Fire Nation in Middle Earth

[Gurgeh]

So let's say that the Fire Nation from ATLA show was taken from their world and placed in Middle Earth. They are placed just 50 miles from the Grey Havens and they have all their forces from the war back at the homeland. The timeline for the FN is at the begining of the show. How will the ME deal with the Fire Nation?
How will the FN do against ME during the second or third age?
The FN have the ability to firebend in the LOTR universe
Sozins comet is now in ME and will come every 100 years

[Themightytom]

The Fire nation leadership appears prone to personal ambition, I suspect Sauron would supplant the fire lord with a little ring bribery, and then all hell would break loose. The elves could put up a fight as long as the FN didn't just burn down their forest. The Ents would be entirely screwed. The dwarves are kind of sitting ducks in their mountains, but unless the FN wants to lay siege to them they can't just "Smoke them out" or anything. The white city might be in trouble when the FN shows up with their blimps too.

[Gurgeh]

So how would ME do if Sauron had no corrupting abilitys like the ring?

[Ahriman238]

Shouldn't this be in Fantasy?

Even without the Ring, I think the Fire Nation leadership would be more likely to embrace Sauron as an ally than the Free Peoples. True, they would eventually backstab him, but that's probably just as true of the Easterlings and Haradrim.

Failing that, if they understand enough about the situation and the sides involved, they may become a third force for a while. I doubt it would happen, but it could be interesting.

[avatarxprime]

I don't think the Fire Nation is going to ally with anyone. This is Ozai in charge, he has sought to only exterminate anyone who he can't dominate and certainly isn't the personality type to take orders willingly. I imagine the only reason he didn't pull an Ursa and murder his father was because he does have some respect for Fire Nation tradition as well as respect for his father and brother at that point in time. With this being at the start of the show, such family loyalty has long since left Ozai. I imagine the FN becomes a third force that others try to ally with due to their power, and any who do will soon expect to be other thrown like what Azula did in Ba Sing Se.

So, upon being randomly teleported into Middle Earth, the Fire Nation is going to be on the lookout for easy to capture territory. Keep in mind that in the show they had made significant in roads to the Earth Kingdom and had set up industry there to help fuel their war machine. Also, being transported to ME means they lose the Mechanist since he was in an Air temple, which means no Blimps. Now, if by Fire Nation Earth001 also means their territories in the Earth Kingdom that changes things and their development should closely mirror that shown in the show.

[Themightytom]

That's a good point. I don't see those fire tanks doing much against the walls of Helm's deep or the White city but Hobbiton is screwed!

Um Earth001 we COULD do that but isn't that essentially stacking the deck for the Fire nation? Sauron's whole thing is he corrupts men with his influence. The Fire Nation leader DOES seems corrupted by the promise of power. By Corrupted I mean batshit insane at the end of the series. His daughter is a lunatic too, who knows how his son would have turned out if he hadn't been banished and forced to endure the influence of his uncle? It's endemic to the royal family, and it's an exploitable weakness that Sauron seemed to specialize in.

[avatarxprime]

Even if we keep in Sauron's corruption, the Fire Nation allying with anyone just seems unlikely. Ozai is bent on control, if he isn't in charge he isn't happy. Heck, hearing about Sauron as an Eye of Fire is likely going to motivate him to seek Sauron out simply to investigate what is possibly another Firebender of great power, someone who he needs to kill or control.

[The Vortex Empire]

I'd say that with the ships the Fire Navy uses, there's no doubt that they would rule the seas, assuming they retain their drydocks to build them. With a metal hull, steam power, and large catapults on board they outclass anything any Middle Earth navy has, as far as I know.

[NecronLord]

This does indeed belong in fantasy.

[Gurgeh]

This does indeed belong in fantasy.

I posted it here because I thought that the main sci fi forums was about vs debates of any kind though.

[Themightytom]

This does indeed belong in fantasy.

I posted it here because I thought that the main sci fi forums was about vs debates of any kind though.

Fail! It's Over Earth, Just Give Up!

No seriously, this is actually a pretty awesome topic, and I don't know how nobody came up with it earlier.

So, Question, does fire nation dragons exist in this crossover, I kind of wonder how they would fair against middle earth dragons.
Also, are the proto fire benders present? I beleive they existed within the firenations lands, but were not allied with the fire nation. They could become a maverick force.

[Vendetta]

I'd say that with the ships the Fire Navy uses, there's no doubt that they would rule the seas, assuming they retain their drydocks to build them. With a metal hull, steam power, and large catapults on board they outclass anything any Middle Earth navy has, as far as I know.

That's because Middle Earth is a large continent with few to no relevant inland seas, and the only place over the ocean worth sailing to is inaccessible due to spatial geometries that would make Cthulhu want to have a lie down in a darkened room.

Much in this scenario depends on how much Ozai can find out about the rings of power. If he could get one of the Three or the One, he'd be the kind of person who'd be able and willing to use it.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If they find out where it is, the Fire Nation could conceivably get all the way up the river Arnor to Osgiliath, and from there hit either Gondor or Mordor.

