a similar role.

Moreover, it puts to shame your own argument about the DW's inefficiency. You claim that the DW is inefficient. You claim they use Gladius frigates to carry DW teams around regularly (even if it might not necessarily be commonplace). But hey, the Space Marines are just as inefficient too - because they seriously don't have any other fucking ship to truck around invidual squads bu the Gladius either.

Do yourself a favor and shut up.

[PainRack]

4 missions?
Dark angels. That's one.
Blood Ravens. That's 3
Shrike. That's 4.
Space Hulk. That's 5.
Constantinus. That's 6.
Black Templar. That's 7.
Ultramarines. That's 8.
Unnamed chapter that rescue medieval hicks. That's 9.


So.... what's next? Oh yes.
Company deployment= battlefield company deployment? Blood Angels disprove that.

Deathwatch is special ops? The missions profiles are the same. Even the way they execute the mission can be the same.
Is it apparently unique or exceptions? Nope. Codex Chaos state that this does happens and the Chapter deploys squads or single marines. It happens frequently enough that they understand that this pose a threat to marines going rogue.

So...... your level of counter-rebuttal is...
Oh, we see them deploy in comany level most of the time. This is the EXACT same standard of debating we see when cretinists argue that mutations involve information deleting mutations.

I already shown why company level deployment also involves squad level combat deployment etc, I shown multiple examples...... and your insistence is that "its abnormal" because of the sin of omission?


I love your space warship rebuttal though. I shown that your objection can't possibly be that fatal because it applies equally to the Deathwatch. The Deathwatch has no known dedicated squad transport.

I shown how this can't be true though, because we know the Deathwatch uses the Gladius for such missions.


Your counter-rebuttal is to focus narrowly on the Space Marines don't use Gladius that way??!?!?!?! EXCUSE me. There IS a FUCKING reason why the FUCKING BULK OF MY SPACE WARSHIP POST TALKS ABOUT THE DEATHWATCH.

It WASN"T to argue that the Space Marines have a dedicated squad transport. Its to show that your argument DOESN"T hold water because the Deathwatch would hda been JUST as crippled if we use your logic, which is nonsensical.

Now you're whining about Iron snakes and non codex compliance.

WTF?! The Iron Snakes is non compliance because they DON"T retain the capabilities for large unit actions. I EXPLICTLY stated before that the Codex Astartes is EXPLICTLY stated to be flexible, enough for the Marines to wage guerilla warfare, hit and run up to large unit actions. THAT"S was the KEY CRUX of my "Space Marines can run the same missions the Deathwatch do." Because its in the CODEX ASTARTES.

Lastly, I "love" how you magically come up with the fact that this is the last time, ahem, make that, the ONLY time you discuss the standards of evidence..... Then it turns out you didn't. Again, like any creationist, I'm going to ask you, what will it take to convince you that this isn't the norm? On MY part, it truly WILL be the last time.

[PainRack]

The "Deathwatch secondment as punishment" has happened before; Shadow-Captain Moron - sorry, Korvydae - from IA8 gets sent (or, more accurately, sends himself) on a two-year penitent secondment to the Deathwatch after fucking up (major understatement) the Kastorel-Novem raid.

Personally I think that's just a cover for Captain Shrike having him shot and dumped in an unmarked grave for being either the dumbest fucker ever to wear the Raven Guard 10th Captain's heraldry or actively a traitor, but that's just me.

The RPG states that the Chapter don't send inferior warriors to the Deathwatch. However, it clearly isn't above sending warriors on a penitant crusade into the Deathwatch.

Its would be interesting if we get more novel material about the Deathwatch though, especially about the creation of a Deathwatch kill team.

[Eviscerator]

.

Deathwatch is special ops? The missions profiles are the same. Even the way they execute the mission can be the same.
.

Here we go again.... one more time from the top:
Missions profiles and ways of execution can be the same but the objectives, location and everything else is not the same. Within the SM themselves there are several levels of specialists running the gamut from biker to close combat specialist to WHATEVER.

If standard SM could do the jobs the DW and Grey Knights do, there wouldnt be a need for them in the first place, innit?

We've already flogged the horse several times over on this: why not show us at least one instance where a non-DW squad accomplish a mission against a similar objective in similar circumstances???

Sidenote:
Mantis warriors P43: ...Deathwatch are a particularly rare and unusual honor
(the same novel also says that in a hundred years no Mantis Warriors Marine has been enlisted into DW)

Index Astartes III DW Section: Once in the employ of the DW, there is no set length of service and it's members will remain together as long s its commander deems neccessary

Hot diggity damn, seems that Pain rack's concerns over "ANOTHER problem vis a vis Vietnam" doesnt exist and he didn't read that source material

[PainRack]

Here we go again.... one more time from the top:
Missions profiles and ways of execution can be the same but the objectives, location and everything else is not the same. Within the SM themselves there are several levels of specialists running the gamut from biker to close combat specialist to WHATEVER.

If standard SM could do the jobs the DW and Grey Knights do, there wouldnt be a need for them in the first place, innit?

We've already flogged the horse several times over on this: why not show us at least one instance where a non-DW squad accomplish a mission against a similar objective in similar circumstances???

Sargaent Tarkus, DoW II novelisation.
Aramus, DoW II novelisation.
Sargaent Constantinus, Codex Chaos Space Marines.

Index Astartes III DW Section: Once in the employ of the DW, there is no set length of service and it's members will remain together as long s its commander deems neccessary

Hot diggity damn, seems that Pain rack's concerns over "ANOTHER problem vis a vis Vietnam" doesnt exist and he didn't read that source material

Maybe you "might" try reading the posts instead. Deathwatch RPG, which I quoted states that Deathwatch members are traditionally deployed for one mission. However, the mission definition may be considered to be one vigil, one campaign or years or etc.


