Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?

[Batman]

Small problem with that-the Borg didn't engage any planet in the solar system, including Mars. They blew away whatever those three thingies launched by the Mars defense perimeter were and that was it.

[Stark]

Sometimes I really worry about your tiny, tiny brain. They were driving at Earth, genius. What do you think they were going to do when they got there? Just say TAG YOU'RE IT and leave again?

If they were going to take it over, or even destroy it, it's reasonable to assume they didn't want to be interrupted; at the time, the borg seemed very bad at multitasking or decision-making, and destroying the only local force that can respond makes sense. This would certainly buy them many hours (perhaps even longer) without interference.

'Oh but they drove past Mars! wah wah wah'

[Batman]

Err-f that was in response to my last post, that one was in response to Jason, not you.I realize talking to JasonB is essentially pointless but hey, it passes the time.

[PREDATOR490]

Engaging at Wolf 359 makes a decent amount of sense if the Borg want to avoid the confrontation later. Trying to assimilate Earth while 40 ships pound away or begin evacuating the planet would hamper Borg assimilation efforts and one ship will not be able to cover ALL of Earth from escaping.

Additionally, attacking the fleet at Wolf 359 effectively cripples a massive source of resistance the Federation is capable of mounting. The E-D was capable of being a pain in the cube's ass long enough without having 40 more ships added to the mix. Killing the Admiral who would organise that resistance further increases the chances the Borg will be able to proceed unchallenged.

Alternatively, the Borg may not be able to sustain their super warp-speed while an ongoing firefight rages around them. In which case, the Borg have ample reason to exterminate the fleet or they are going to have a trailing party behind them which they will have to deal with EVENTUALLY so doing it sooner rather than later would be rather efficient.

Voyager established the cube was assimilating folks at Wolf 359 - A recruiting splurge before they go on a mass assimilation of Earth with the added benefit they can mind rape more Feds for tactical information etc.

As for the cube blasting through them easily. The brief clip seen in DS9 shows the Fed attack was disorganised with no focus fire, the same situation seen in First Contact. When some bright Fed managed to take control of the fleet and focus fire the cube gets hammered. It seems reasonable the Borg did so well at Wolf 359 and First Contact because they destroyed the Admiral ships early in the fight leaving the rest of the Feds in a cluster fuck of trying to organise themselves.

As for blazing through Mars, that is the location of the Federation shipyards. Possible the Borg were doing a flyby scan / attack of the defences to size them up for assimilation when the Borg have hit Earth.

[Ahriman238]

The Cube could outrun the big E in the long run, she was capable of keeping up for several hours if memory serves, and the fleet had the distinct advantage of starting out ahead of the Cube. Might have given them enough of a lead to be a bother for enough longer than the what, ten minutes it took to get rid of them to make it doing it at impulse worthwhile?
Or it was just Picard being a cunt. As I said, I don't think we're ever actually given an explanation*. Heck for all we know Wolf 359 was the Toll Booth on the Evil Guy Invading Sector 001 highway and the Borg slowed down to pay the toll.

*Which with Trek is not necessarily a bad thing. I prefer no explanation at all over an explanation that positively makes no sense.

Late but, lol.

[JasonB]

Plain simple Shock and aw the reason assimilate Picard and why attack the UFP fleet and show up every planet in the solar system. They used similar tactic on another alien race listen story he tell watch this video form 2 minute and 48 seconds to about 3 minute.

[Thanas]

^You were told to improve your grammar and spelling. Yet you do neither.

The clock is ticking....

[Darth Fanboy]

But Jason the two documented Borg attempted invasions against Earth (Best of Both Worlds + First Contact) involved only one cube, they did not surround Earth with a fleet like in the Voyager example you linked to. So it wasn't exactly the same tactic.

[JasonB]

But Jason the two documented Borg attempted invasions against Earth (Best of Both Worlds + First Contact) involved only one cube, they did not surround Earth with a fleet like in the Voyager example you linked to. So it wasn't exactly the same tactic.

No but it very similar tactic.

[Multiverse]

But Jason the two documented Borg attempted invasions against Earth (Best of Both Worlds + First Contact) involved only one cube, they did not surround Earth with a fleet like in the Voyager example you linked to. So it wasn't exactly the same tactic.

No but it very similar tactic.

I don't see the similarity. The Borg attacks on Earth seem more like surgical strikes. The cited example from Voyager seems more like an application of overwhelming force. Not incidentally, the lack of clarity with which you express your points makes it harder to answer the question of why the Borg would need Picard. The main difficulty in understanding Picard's role in the Borg's plans is that, while we know a lot about Borg tactics against the Federation, we don't really know that much about Borg tactics against other groups.

[StarSword]

What tactics? From what I've seen, the Borg uniformly use unimaginative brute-force attacks against defenses (in FC, they basically flew in a straight line and shot at any ship within reach), then assimilate any survivors. Works fine against local species in the Delta Quadrant (who are on average weaker than the Borg or the major players in Quadrants Alpha through Gamma). Does not work well against people with inside information, like the Federation post-Wolf 359, or species with oddball immune systems like Denobulans (ENT: "Regeneration") or 8472.

