Last survivor of Jutland set for scrap

[StarSword]

<snip explanation>

I didn't realize most museum ships were privately owned or part of the Park Service. Thanks for explaining that to me.

[CJvR]

[(Sadly the German Navy was so goddamned stupid, they never onceed tried to 'leapfrog' the British in ship performance. & actually understate their ships abilities.

Actually the Bayern class was an effort to do just that, unfortunately for the HSF it was one generation to late as the British had gone with 15" guns for the QE & R classes.

[Sea Skimmer]

That’s not really true. The ships design started out as one with four triple 12in turrets as a way of gaining weight economy and firepower while reducing barbette count. The German fleet rejected the designer’s proposals for triples, and so adapting a heavier caliber main battery was the only way to make four barbettes effective. News of heavier British guns only helped the argument. It did lead to a major increase in weight of broadside; but the Bayern was herself only about two thousand tons heavier then Konig. Just another incremental increase in size and cost.

Now the wartime L20 series designs, finally settling on L20 α, that was a little bit more like a leapfrogging attempt and would have given Germany the heaviest capital ship on the planet but even then, the Germans already knew the 40,000 ton Hood was being built and L20 α would not have been radically larger, though certainly far better armed and armored.

[ComradeClaus]

A shame the triple turrets weren't selected in lieu of the twin turrets used on the earlier ships, so classes like the Nassau & Helgoland wouln't exist, the officers responsible, [which I referred to as stupid (which I apologize for), were Tirpitz & Ingenohl] According to the capital ships articles (of the Kaiser's navy) on wikipedia, those 2 constantly argued against increasing caliber for ships main guns, even as the Royal Navy became stronger.
The wiki article for the Mackensen class states that Kaiser Bill wanted the class to have 38cm guns, Ingenohl argued for 30.5cm, finally compromising on 35cm. & in the Moltke Class article, it's stated that 12" guns were planned, but Tirpitz overruled & decided that they'd get 11.1" guns.

Isn't that evidence of bad decision making?

An example of the leapfroing issue is thus: In 1905, the HMS dreadnought was armed w/ 12" guns, followed a year later by the Battlecruiser HMS Invincible w/ 12" guns.

In 1907 the SMS Nassau Dreadnought carrying 11.1" guns was laid down, followed in 1908 by battlecruiser SMS Von der Tann. That's the 1st generation for each side; here's generation 2.

1909 saw the HMS Orion class superdreadnought & HMS Lion battlecruiser w/ 13.5" guns being Laid Down

While it took until 1912 for Derflinger to be laid down, carrying 12" guns. And until 1913, a full year after the HMS Queen Elizabeth was laid down, for SMS Baden to be laid down. While in 1915, the Royal Navy introduced the HMS Furious w/ 18" guns!

Basically, every time the Navy Design Office tried to provide the Kaiser w/ ships that could equal the Royal Navy's, Tirpitz & Ingenohl got in the way.

Is this wrong? If the articles are wrong, they should be corrected so others aren't mislead. Wikipedia is full of contradicting information after all, but then so are many books.

[HMS Sophia]

Oh aye, HMS Furious, which got built as a carrier and only would have had 1x18" gun anyway. Real good example.

Also do you realise that the German 12" guns were superior in penetrating power to the British 12", and very very close in capabilities to the 13.5".

Additionally, the British 12" fired much slower than the German 11.1", the shell weight on the German gun was only slightly lower and the muzzle velocity was higher. The German gun also had longer range.

What I am trying to point out is that simply comparing calibre's is very silly, as there are more details that you have completely ignored.

[Sea Skimmer]

A shame the triple turrets weren't selected in lieu of the twin turrets used on the earlier ships, so classes like the Nassau & Helgoland wouln't exist, the officers responsible, [which I referred to as stupid (which I apologize for), were Tirpitz & Ingenohl] According to the capital ships articles (of the Kaiser's navy) on wikipedia, those 2 constantly argued against increasing caliber for ships main guns, even as the Royal Navy became stronger.

Nobody used triple turrets when the Nassau & Helgoland classes were designed. Some good reasons also existed not to use the earlier designs ones too; but I’m sure you have no idea what those are.

