Game of Thrones Season 2 discussion (spoilers)

[Vympel]

Thought it'd be a good idea to start a new thread.

Some of the latest casting news:-

Podrick Payne and Pyat Pree cast

Balon Greyjoy cast

There's a lot of speculation that the Tully family (particularly Edmure Tully, Lord Hoster Tully and the Blackfish) and basically all Riverrun will be cut from Season 2. This, to me, is a problem. Whilst its possible to bring them in Season 3, it doesn't seem like a lot of time, given how central Edmure at least to events of Book 3.

The Blackfish can probaly be cut completely though.

[Setzer]

I imagined Podrick as being a bit younger, but the age issue isn't going to ruin the role straightaway. If he's half as good at playing Tyrion's squire as Dinklage is at playing Tyrion, I'll never be able to imagine anyone else in the role.

[Vympel]

Everyone is older in the TV series anyway. I think it works better, personally. Everyone in the books is way too young to be believable to a TV audience (the concept of a 'teenager' and 'adolescence' is a modern one).

[RazorOutlaw]

Off the top of my head I can't remember Pod's age in the book, but that actor does look close to the age I envisioned him anyway.

Baseless rumor I heard from one of these "ASoIaF" websites leads me to ask: are they trying to combine book's 2 and 3 into a single season? Or all of book 2 and part of book 3?

[Vympel]

Part of Season 3 will be intergrated in Season 2, to give Jaime something to do this season. He was barely in Book 2. The climax of Season 2 will still be the Blackwater though.

[Setzer]

Well good. The pacing for the books just won't work for the show. They've done an OK job of modifying the books so far, so I have faith that they won't screw it up.

[Guardsman Bass]

It would be rather strange to bring Edmure Tully into the picture so late. Aside from his importance involving a Certain Event in A Storm of Swords, he's a major factor in Spoiler

why Robb is losing the war at the point when the Red Wedding happens. Robb's force struck into the Westerlands and smashed the host of Stefford Lannister, forcing Tywin to lead his army westward. The idea was that once Tywin's forces crossed the rivers forming the Trident, Edmure would lead a force out of Riverrun and catch him from behind while Robb struck from in front.

Except Robb didn't bother to tell Edmure this, so Edmure instead lead his host out to fight Tywin's army on the river, driving him back - and leaving Tywin free to withdraw to relieve King's Landing when Stannis attacks.

Bringing him in much later on would feel like "Oh Catelyn, here's your brother. Yes, you have a brother that we haven't mentioned up to this point, and here he is."

The Blackfish can probaly be cut completely though.

I agree. As awesome as the Blackfish is in the books, he's just a minor character who only pops up once in a while in a Catelyn chapter.

I'm also wondering what is going to happen to Jojen and Meera Reed, neither of whom have been cast yet. I suppose they could eliminate them and just have Osha fill their roles, but Spoiler

you would run into issues later on. You would have to have Rickon and Osha go with Bran and Hodor north to the Wall, with the latter to going with Coldhands and the other two running off. Except then you'd have to ask why they don't simply go to Castle Black to get help from Rickon's half-brother Jon Snow, and so forth.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

One thing to note is that HBO has dropped hints that they might agree to the desire of the producers to split Storm of Swords into two seasons. If that does happen, I imagine they'll have plenty of time to introduce the Tullys - SoS might be long, but I don't think it's twenty hours long. On the other hand, season two will only be ten hours long, so some things will have to be cut or moved to season three just by necessity, especially if they're going to be moving plot elements from SoS to season two for pacing and giving-lead-actors-actual-screen-time reasons.

[Bright]

Some minor expectations I have for the adaptation of the second book:

1. Either Aeron or Euron's name will be changed. If they felt the need to change "Asha," they'll regard those two as too similar as well.
2. The Kettleblack brothers will probably be conflated into one character. That seems like a sensible change to me; we don't really need three of them. Spoiler

3. Amory Lorch will probably be cut, with Vargo Hoat taking over his role of attacking Yoren's group. Lorch dies very quickly, so he'd be a very pointless name and face to remember, but Hoat has a bigger role throughout the series.

[Vympel]

But I want Lorch to get thrown into the bear pit.

And this thread is tagged for spoilers. Don't use spoiler tags. Anyone coming in here can expect to be spoiled. Its in the topic title.

Except Robb didn't bother to tell Edmure this, so Edmure instead lead his host out to fight Tywin's army on the river, driving him back - and leaving Tywin free to withdraw to relieve King's Landing when Stannis attacks.

