The Land of "Not Enough"

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-02 04:46pm

A good topic was brought up today that included these United States (and we can count Canada as well). We are a land so jaded by materialism, and yet regardless of how much one aquires, it is never enough. It is though a vacuum exists within us that we constantly try to fill with the accumulation of things (houses, vehicles, etc.). Is there such thing as enough? We constantly find ourselves saying, "If I just get that one key thing, it will be enough, and I will be content." And yet, it is never so -- look at the "filthy rich" who say they are not content -- there is yet something missing, is room for more. In this land of plenty, it would seem we should be a content people, and yet whiners and those steeped in depression abound.

Thoughts, discussion?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-02 05:04pm

Maybe it has something to do with the belief that material well-being is superior to finding fulfillment through relationships with others. Material well-being is great; I don't think it is going to make us worse off (mentally) by itself, I think there are other factors that cause that.

When I graduated High School, my freshman geography teacher, one of the most popular teachers in the school, gave a speech basically saying that material acquisition is ultimately not going to be the important thing in our lives. What will really matter, in the end, is how many people can say "you are one of my greatest blessings" to you. I may seem a bit hypocritical speaking like this, given that the primary drive of my life is material acquisition, but that's what I think.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-02 05:09pm

Durran Korr wrote:Maybe it has something to do with the belief that material well-being is superior to finding fulfillment through relationships with others. Material well-being is great; I don't think it is going to make us worse off (mentally) by itself, I think there are other factors that cause that.

When I graduated High School, my freshman geography teacher, one of the most popular teachers in the school, gave a speech basically saying that material acquisition is ultimately not going to be the important thing in our lives. What will really matter, in the end, is how many people can say "you are one of my greatest blessings" to you. I may seem a bit hypocritical speaking like this, given that the primary drive of my life is material acquisition, but that's what I think.

That's a good point. I remember someone saying, "Do you want to see that on which relationships are wrecked and families are broken apart? Go, and look at a junkyard. There you will see that over which men have sold out their marriages." Perspective and focus has much to do with how we choose to view life.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-02 05:12pm

jegs2 wrote:A good topic was brought up today that included these United States (and we can count Canada as well). We are a land so jaded by materialism, and yet regardless of how much one aquires, it is never enough. It is though a vacuum exists within us that we constantly try to fill with the accumulation of things (houses, vehicles, etc.). Is there such thing as enough? We constantly find ourselves saying, "If I just get that one key thing, it will be enough, and I will be content." And yet, it is never so -- look at the "filthy rich" who say they are not content -- there is yet something missing, is room for more. In this land of plenty, it would seem we should be a content people, and yet whiners and those steeped in depression abound.

Thoughts, discussion?

I think it relates to our animal nature. Many types of animals tend to hoard food and jealously defend territory, because they instinctively try to prepare for the possibility of starvation. Magnify this instinct to human behaviour, and you have the mindset of the collector, the accumulator, the hoarder, the rich man who can never have enough money. It's not a conscious act, but rather, an instinctive feeling that more is always better.

As for depression, one has a range of good and bad in one's life. People for whom starvation is an ever-present possibility have a range that goes from good (a warm, sunny day with food in your belly and no aches or pains in your body) to bad (starvation, watching your kids die of disease and malnutrition). If the bad rarely happens, they are happy.

In America, the range in a typical teenager's experience goes from good (getting a new car as a birthday gift from Dad) to bad (being dumped by your girlfriend, not having many friends, or being unsure of your self-identity). Since things like loneliness are just about the worst thing a typical teenager in America experiences, we run into the odd situation where an American teenager spends more time near the bottom of his personal range than some people in underdeveloped nations. Hence needless depression in the land of plenty.

That's my personal theory, anyway.

Alex Moon · Post by **Alex Moon** » 2003-03-02 05:26pm

Our society has become more obsessed with control over image, and conformity. How many societies in the history of mankind have had the concept of a 'play date'? We send our kids to preschool, then afterpreschool then sports practice and, oh yeah, I guess they should have a chance to have some fun. Well, as long as it's approved fun.

Childhood is no longer learning about the world through play, now it's going to school and being told what the world is. If your noisy and alive, you're pumped full of drugs to keep you quiet. No longer is every facet of personality a chance for a child to become a unique human being; now it's a problem for those who want conformity. The child with the wild imagination is a problem nowadays, because for too many people he's something that their afraid to deal with, because it's something they can't control.