The wiki article for the Mackensen class states that Kaiser Bill wanted the class to have 38cm guns, Ingenohl argued for 30.5cm, finally compromising on 35cm. & in the Moltke Class article, it's stated that 12" guns were planned, but Tirpitz overruled & decided that they'd get 11.1" guns.

Isn't that evidence of bad decision making?

It’s certainly evidence that you are bullshitting us about writing history books. You know, reasons existed behind decisions like this. You ever compare the armor on British and German ships?

An example of the leapfroing issue is thus: In 1905, the HMS dreadnought was armed w/ 12" guns, followed a year later by the Battlecruiser HMS Invincible w/ 12" guns.

In 1907 the SMS Nassau Dreadnought carrying 11.1" guns was laid down, followed in 1908 by battlecruiser SMS Von der Tann. That's the 1st generation for each side; here's generation 2.

1909 saw the HMS Orion class superdreadnought & HMS Lion battlecruiser w/ 13.5" guns being Laid Down

No actually that doesn’t support your nonsense about the Germans ‘missing’ an opportunity it all, it points precisely to the problem of how fucking expensive it would have been to go and build a ship superior to those of an enemy who already choose a larger and much more expensive main gun caliber. Of course the British wanted heavier guns to fire larger explosive charges with HE and CPC shells, a dubious means of attacking armored ships, while the Germans concentrated on developing proper APC ammunition which was in fact totally adequate at projected prewar battle ranges, and had far superior ammunition until 1917 when the RN introduced a new pattern of ammunition in reaction to Jutland, but none of that ever entered your thinking did it? Amazing that something other then counting inches of gun might be a factor right? Bayern

Do you have any clue how much these ships, or heavy guns, or heavy caliber ammunition cost, at all? Or the cost of expanding the Kaiser Wilhelm Canal to take dreadnoughts (near the pricetag of an entire dreadnought class!), or building the entirely new naval base at Wilhelmshaven to accommodate the same sort of ship? From Deutschland to Bayern costs more then doubled, and yet the German naval laws called for the strength of the battlefleet to roughly quadruple. That’s… extreamly costly to the say the least and Tripitz already had to fight tooth and nail to get it funded. That’s what he’s remembered for the most, and he could only do it because the Kaiser liked battleships so much.

While it took until 1912 for Derflinger to be laid down, carrying 12" guns. And until 1913, a full year after the HMS Queen Elizabeth was laid down, for SMS Baden to be laid down. While in 1915, the Royal Navy introduced the HMS Furious w/ 18" guns!

Yes Furious, a completely worthless joke of a ship, clearly an example Germany should have emulated. In fact the Germans kept down gun caliber because they figured an 11-12in gun was just fine at 8000 yards and that firing at much long ranges was impossible without director control, which did not become common until right around the start of the war.. funny enough the exact same time German gun calibers made major steps upward. The British meanwhile were happy to oblige with incredibly dumb armoring practices all the way until HMS Hood, which despite her poor WW2 reputation was in fact very well protected for WW1 once redesigned after Jutland. She had the main belt actually cover her magazines... not true of any other dreadnought designed for the RN from Orion through the R class.

Basically, every time the Navy Design Office tried to provide the Kaiser w/ ships that could equal the Royal Navy's, Tirpitz & Ingenohl got in the way.

Yeah sure, clearly the top designers of the German fleet were much stupider then the top folks of a navy that thought a ship with two 18in guns and three inch thick armor made sense. Or could it be that Tripitz was as much a politician as a naval officer, as any chief of a military service branch must be when dealing with a legislature? He knew he could only get so much money a year for warships and fought hard for what he did get, he knew the RN had started larger and was building faster. He wanted numbers, not a very expensive superships that would be completely overwhelmed. I nfact the history before 1912 is one of Tirpitz picking away at the Naval Law to get it progressive amended until he could get his desired goal of three ships per year laid down. Any major increase in cost would have made this impossible and led to a large deficit in the size of the planned fleet.

In fact none of it mattered one bit anyway, because the RN started with a vast superiority in battleships, and it was not going to loose it quickly when it had no need to spend large amounts of money on an army or fortifications, while for German that was and proved to be a matter of life and death. Building the High Seas Fleet was one of the biggest strategic blunders in modern history, and German was lucky as it was that it had people fighting to keep it from being even more expensive while dozens of German army divisions lacked a full complement of artillery and machine guns.