Oh, and JasonB? I think I speak for the rest of the board when I say you're really getting on our nerves. RTFM.

[Darth Fanboy]

Not that I think I can convince him but I'd love to read the response.

Jason I don't see any similarity whatsoever in the two situations. In one scenario a solitary cube attempts to delve right into the heart of an interplanetary power and conquer the capital in one fell swoop. In the other a massive swarm of Borg systematically invades and assimilates from the outer colonies on in to the center. Obviously one of these two approaches was successful, because it was a completely different tactic. The latter approach isn't so much "shock and awe" as it is the application of superior numbers and/or firepower, I'm not even sure the Borg are entirely capable of understanding psychological warfare and would possibly dismiss such fears as irrelevant, they don't even understand why a species would resist assimilation.

Oh, and JasonB? I think I speak for the rest of the board when I say you're really getting on our nerves. RTFM.

Pot calling kettle black.

[StarSword]

Come to think of it, does anyone have an explanation why they would use multiple cubes against planetary powers in the Delta Quadrant, but single cubes against a major power in the Alpha Quadrant (twice)? Does not compute.

[Ahriman238]

Come to think of it, does anyone have an explanation why they would use multiple cubes against planetary powers in the Delta Quadrant, but single cubes against a major power in the Alpha Quadrant (twice)? Does not compute.

Possibly even for the Borg it's easier to support and move a fleet in their own backyard then on the other side of the galaxy? Maybe they figured the Federation got lucky the first time (which they did) and they shouldn't really need multiple cubes to do the job?

[Darth Fanboy]

In Universe:

-Prelude to an actual attack, intelligence gathering by measuring the Federation's response to just one cube. We know information made it back to the Delta Quadrant, so perhaps the Borg failed to respond with a larger force because they felt the Federation's discovery of how to induce a self destruct was a serious deterrent, or perhaps they felt that despite the successes that the Federation was no longer worth the resources at the time.

-It is possible that the Borg got what they really wanted out of the whole deal, and perhaps felt the Federation worthy enough to "cultivate" in that they would allow the UFP to develop further making them more useful when assimilated later.

-Perhaps the distance between the UFP's territory and the Borg's home base in the Delta Quadrant was vast enough that at the time sending more than one cube was not practical.

-They felt that the time-travel plan used in First Contact would be a more effective solution.

Out of Universe:

-Unimaginative writers mishandling of one of the most iconic villains in Star Trek's, and perhaps all of science fiction's, history. Voyager contributes the most to this negligence knowing that adding in the Borg will guarantee thousands of additional viewers that were losing interest in the show as it wore on.

[Stofsk]

I wouldn't call it unimaginative. I had a pet theory that the Borg Collective was actually a diffuse organisation where single cubes roamed the galaxy doing what they do. Each cube is a 'collective' unto itself, and should it meet up with another cube it would be strengthened by it but it wouldn't suit their goal of exploring space looking for technology/resources to consume.

This neatly explains the Borg cube that the Enterprise encounters in 'Q Who' and later on in 'Best of Both Worlds'. Hugh would have been a drone onboard another cube that had no connection to the previous encountered and subsequently destroyed cube. This would also explain why the 'tech' 'solution' wouldn't work as planned by Geordie and Data. It would take out the cube Hugh belonged to, and maybe any other cubes it should happen to encounter in the allotted 'incubation' period (or whatever, I don't know but it was essentially a computer virus they planned to upload into the collective). This in turn is sort of backed up by 'Descent' when the Enterprise crew encounters the remnants and consequences of their decision to return Hugh to his cube. Obviously only Hugh's collective was affected by his return, not the entire collective.

I think the Borg, as represented in the show, made for a very alarming and dangerous threat when treated like this- basically space nomads of incredible power who are virtually unstoppable in just one ship, and definitely unstoppable in large numbers (like what is implied to have happened to Guinan's people). As per Q, their only motivation is to consume resources, assimilate other societies by force, and acquire their technology. A threat that was pretty much unlike anything ever really encountered before on Star Trek, save perhaps as a combination of TOS' Nomad and the Planet Killer.

What I would call unimaginative really is First Contact and the decision to make a character like the Borg Queen. So... completely... retarded. Everything about the Borg up until that point had eschewed such a character being in charge of the Borg. As far as I'm concerned, I disregard First Contact because it really was a stupid film (which is a shame because it's the only watchable TNG film).

[Darth Fanboy]

I wouldn't call it unimaginative. I had a pet theory that the Borg Collective was actually a diffuse organisation where single cubes roamed the galaxy doing what they do. Each cube is a 'collective' unto itself, and should it meet up with another cube it would be strengthened by it but it wouldn't suit their goal of exploring space looking for technology/resources to consume.