Zinegata, I will ask this politely once more. Just what will it take to invalidate your hypothesis?

Moreover, it puts to shame your own argument about the DW's inefficiency. You claim that the DW is inefficient. You claim they use Gladius frigates to carry DW teams around regularly (even if it might not necessarily be commonplace). But hey, the Space Marines are just as inefficient too - because they seriously don't have any other fucking ship to truck around invidual squads bu the Gladius either.

Do yourself a favor and shut up.

Also... Would you STOP distorting my statements? I claimed that collecting recruits singly means that the manpower flow is unreliable, when compared to direct recruitment of your own. The two situations are simply not comparable. I didn't even CLAIM that the Deathwatch uses the Gladius to transport marines regularly. I used it to point out that your fucking objections isn't internally consistent..

Its annoying. You reported me to the mods because you claimed I failed to provide any evidence and put up an WOI. Yet...................... your constant distortion of my statements, ignoring my posts/evidence, absolute refusal to invalidate your hypothesis........

I haven't done anything but "rail" at you. Sorry, I'm a crybaby? Who's the one who went running off to the mod?

[Cykeisme]

Mweh, I don't know if comparing the cost of sending ships to fetch Astartes from their chapters versus the cost of creating an Astartes and giving him a century of combat experience is really fair.

The creation of an Astartes, the infrastructure involved in their creation, and the kind of experience to produce what is considered a veteran is insane. Despite the slow pace of FTL travel in 40k, I'm pretty sure it's still easier and cheaper to just get guys from existing chapters!

[Black Admiral]

The "Deathwatch secondment as punishment" has happened before; Shadow-Captain Moron - sorry, Korvydae - from IA8 gets sent (or, more accurately, sends himself) on a two-year penitent secondment to the Deathwatch after fucking up (major understatement) the Kastorel-Novem raid.

Personally I think that's just a cover for Captain Shrike having him shot and dumped in an unmarked grave for being either the dumbest fucker ever to wear the Raven Guard 10th Captain's heraldry or actively a traitor, but that's just me.

The RPG states that the Chapter don't send inferior warriors to the Deathwatch. However, it clearly isn't above sending warriors on a penitant crusade into the Deathwatch.

Yes, I'm aware of this. However, given Korvydae's demonstrated and completely indefensible incompetence in the execution of/deliberate sabotage of his mission on Kastorel-Novem, in the first place I'm not convinced the Deathwatch would take him, and in the second I am fairly sure that the Raven Guard would kill him on sight for wasting nearly a hundred of their brethren thanks to being a completely useless fuckup (incidentally, most stupid statement the IA books have ever contained: the idea that the Raven Guard needed to learn the lesson "Don't give an utterly useless & incompetent moron command responsibilities").

[DPDarkPrimus]

The Deathwatch never seems to be in want of Marines. The Chapters take their obligation to supply Marines seriously.

[Simon_Jester]

Might they send an incompetent officer to join the Deathwatch as a regular battle-brother? A Marine captain who gets his men killed isn't necessarily an inferior fighter; he's just a terrible leader. Sending him off to the Deathwatch to fight under the command of someone else entirely could make sense.

[Connor MacLeod]

I imagine they can even send off a battle brother simply due to politics. Astartes as a rule dislike politics of the sort practiced by other branches of the Impeirum, but they still have their own little internal conflicts, rivalries, competitions, etc. - especially amongst the higher echelons (Example is from assault on Black Reach and the inter-chapter Politics of the Ultramarines, esp. WRT Sicarius. McNeill's POV on Ultramarines carries this as well.)

That said "Plays well with others" is a prime requirement for Deathwatch duty, because you will have many chapters serving together who may otherwise conflict with one another outside the organization (EG Black Templars contribute IIRC, and they have a pathological hatred of psykers, but since the Deathwatch does recruit Librarians, they'll need to be rather tolerant - even if they dislike it - to work together in the Deathwatch.) Nevermind that serving in the inquisition as a rule requires Marines who are going to be mentally adaptable, because Inquisitors will do things that many Astartes would find dishonorable or abhorrent.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Well the Deathwatch isn't above using hypno-conditioning and mental blocks so that Marines will be able to do things they would normally refuse to, though admittedly this was in reference to Deathwatch Kill-Marines, rather than a full squad.

[Simon_Jester]

That said "Plays well with others" is a prime requirement for Deathwatch duty...

Ah, but "can lead his way out of a wet paper bag" is not.

Which is why I'm thinking that this kind of 'penitent crusade' method of sending Marines to the Deathwatch may be in place as a way of simultaneously busting bad officers to the ranks and getting them out of the Chapter away from the irritable supersoldiers who might otherwise wish them dead.

[DPDarkPrimus]

If the Deathwatch RPG is anything to go off of, the mission leader for the kill-team is decided upon on a mission by mission basis.

[PainRack]

Squad by squad, team by team, the black-clad Scouts of the Raven Guard scattered themselves across the Forsarr sector, using their well-honed skills in concealment and observation to infiltrate Ork-held worlds. Secretly, they set up observation posts and surveillance equipment and then vanished before the Orks knew they had ever arrived.

IA 8.
Another "exception" to the norm of "squad" deployment. And of course, despite any logistic issues, the Raven Guard had no problems with deploying squads across the Forsarr sector, even while recalling their own Space Marine companies back to Deliverance.

[NecronLord]

Let this thread lie, please. It's been enough of a headache. The advantages of the Deathwatch have been answered.

They are better trained to engage xenos in their own environments.

They are faster to replace losses and to expand.

Those are both pretty fine advantages.