Is this wrong? If the articles are wrong, they should be corrected so others aren't mislead. Wikipedia is full of contradicting information after all, but then so are many books.

It is far too simplistic to be meaningful. I might edit wikipedia if it wasn’t controlled by complete idiots who will endlessly sabotage efforts. But it is, so I sure wont waste time on this. At least when I make a decent post on SDN nobody can fuck with it.

[Thanas]

Claus, I do not appreciate you continuing posting here in light of the PM I sent to you and which you have not answered yet.

Continue doing this and I will haul you in for a ban panel in the mod forum.

[CJvR]

The ships design started out as one with four triple 12in turrets as a way of gaining weight economy and firepower while reducing barbette count. The German fleet rejected the designer’s proposals for triples, and so adapting a heavier caliber main battery was the only way to make four barbettes effective. News of heavier British guns only helped the argument. It did lead to a major increase in weight of broadside; but the Bayern was herself only about two thousand tons heavier then Konig. Just another incremental increase in size and cost.

Sure about that? I have never heard of a 4x3 30,5 arrangement being considered for the Bayern (6x2 30,5 was rejected). There were plans for 5x2 35 and 4x2 40 but that was cut down to 4x2 38 for marginal budgetary savings.

[Sea Skimmer]

Sure about that? I have never heard of a 4x3 30,5 arrangement being considered for the Bayern (6x2 30,5 was rejected). There were plans for 5x2 35 and 4x2 40 but that was cut down to 4x2 38 for marginal budgetary savings.

Pretty sure I have a line drawing of it stashed away somewhere actually, but I also have like 200 others so maybe I am imagining it; the Germans tended to study a very wide range of options for each new class of dreadnought. The Imperial Fleet was pretty idiotically run in any case so god only knows what they really forced the designers to do. Engineering officers on shore and land duty were very formally treated as inferiors. The wife of an engineering officer wasn’t even called a lady, she was addressed as women. This is of course a big snub for the prewar period.

[Thanas]

Engineering officers on shore and land duty were very formally treated as inferiors. The wife of an engineering officer wasn’t even called a lady, she was addressed as women. This is of course a big snub for the prewar period.

Sorry, but this does not make sense. "Frau" (Woman) is the usual address in German for any female person, especially married ones. "Lady" is a honorific reserved directly for persons of noble heritage. So unless she herself was a noble (doubtful, considering engineering was dominated by non-nobles) she would not be addressed as lady, nor would expect to be addressed as such and depending where she grew up (like in one of the hanseatic cities) would even be offended to be addressed as a lady.

Is this from one of Massie's godawful books?

[Sea Skimmer]

I’ve never read any of his books and my understand was that any Imperial German Executive Officer of significant rank was simply granted a title of nobility and then acted like he'd had it all along. I read the above bit bit in someone else’s book online via google a few weeks ago, maybe they cited one of those books, but I’m about to pack up and move and wont have home internet access for a couple weeks, but I may have a chance to track it down before then. I need to remember what the heck I searched for to find it. Anyway if I do think it up, Ill post it from school.

In any case, plenty of other examples exist of how screwed up and unreformed the German naval officer system was, and how incredibly dumb Tirpitz was about it. The Army of course, was even more filled with inbred nobility but at least had the advantage that as soon as the war began they died like flies and got replaced by commissioning NCOs. IIRC something like half the German Army officer corps as it stood in 1914 would die in the war.

[Thanas]

I’ve never read any of his books and my understand was that any Imperial German Executive Officer of significant rank was simply granted a title of nobility and then acted like he'd had it all along.

No, not at all. In fact, it was incredibly uncommon for anybody below the rank of General or Admiral to even get offered a noble patent and even then it was not a given. See for example Hipper - despite being one of the best and most capable German Admirals he only received a noble patent after Jutland, and then only the lowest form of nobility as well. It was not a given for even war heroes to be offered patents even when their oders and medals would give the opportunity to do so - see for example Immelmann or Rommel.

Meanwhile, even if people were offered patents, many refused, the most prominent example being Scheer himself. This was especially prevalent in the Navy, which was partly recruited from coastal towns, of which many still adhered (and still do so today) to the Hanseatic principle, which holds that all free citizens of those cities are equals and therefore prohibit the acceptance of any military orders or patents of nobility.