Education isn't about insperation, about teaching kids that the world is what they make of it. It's about indoctronation, about providing "job skills", about parents controlling how their children see the world, so they can control who their children are. Creation Science anyone?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-02 05:36pm

Alex Moon wrote:Our society has become more obsessed with control over image, and conformity. How many societies in the history of mankind have had the concept of a 'play date'? We send our kids to preschool, then afterpreschool then sports practice and, oh yeah, I guess they should have a chance to have some fun. Well, as long as it's approved fun.

What's so bad about "play dates"? We have Matthew's friends over to play and it has to be arranged because parents must drop off kids, know where they are, etc. You can't just pick up his friends at school and bring them back to your house without making arrangements first, or you'll wind up at the police station. It's not about strictly controlling and approving the kind of play they engage in; it's about living in a world where parents are reluctant to let their little kids wander the streets and understandably want to know where they are.

Childhood is no longer learning about the world through play, now it's going to school and being told what the world is. If your noisy and alive, you're pumped full of drugs to keep you quiet. No longer is every facet of personality a chance for a child to become a unique human being; now it's a problem for those who want conformity. The child with the wild imagination is a problem nowadays, because for too many people he's something that their afraid to deal with, because it's something they can't control.

That's a lazy educators' problem. If you talk to enough teachers, you become quite aware that their notion of the perfect child is based on how easily they can be ignored and left by themselves with a menial task.

Education isn't about insperation, about teaching kids that the world is what they make of it. It's about indoctronation, about providing "job skills", about parents controlling how their children see the world, so they can control who their children are. Creation Science anyone?

While interesting, I don't think this really has anything to do with the "society of greed" issue that jegs2 brought up.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-03-02 05:44pm

Speaking of Teachers guess what I just found out?

My Local Principle of the High School makes roughly only 95% as much as the Manager of the Local McDonalds does, and the Principle makes twice as much as the Teachers do...

Maybe its just the fact this place is so Rural but even then, Teachers pay have always been rediciously low and as they say, The Talent goes where there is money

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-02 05:57pm

Mr Bean wrote:Speaking of Teachers guess what I just found out?

My Local Principle of the High School makes roughly only 95% as much as the Manager of the Local McDonalds does, and the Principle makes twice as much as the Teachers do...

Maybe its just the fact this place is so Rural but even then, Teachers pay have always been rediciously low and as they say, The Talent goes where there is money

My mother has been teaching for nearly 20 years and holds a Masters. Yet as a captain, I make more than she does.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-03 12:38am

I know all about behaving and sitting still. When I was very young, I was diagnosed with ADHD, which I think is a bullshit excuse for Ritalin and Prozac companies to make money. I was always hyper compared to other kids, but I can safely say I had (and still have) the wildest imagination of anyone I know. I never did very well in school, and apart from my near-total apathy and laziness was my disillusionment with their world-view. I mean, I'm poor, and will probably always will be, but I don't mind at all. My one grandmother is the regional sales manager for Avon, and she would get on my case to go to college and get a good-paying job and about other ways to get the most money out of life. I want to be a fucking muscian, or a sci-fi author. Only in certain circumstances do those things make you rich. I don't care for money much. I've grown up with only a few things, and I was happy. I would see my friends with their super-ultra mountain bikes while I had a bike made from cobbeled-together parts from '60-'70s bicycles. We still have a rotary phone and NO microwave. Though it would be nice to have a microwave, I've grown up without using one very often.

Baron Mordo · Post by **Baron Mordo** » 2003-03-03 12:59am

Hey! I had ADD too! Or maybe I still do. I haven't taken the drugs for about seven years now. Anyway, about the materialism topic...

People need something they can believe in. It's easy to believe in a world where what you can touch/hold/acquire is just about all that matters. It means you don't have to think about spiritual matters. I think a vacuum does exist in people, because they've lost some kind of spiritual balance. A lot of these people come from the middle-class-not-practising-but-still-christian group, and have migrated from a god-fearing mindset to a spiritually malleable and rudderless one. So materialism steps in to fill the gap.