That bothers the hell out of me. If I was Edmure I would've said "well why didn't you tell me that, jackhole?!"

[Thanas]

Everyone is older in the TV series anyway. I think it works better, personally. Everyone in the books is way too young to be believable to a TV audience (the concept of a 'teenager' and 'adolescence' is a modern one).

Medieval one, rather. At least the latter one.

[Vympel]

Really? I thought it was recognised as a stage in the early 1900s. Going from wikipedia, anyway.

[Thanas]

Really? I thought it was recognised as a stage in the early 1900s. Going from wikipedia, anyway.

No, even antiquity differentiated between the age groupings. There also was a progression for male pages alongside the steps of being iuventes or adolescents in the middle ages based on their age. 14 and 21 were the main differentiaters and you can see the impact of that even today in many laws regarding maturity, legal competence etc. The background being here that one was allowed to carry a sword after being 14.

EDIT: Of course, this only applied to males.

[Faqa]

It would be rather strange to bring Edmure Tully into the picture so late. Aside from his importance involving a Certain Event in A Storm of Swords, he's a major factor in why Robb is losing the war at the point when the Red Wedding happens. Robb's force struck into the Westerlands and smashed the host of Stefford Lannister, forcing Tywin to lead his army westward. The idea was that once Tywin's forces crossed the rivers forming the Trident, Edmure would lead a force out of Riverrun and catch him from behind while Robb struck from in front.

The show has already deviated from the events leading up to Robb's fall - Roose Bolton was supposed to be given command of half his army in GoT, which was what gave him the eventual power base to betray Robb. I'm not really sure how you can re-justify Robb doing that - he only did it because he was faced with no choice other than to draw Tywin off.

So, given that Robb's fall is already going to differ significantly from the books, they can also cut Edmure. It's really not an issue.

That bothers the hell out of me. If I was Edmure I would've said "well why didn't you tell me that, jackhole?!"

Because, on some level, he did do it for glory and out of stupidity. Remember, even Catelyn calls his actions retarded - so long as Tywin doesn't try to go after Riverrun, there is no point to Edmure fighting him. He did it for.... honor. And a not-insignificant inferiority complex, I'm guessing. So yeah, I'm guessing he feels guilty.

Not that that changes the fact that it was retarded of Robb to not give him fuller instructions.

My best guess for S2 is that we'll get the Renly sequences in ep 1 or 2, move more of Catelyn's POV there, so as to quickly get Brienne introduced while Robb rides off to Lannisport. They will contrive to have Jaime there for that sequence to play out, and the Jaime-Brienne plotline from SoS is set loose.I just wonder if the hand-loss will be this season or next.

What I'm really wondering about is the Arya plotline - it's plodding as FUCK, and will need to be ruthlessly slashed and altered for the series.

Personally, I think series-only fans will clamor for KL-plotlines - I have little doubt that Dinklage will be awesome in those, and EVERYBODY will want an intelligent POV there after Ned's retardation

[Vympel]

The show has already deviated from the events leading up to Robb's fall - Roose Bolton was supposed to be given command of half his army in GoT, which was what gave him the eventual power base to betray Robb. I'm not really sure how you can re-justify Robb doing that - he only did it because he was faced with no choice other than to draw Tywin off.

So, given that Robb's fall is already going to differ significantly from the books, they can also cut Edmure. It's really not an issue.

I don't think the lack of Roose Bolton in Season 1 is a big deal to how things go down. He's been cast for Season 2, all you need is to see Robb order him to take Harrenhall etc. That Roose commanded the army that Tywin defeated in AGoT really doesn't change much. In fact, its the sort of thing you can establish with dialog, i.e. "Lord Bolton commanded my diversionary force and kept losses to a minimum ..." or something

Because, on some level, he did do it for glory and out of stupidity. Remember, even Catelyn calls his actions retarded - so long as Tywin doesn't try to go after Riverrun, there is no point to Edmure fighting him. He did it for.... honor. And a not-insignificant inferiority complex, I'm guessing. So yeah, I'm guessing he feels guilty.

Not that that changes the fact that it was retarded of Robb to not give him fuller instructions.

My best guess for S2 is that we'll get the Renly sequences in ep 1 or 2, move more of Catelyn's POV there, so as to quickly get Brienne introduced while Robb rides off to Lannisport. They will contrive to have Jaime there for that sequence to play out, and the Jaime-Brienne plotline from SoS is set loose.I just wonder if the hand-loss will be this season or next.

What I'm really wondering about is the Arya plotline - it's plodding as FUCK, and will need to be ruthlessly slashed and altered for the series.