The granting of noble titles was not automatic and depended more on the monarch's favor and ones own principles and traditions. Germany was still very fragmented especially on the latter in these days and thus no such "automatic promotion to nobility after a second rank" existed in any portion of the Armed Forces. The only nation which had such a system was Britain iirc.

In any case, plenty of other examples exist of how screwed up and unreformed the German naval officer system was, and how incredibly dumb Tirpitz was about it.

These examples would interest me as well.

[Sea Skimmer]

These examples would interest me as well.

Issues that come to mind in this, my last post from my current and soon to be former residence; he refused to allow expansion of cadet training from two years to four years as the USN and RN had done much earlier, refused to allow cadet selection to be based on skill tests as opposed to well connected persons being able to afford it, which as a related factor he insisted that the cadets must pay for the schooling. He also had the brilliant idea that the solution to conscripts in the navy was to keep them all together for the full three year period, meaning that at any given time 1/3rd of the fleet would have completely inexperienced poorly trained crews and 1/3rd would be very good. That last idea was scuttled by strong resistance from other more intelligence admirals. To make matters worse Tirpitz was essentially against NCOs, which were certainly not as important at the time as they are today, but many other fleets already saw the value of career enlisted men.

Tirpitz rejected fleet maneuvers that could have better trained officers and men as too expensive, and unimportant because his fleet was simply not to fight until it was ready, around 1920. The High Seas Fleet had just one large scale maneuver prior to the outbreak of WW1, had it been required to fight any time early in the war that could have been very serious. Instead a vast amount of coal had to be burned during 1914 and 1915 with one battle squadron at a time training at sea, and then going to the Baltic for gunnery training, and then coming back. This also ensured that the fleet simply could not have offered battle at full strength without significant advanced notice. The training did pay off at Jutland in the end, but this was also certainly a factor in why the German fleet was so timid early in the war when the numerical odds were more in its favor then they would be later.

Furthing his dislike of anything but line officers, Tirpitz usually ignored his own naval staff and actually objected to the concept of having a designated fleet commander, in favor of the Kaiser having direct control, which in effect placed Tirpitz in command as the top naval adviser. That lasted all the way until the outbreak of war.

In general Tirpitz was also simply against anything which was not spending money on new battleships. This is one of the reasons why German often lived on land; it was cheaper then making ships with good habitability on restricted size. It’s also why the British had proportionally much higher ratios of supporting cruisers and destroyers, even with the demands of a world empire to draw away that kind of asset from the Grand Fleet. The only other priority was big cruisers, on and off, for showing the flag overseas and maintaining a station in Asia, though Tirpitz actually really wanted battleships for that role too.

Anyway none of this is meant to say that Tirpitz was necessarily a ridged person, he was in fact quite willing to change his plans and get whatever he could, but it always circled back to building lots and lots of battleships to carry out long term plans of German world domination.

Tirptiz was primarily a politician, and while his naval laws succeeded in locking in the desired numbers of battleships, they also meant he was compelled to keep costs in check with the sums budgeted in multi year laws, or else the Reichstag might abolish the whole naval law concept. Since military projects back then had plenty of cost estimation problems just like today, the prices of the battleship would go over budget and then he’d just cancel whatever was required to keep building them. That was often training and accommodations for personal. This tended to further exaggerate the elitism of the officer corps within its own rank when stuff like officers mess food (officers pay for food just about everywhere) had its subsidies suddenly cut off. Didn't help with officer and men relations either. Its not at all surprising that the it was ultimately the navy and marine corps that rebelled rather then the army which had taken such massively heavier losses to the point of driving men to insanity on a regular basis.

[Thanas]

Don't forget the traditionally socialist presence in the Navy and the U-boat war, which tended to draw away the most talented men from the surface fleet eventually.

At the rest, that sounds more like budget constraints than anything else. The Brits had heavy mutinies as well.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not aware of any British naval mutinies during the late Victorian or Edwardian period, up through World War One. I know there were a number of such mutinies after the war ended, but I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about.