Which would have been better than what we saw in the show. I think the writers for Voyager wanted the Borg so badly to boost interest in the episodes, but they were unable to properly do so. IF they had come up with a better enemy than the Kazon right off the bat then it might not have been necessary.

This neatly explains the Borg cube that the Enterprise encounters in 'Q Who' and later on in 'Best of Both Worlds'. (snip rest of this part)

I can agree with most of this.

What I would call unimaginative really is First Contact and the decision to make a character like the Borg Queen. So... completely... retarded. Everything about the Borg up until that point had eschewed such a character being in charge of the Borg. As far as I'm concerned, I disregard First Contact because it really was a stupid film (which is a shame because it's the only watchable TNG film).

The Queen could have worked, *if* she had been a Locutus like figure that "adapted" because the Borg determined a more individualistic Borg would have an effect on their enemies, and it did work to an extent. Unfortunately she was not exectured well and also kept on after the movie.

[Darth Fanboy]

Heh. Imagine this: they threw the fight at the end. They attacked only to kick the Federation into a tech path that benefits them - more guns and shit. They didn't want to take them out, so when the sleep command came in, they self-destructed to keep up a charade.

Then, when Janeway shows up and helps them with species 8472, it vindicates this course of action; they harvested the crop.


Just fun to think about.

Well if you go by their original TNG incarnation it makes great sense since they wanted to add technological distinctiveness and assimilation wasn't just done with a quick injection.

[DaveJB]

The Queen could have worked, *if* she had been a Locutus like figure that "adapted" because the Borg determined a more individualistic Borg would have an effect on their enemies, and it did work to an extent.

You could actually have construed her as being such a thing in First Contact, if not for all the other Borg dying at the same time as her. They should have had it so that the Queen recalled all the other drones to engineering to assist in dealing with Picard and Data, only for them to be wiped out by the plasma coolant.

Granted, Voyager would probably have gone on to fuck up the concept of the Queen anyway, but it'd at least remove one of the more annoying parts of the film.

[Johonebesus]

The Queen could have worked if they had depicted her as just an avatar or voice for the Collective. That seemed to be the intent, but they just mucked it up so badly.

[Darth Tedious]

Her role as it was might have even worked she'd been introduced after Hugh's individuality infected the Collective (assuming it affected all of them), instead of the bullshit idea that she'd 'been there all along'.
Really, it was just bad writing for the film to try and give the impression that the Borg had been defeated...

[Stofsk]

It's interesting how the far superior 'Best of Both Worlds' dealt with the whole 'individualised Borg enemy' in the form of Locutus. At one point they surmised that their interconnectedness was their achilles heel - they had access to many of the borg's most protected directives just by kidnapping Locutus and interfacing with him. Even so, killing Locutus would not have killed all the borg, but by utilising his knowledge they could do to the Borg what they had done to Starfleet at Wolf 359.

Of course by First Contact the Borg had become Space Vampires lead by a Space Queen Dracula Vampiress who once slain killed all the other Space Vampire Borg

[aussiemuscle308]

I tend to agree that the whole 'Q' thing probably interested the Borg, and definitely accelerated their contact with the Federation.

I think the Borg were more interested in Q, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered sending a scout ship (face it, one cube is no threat to the federation, particularly if you want to assure victory). capturing Picard gave them his knowledge of the Q.

[Skylon]

I think the Borg were more interested in Q, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered sending a scout ship (face it, one cube is no threat to the federation, particularly if you want to assure victory). capturing Picard gave them his knowledge of the Q.

Other than Q warping the Enterprise the fuck out of their space, did the Borg at any point really take any notice of Q? He was with the crew when they first encountered a drone, but there is no evidence that they thought he wasn't just some guy on the ship.

I don't see any evidence though that the Borg connected Q's powers to him, per-se in that episode. They were probably confused as hell as to how the Ent-D got there in the first place, and then got thrown back across the galaxy. If they learned details about the Q, it would have been when they captured Picard.

[Darth Tanner]

face it, one cube is no threat to the federation, particularly if you want to assure victory

Sure it is, as has been mentioned both times a Borg cube comes knocking it smashes through all of Starfleet’s defences only to be stopped by unexpected plot based weakness. Even after Starfleet has time to build up for a Borg incursion with ships like the Defiant the entire fleet is only capable of inflicting surface damage and the Cube still makes it to Earth leaving a trail of blown up star ships.

If they learned details about the Q, it would have been when they captured Picard.

If the Borg were interested in how the Enterprise performed the super speed jump that Q gave them that interest should have died once they assimilated Picard. Could be a reason it took so long for a second cube to be dispatched, their interest waned once they realised the Federation tech was not as advanced as they had observed in their first encounter.

Come to think of it, does anyone have an explanation why they would use multiple cubes against planetary powers in the Delta Quadrant, but single cubes against a major power in the Alpha Quadrant (twice)? Does not compute.

Perhaps their not the same sort of cube, the huge cubes invading Earth may be special long distance battleships whilst the ones we see in Voyager are mass produced pieces of shit that just operate in and around Borg space itself with much less capabilities.