More on this later, I think.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-03-03 02:12am

I think materialism is at its worst during good economic times. During the boom it was crazy here. Houses were appreciating 10's of thousands of dollars each month. Home values doubled in 4 years. People were day trading, buying lots of stuff they could not afford. BMW's had 6 month waiting lists, etc.

Now times are different. 20% of ALL jobs have been lost in Santa Clara Valley since 2000. Ive noticed that people are interested in quit nights out, pot lucks, walks in the park. Things that are cheap but involve your best friends are really important now.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-03 02:19am

I figure uncontrolled materialism usually derives from some need that isn't fulfilled. Psychological perhaps.

Don't get me wrong, I love stuff. I have a lot of stuff. And I know exactly what stuff I want, and it isn't infinite.

Seems to me that those that whine about wanting more stuff, are troubled in a way that has nothing to do with what they think they want.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-03-03 02:36am

neoolong wrote:I figure uncontrolled materialism usually derives from some need that isn't fulfilled. Psychological perhaps.

Don't get me wrong, I love stuff. I have a lot of stuff. And I know exactly what stuff I want, and it isn't infinite.

Seems to me that those that whine about wanting more stuff, are troubled in a way that has nothing to do with what they think they want.

I would tend to agree with this. I let my desires to own a home led me to buy in a very unstable market. I felt really bad, that I was "behind" my friends and peers in terms of home, family, and career.

I think a lot of material needs are substitutes for psychological needs.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-03 02:46am

The mantra of independence is part of it. Nothing is more psychologically devastating to the average North American than to be told that he needs to ask for help, instead of "making it on your own". Everyone has to have their own house, their own car (egads, how can a family function without one car for each member?), etc.

Psychologists even have this term called "codependence" in which it is deemed psychologically unhealthy to be married to a spouse upon whom you feel dependent in some way; supposedly better to have a marriage where each partner doesn't really need the other at all.

Money is a big part of independence (indeed, the phrase "financial independence" is a big selling point).

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-03-03 10:16am

jegs2 wrote:A good topic was brought up today that included these United States (and we can count Canada as well). We are a land so jaded by materialism, and yet regardless of how much one aquires, it is never enough. It is though a vacuum exists within us that we constantly try to fill with the accumulation of things (houses, vehicles, etc.). Is there such thing as enough? We constantly find ourselves saying, "If I just get that one key thing, it will be enough, and I will be content." And yet, it is never so -- look at the "filthy rich" who say they are not content -- there is yet something missing, is room for more. In this land of plenty, it would seem we should be a content people, and yet whiners and those steeped in depression abound.

This "more is better" mentality is a natural by-product of a capitalist economy, due to the capitalist doctrine that personal success should be measured in wealth. In other words - the belief that the wealthy deserve to be so, and are "better people" than the poor. I guess that it might be this which causes this mentality.

Darth Wong wrote:The mantra of independence is part of it. Nothing is more psychologically devastating to the average North American than to be told that he needs to ask for help, instead of "making it on your own". Everyone has to have their own house, their own car (egads, how can a family function without one car for each member?), etc.

Quite funny - this mantra of independence which you describes is quite rare here in Europe - my father once claimed that world pollution would be significantly lower if each American family didn't have two 4WD vehicles which they never took off-road. However, having several cars per family is not unknown in Europe - at a point, my family (which is a low-end middle class family) had an old Daihatsu Charade, a Nissan Micra and a 1977 VW Passat at the same time. However, my brother got rid of his Passat after some time (I think he had trouble finding spare parts) and we quickly scrapped the Daihatsu.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-03-03 12:30pm

Quite funny - this mantra of independence which you describes is quite rare here in Europe - my father once claimed that world pollution would be significantly lower if each American family didn't have two 4WD vehicles which they never took off-road. However, having several cars per family is not unknown in Europe - at a point, my family (which is a low-end middle class family) had an old Daihatsu Charade, a Nissan Micra and a 1977 VW Passat at the same time. However, my brother got rid of his Passat after some time (I think he had trouble finding spare parts) and we quickly scrapped the Daihatsu.

The physicial layout of most North American cities makes it near impossible to make a living without your own car. Im talking adults, not teens. People commute most often from suburb to suburb and not suburb to city center.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-03-03 02:23pm

If I may draw a distinction between collector and materialist:

I would brand myself a collector, but not a materialist. The actual material value of the items I collect only serve to rate the rarity of the item, not the value I place on it myself. The appeal is having something that is not readily available. Often I'll value something because of how it relates to myself and my general interests (reflects who I am, ie personal collecting) and others simply because its desired by others (social collecting).