[Ahriman238]

Well, first things first. If they pop up within fifty miles of the Grey Haven, that means at most two hundred miles from the Shire. Whatever else happens or does not happen, the hobbits are probably screwed. And the newly-relocated Fire Nation is within fifty miles of the sea. As to the lore of Annater the Ring-giver and his treachery, it's not like it's any great secret.


Actually, an interesting thought occurs. The Fire Nation conquers the Shire and finds the Ring. The Ring finds it's way to Ozai. As Sauron had intended, the new Ring-Bearer becomes arrogant and drunk with power, conquering his way across the known world so he can one day march his armies to the Black Gate and challenge Sauron. Of course, Sauron figured any invading army could be crushed, and he would regain the Ring. With the Fire Nation supplying the army, they just might win.
What do you guys think?

[Sarevok]

The ring is essentiallyn a mind control device. As long as the FN has advanced warnings it should be a non factor.

[Themightytom]

The ring is essentiallyn a mind control device. As long as the FN has advanced warnings it should be a non factor.

Just like Frodo had?

[Sarevok]

The ring has a limited range. All you have to do to handle the ring safely is to treat it like a radioactive substance. The FN has sufficient steampunk technology that I can see them burying it without coming into physical contact.

[Simon_Jester]

I wouldn't be too sure. There are people who can handle it relatively safely, but not many, and certainly not powerful ones. If you know what it is, you might be more cautious... but then, you might also want to take its power for yourself, and disregard the warnings.

That's an important thematic element in Tolkein's depiction of the ring: knowing what it does doesn't necessarily stop it from corrupting you, once you have it within your grasp. Even people who aren't in contact with it (Boromir) can be drawn by its power.

[OmegaChief]

And even forwarned, forearmed people who have the best chance to resist the effects are shown to be pretty easilly corrupted in the end, heck Frodo failed his mission after all, the whole point is that in the end no one can really resist the rings power, no matter what they know or precautions they take.

[Sarevok]

Again. The rings power has very limited range. Even at a distance of a few feets the rings power drops dramatically. It required several days to affect Boromir even though he was in close proximity to Frodo. As long as nobody is touching the ring there should be no problems.

[Themightytom]

Again. The rings power has very limited range. Even at a distance of a few feets the rings power drops dramatically. It required several days to affect Boromir even though he was in close proximity to Frodo. As long as nobody is touching the ring there should be no problems.

Unless they are walking into this with a copy of LOTR, they aren't going to know to do that. Even Gandalf didn't come up with anything better than "Maybe keep it around your neck..." And that was after it hung out on Bilbos mantle for decades. Why is the firelord getting cheat codes here? Why wouldn't an emissary arrive and say "here you go, ring of invisibility, it's a gift, let's be enthra...ah I mean friends.."

The only scenario that comes to mind where Sauron wouldn't try to use the ring on a human king, would be DURING LOTR where the hobbits are running around with it. Given the chaos at work there, I feel like the Fire nation's appearance or discovery would be just another faction. Aragon might even go to them for help.

[Vendetta]

And even forwarned, forearmed people who have the best chance to resist the effects are shown to be pretty easilly corrupted in the end, heck Frodo failed his mission after all, the whole point is that in the end no one can really resist the rings power, no matter what they know or precautions they take.

However, Ozai isn't going to want to resist the Ring's power. Remember that Sauron's biggest fear is that someone else who was sufficiently strong willed would find the ring and be able to control it.

The question isn't "can Ozai resist the ring", it's "can Ozai master the ring".

Sauron can't just poll up and give him a shiny, because the only spare ones he has are three of the seven made for the dwarves, which aren't relevant to Ozai's interests (they are specialised for amassing hoards of shiny).

[Lord Zentei]

Again. The rings power has very limited range. Even at a distance of a few feets the rings power drops dramatically. It required several days to affect Boromir even though he was in close proximity to Frodo. As long as nobody is touching the ring there should be no problems.

The ring is semi-sapient and bided its time with Boromir until he was alone with Frodo, just as it willingly abandoned Gollum.

If Ozai gains the One Ring, he becomes the next Dark Lord. Sauron was genuinely concerned that one of the bigwigs among the free peoples would rise to replace him, so it's not impossible to usurp Sauron with the ring's power.

If Sauron is allowed some kind of access to corrupt him (whether by giving him some other ring or a Palantír), then Ozai gets corrupted. Past history vis-a-vis Annatar being known is irrelevant. Note that Saruman got corrupted through a Palantír even with no ring being given to him, and he knew as much about rings and Sauron's past history as anyone in Middle Earth, bar none. Moreover he was a powerful Maia, while at the end of the day, Ozai is only human.

If none of these are an issue, it's the Fire Nation armies vs. at least 200000+ orcs, trolls, Easterlings, Haradrim, etc. Number calcs needed for the Fire Nation, with force multipliers included.

[Zor]

Considering the scale of the Fire Navy in its assault on the North. Numbers should not be a problem.

Zor

[Sarevok]

I still don't understand why would Ozai want to put on a mindcontrol device.