Personally, I think series-only fans will clamor for KL-plotlines - I have little doubt that Dinklage will be awesome in those, and EVERYBODY will want an intelligent POV there after Ned's retardation

Given that the first thing Tyrion does is clean house, especially WRT Janos Slynt and Grand Maester Pycelle, I'm sure series-only fans will be overjoyed.

Oh, and more Joffrey slaps!

[Guardsman Bass]

The show has already deviated from the events leading up to Robb's fall - Roose Bolton was supposed to be given command of half his army in GoT, which was what gave him the eventual power base to betray Robb. I'm not really sure how you can re-justify Robb doing that - he only did it because he was faced with no choice other than to draw Tywin off.

Then you also need to think of a new reason for Robb to strike so far west into Tywin's territory, leaving the Riverlands exposed like he did in the books. Otherwise he won't meet up with Jayne, have the fateful sex-and-morning-after-marriage, and head for disaster at the Twins.

I suppose you could have Robb striking west (drawing Tywin that way) in order to let his force on the other side of the river head south to KL, but then that part of the army could get hammered between KL and Tywin's force. He could also be trying to avoid getting hit from behind by Stefford's host, but then he's leaving the Riverlands even more exposed to Tywin's army (not to mention risking getting cut off from the North).

Because, on some level, he did do it for glory and out of stupidity. Remember, even Catelyn calls his actions retarded - so long as Tywin doesn't try to go after Riverrun, there is no point to Edmure fighting him. He did it for.... honor. And a not-insignificant inferiority complex, I'm guessing. So yeah, I'm guessing he feels guilty.

Those were partially his motives, but even the Blackfish and Catelyn thought that his strategy was sound in A Clash of Kings, IIRC. The only reason it wasn't sound was because of Robb's secret plan - the one that he never bothered to tell Edmure.

They will contrive to have Jaime there for that sequence to play out, and the Jaime-Brienne plotline from SoS is set loose.I just wonder if the hand-loss will be this season or next.

I think it will happen this season. It would be a great climax for the "Jaime" arc of the story this season.

Personally, I think series-only fans will clamor for KL-plotlines - I have little doubt that Dinklage will be awesome in those, and EVERYBODY will want an intelligent POV there after Ned's retardation

That's a big part of why I'm looking forward to this season. Tyrion is the "central" character in A Clash of Kings, in the way Ned was in A Game of Thrones (in that he has the most chapters in the book, and seems to "anchor" the story).

[Faqa]

I think it will happen this season. It would be a great climax for the "Jaime" arc of the story this season.

I'm torn on this. On the one hand, yes, it would be a great cliffhanger ending.

On the other hand, it would be an excellent catalyst to kick off a season, so it would work either way.

Then you also need to think of a new reason for Robb to strike so far west into Tywin's territory, leaving the Riverlands exposed like he did in the books. Otherwise he won't meet up with Jayne, have the fateful sex-and-morning-after-marriage, and head for disaster at the Twins.

Why? His reason is the same as the original reason - sitting around Harrenhall is just going to get his ass jumped by Lannister reinforcements, so he needs to come up with A Plan.

He could just leave Roose Bolton in charge when he leaves... but that would just be random, from the audience's point of view. Who is this guy? Where's the Greatjon dude? Why's he suddenly becoming Robb's right hand?

All of this made sense when Robb was splitting his forces for an attack which would presumably end in the armies being reunited. As the beginning of a campaign.... not so much.

[Meest]

I agree some things can be streamlined or merged together, Arya just needs to meet Jaqen and doesn't need to be going back and forth escaping with Gendry and friends. Daenerys can also be streamlined, especially going into book 3 it's the same old stuff for awhile. Though some of the smaller battles would make sense budget wise for TV I don't think much time should be spent on Theon and Greyjoys, rather more time shown on the stuff happening beyond the Wall. Davos can be given a smaller POV also and focus more from the King's Landing side and Tyrion POV it can be decent tension to have them in fear of a siege.

[Guardsman Bass]

I wonder if you could skip the entire Beric Dondarrion and Brotherhood-without-Banners plotline, and simply have Arya get grabbed by the Hound sometime after her escape from Harrenhal. You'd have to time it well, and probably have her hanging out in Harrenhal longer than she did in the book, but it might work. Not that I think that will happen, since they actually bothered to very briefly introduce Beric during the mission Ned Stark gave him in season one.