So if you want to get all psychological on me, the base instincts/emotions that I'm satisfying (IMHO):

-I enjoy seeing myself reflected in the items I have (I on some level identify with the item). So perhaps by improving my collection I feel that I am somehow improving myself.

-Socially, I feel that having something of value, I am placing myself in a better position socially.

Of course, the key thing is understand why your doing something, and understand that although someone may be satisfying his/her collecting "urge", he/she isn't actually solving any real world problems. Those need to be thought out rationally and acted apon.

----

As for materialism, I wouldn't concider myself afflicted with this problem. I know what I have, I know what I want, and like others have said, its finite. So for example, when I bought my car, I reviewed whats available versus what I could afford; in the end this determined what I *wanted*. So although a BMW would be nice... I don't *really* want one.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-03-03 02:40pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:Though it would be nice to have a microwave, I've grown up without using one very often.

That's not too bad, considering that microwave-cooked food tends to taste very strange due to the way it's heated.

Our microwave broke down a while ago, and I don't really care much... just use the stove and oven more often now.

Butterbean569 · Post by **Butterbean569** » 2003-03-06 09:03pm

People in any country will always want to have "just one more". When it comes down to it, this attitude isn't all bad. It gives people the drive to get up and actually do something instead of drooling on themselves. Answer me this....how many of you would get up and go to work if you didn't get paid? Although I'm sure a couple people will say they would...I doubt if more than 10% of the population would agree. Mike's discussed this on his website...how those Feddies are commies. Damn commies

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-03-06 09:19pm

You got it! Everyone wants more stuff, it's the way people are. you won't find a country in the world where people don't do what they think will improve their way of life. Selfishness and materialism are hardly American diseases- it's just that they are more obvious here in the land of 25 oz steaks and SUVs

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-06 09:20pm

Thirdfain wrote:You got it! Everyone wants more stuff, it's the way people are. you won't find a country in the world where people don't do what they think will improve their way of life. Selfishness and materialism are hardly American diseases- it's just that they are more obvious here in the land of 25 oz steaks and SUVs

Hey, 25 oz is a medium sized-steak.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-03-06 09:41pm

I also believe that part of the problem is endemic to capitalism.
There are two ways to structure your life, (with some mixing possible) and those are:
process oriented, and goal oriented behaviour.

Process is based on the saying, "life is not a destination, but a journey."
This makes people happy, as they enjoy their day to day living, but these people seldom change the world, or get rich, or build great things.

Process=Enjoy the PROCESS, of living.

Goal orientation, is not liking what you do, but gritting your teeth, and doing it anyway, because the payoff is ALWAYS greater, the longer the delay of gratification.
This approach let's you do great things, achieve much, get rich, ect...
The BIG downside is, an other saying,"NOBODY on their deathbed regrets not putting in more overtime in their job."

Goal=I hate my job, but the pay lets me play with expencive toys on my days off.

As I get older, the process approach is getting more and more attractive.
Besides, if your life had a fast forward on your time on earth, how many of us would "skip the commercials", and the boring parts, only to dicover, much to their dismay, their life is almost over! (Fuck, I guess the majority of life isn't the part we want to be in.)

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-03-06 09:45pm

As to the relavance of capitalism, that should be obvious.
The goal orientaion is WAY more productive, and your output is a measure of the man. (At least in a hell bent for prodution country like the USA, or Japan, or Korea for that matter.)
Status is directly linked to income.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-03-06 09:53pm

what´s wrong with wanting more stuff?
i want a dryer!
i want a new computer.
i want a new stereo.
(i dont have a microwave and dont want one because besides potatoes the food that comes out of microwaves sucks!!!

)

you just need to see to that getting more stuff is not you´r main point in life. there are more important things such as friends, women, job, snowboarding...

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2003-03-07 08:27am

I think it could be a cultural thing.

Example: Here in Ireland there is a HUGE amount of people who own their own houses. Something that is quite apart from many in mainland Europe who could happily rent for their entire lives.

I believe, and many of my Business & Economics lecturers have noted that it is based mainly in Irelands past, where it was impossible for many to own land under British Rule.

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