[Sriad]

I wonder if you could skip the entire Beric Dondarrion and Brotherhood-without-Banners plotline, and simply have Arya get grabbed by the Hound sometime after her escape from Harrenhal. You'd have to time it well, and probably have her hanging out in Harrenhal longer than she did in the book, but it might work. Not that I think that will happen, since they actually bothered to very briefly introduce Beric during the mission Ned Stark gave him in season one.

And the Hound's duel with Dondarrion is where he gets the wound that (maybe-sorta) kills him. Arya escaping from him without SOMETHING like that happening would be a pretty huge change.

[Bright]

Come to think of it, my number one worry for next season is that they'll make Renly Baratheon too likable. I can just picture them setting him up as the perfect guy for the throne, and make his death a major tragedy. That would be horrible. Renly is supposed to be big-headed, vain and egocentric.

And this thread is tagged for spoilers. Don't use spoiler tags. Anyone coming in here can expect to be spoiled. Its in the topic title.

Huh. The tag just completely failed from my eyes to my brain.

Because, on some level, he did do it for glory and out of stupidity. Remember, even Catelyn calls his actions retarded - so long as Tywin doesn't try to go after Riverrun, there is no point to Edmure fighting him. He did it for.... honor. And a not-insignificant inferiority complex, I'm guessing. So yeah, I'm guessing he feels guilty.

Edmure did want to prove himself, but it's not like he was just randomly dicking around. Hindering the enemy's movements and causing significant losses to them was a pretty good motive for his attack. His chief bannermen all thought the tactics were sound (as they were). Catelyn didn't think it was retarded either, she only bitched about it because she's negative as hell, and even recognized herself that there was no actual cause to worry.

I wonder if you could skip the entire Beric Dondarrion and Brotherhood-without-Banners plotline, and simply have Arya get grabbed by the Hound sometime after her escape from Harrenhal. You'd have to time it well, and probably have her hanging out in Harrenhal longer than she did in the book, but it might work. Not that I think that will happen, since they actually bothered to very briefly introduce Beric during the mission Ned Stark gave him in season one.

And the Hound's duel with Dondarrion is where he gets the wound that (maybe-sorta) kills him. Arya escaping from him without SOMETHING like that happening would be a pretty huge change.

No, the Hound was wounded fighting his brother's men at the Inn at the Crossroads.

Also, what possible reason would there be to cut out the BwB? And what exactly would Arya then do for possibly two entire seasons?

[Guardsman Bass]

I take it back. We can't skip the Beric Dondarrion plotline, because otherwise we don't have a way for Catelyn to get resurrected after the Twins.

[Setzer]

Plus, it establishes the nature of Rhllor's priests. Do they have genuine supernatural powers or is it the Dragons returning magic to the world? Plus, they had a Robin Hood vibe to them in book 2. By book 4, they came off more like hunted and desperate men, a nice touch to illustrate what war inflicts on those in it.

[Faqa]

I'm more wondering at the moment what the second season will do with Theon Greyjoy. While he's obviously going to have a fairly central plotline there that will be loyal to the book - else the first season spent a shitload of time building up his inferiority complex for no reason - I don't have a good solution for how to end his plotline. You can't drop actors for a year or two from a series. It's not done. And yet Theon's 'death' and reappearance as Reek almost requires a certain hiatus for the character. Not to mention that focusing on the Boltons before Roose's betrayal and subsequent actions might give the Red Wedding twist away.

Come to think of it, my number one worry for next season is that they'll make Renly Baratheon too likable. I can just picture them setting him up as the perfect guy for the throne, and make his death a major tragedy. That would be horrible. Renly is supposed to be big-headed, vain and egocentric.

Well, the series certainly hasn't built him up to be perfect. Self-righteous, yes, and has somewhat better morals than his brother, given their scene in the forest, but very weak-willed and prone to being led by the nose by his boyfriend. Not to mention tactless - the idiot mentioned his own suitability for the throne to NED, while the king was on his deathbed. And he hadn't exactly met Mr Honor yesterday either - if he thought he could move Ned with opportunism, he was either stupid or delusional. At least his book counterpart made it out to be a matter of pure survival for them.

[Nephtys]

But the problem was that in the book, Renly seemed to be charismatic and likable enough to draw his army, and win Highgarden. In the book, I thought he was the kind of politician sort of leader, who probably wouldn't be too great in office, but he'd GET the office so to speak. His meeting with Stannis highlights this the most, when he asks Stannis to stand down and even jokes with him, before moving off and feeling regretful about the entire thing. He's much more a pragmatist than Stannis, while Stannis is the 'lawful idealist'.

He's not the perfect guy for the throne. But he's probably the best of the lot.