[Thanas]

I'm not aware of any British naval mutinies during the late Victorian or Edwardian period, up through World War One. I know there were a number of such mutinies after the war ended, but I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about.

The latter.

And the fleet had extremely bad morale at Scapa during the war as well.

[Swindle1984]

Warspite was not a very realistic candidate for preservation; the ship had extensive structural damage that was never repaired. HMS Caroline is in any case almost certainly already doomed; the timeframe for disposal is just too short to organize anything. The only hope is someone who already has money simply appearing. Failing that I hope someone at least buys thirty tons of the scrap and sells it in small pieces to collectors. It’s fucking mad to just destroy this ship at a time when just THREE Great War veterans are left in the world but hey, it is an RN tradition. The way things are going tradition and two CV hulls are all they are going to have left soon.

Just three British WWI veterans, or total worldwide? If the latter, you're wrong; there are at least six ships surviving to have fought in both World Wars. I know the USS Texas is one, and Caroline is another, but don't know what the other four are.

Officially, the USS Texas is the flagship of the fleet of Texas. Texas is one of the few states that still maintains its own militia separate from the National Guard, and it has its own "fleet" (basically, just patrol boats to intercept drug smugglers from Mexico and to rescue capsized fishing boats). The Texas is NOT in seaworthy condition and is still in her WWII configuration (for a long while, she was sinking but we raised the money to fix that), but we do still maintain a small stock of 14" shells for her guns. Of course, I'm not sure why we keep shells for her guns when the guns likely are inoperable in the first place...

[StarSword]

Just three British WWI veterans, or total worldwide? If the latter, you're wrong; there are at least six ships surviving to have fought in both World Wars. I know the USS Texas is one, and Caroline is another, but don't know what the other four are.

Um, he meant human veterans, Swindle. And that would be the worldwide total. The last British WWI vet died last year.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Speaking of the original topic of this thread:

HMS Caroline is actually going to be preserved, she's under the same organisation that controls the other major core collection warships of the Royal Navy, and it seems there's a good chance she'll be permanently preserved in either Portsmouth or Belfast.

An historic naval vessel that got a second life after combat duties as a base to train hundreds of part-time sailors is under threat.

Alliance Councillor Seán Neeson has called for action to be taken ensure that HMS Caroline remains in Belfast.

The ship has been lying idle since 2009, when the Royal Navy decided it would decommission it.

Mr Neeson has represented Northern Ireland on the UK National Historic Ships Committee as well as being a member of the Nomadic Charitable Trust and commented today: "HMS Caroline was decommissioned at the end of March and there is a great deal of uncertainty about her future.

"She is a major historic ship and is the last remaining survivor from the battle of Jutland. She has played a major role in the maritime heritage not only of Belfast but the whole of Northern Ireland," he said.

"HMS Caroline is a member of the core collection of national historic ships along with the Nomadic and the Result.

"Unless people in Northern Ireland make a major effort to keep Caroline in Belfast I believe that she could be moved somewhere else in the UK, and that would be a tragic loss as regards our maritime heritage and tourism industry," he said.


Earlier this year, Ulster Unionist Mark Finlay, also expressed his hopes that HMS Caroline, the naval ship and later Royal Naval Reserve training vessel over nearly a century of service, can be kept in Belfast.

"Caroline has had 96 years of faithful service and, since 1924, served as the headquarters of the Ulster Division of the Royal Naval Reserve and its training facility. It is the last surviving ship from the 1916 Battle of Jutland and the last physical embodiment of the bravery of the sailors who participated and I note with sadness that it is decommissioned now.

"I hope that a mechanism can be found to keep Caroline in Belfast," he concluded, in April.

In 1972 HMS Caroline's reservists received the Freedom of the City of Belfast and, with their RN compatriots, they also received the freedom of the Borough of Newtownabbey.

The connection to Northern Ireland is long and distinguished, dating back to the formation of the Ulster Division of the RNR in 1924.

For 85 years the training unit was based on HMS Caroline, a light cruiser built in 1914, a vessel that saw action at the Battle of Jutland in 1916 and served in the Far East before coming to Northern Ireland where she is still docked in the Titanic Quarter in Belfast.

The Royal Naval Reserve unit that operated from the permanently docked vessel at The Titanic Quarter has since moved to the Lisburn Army Barracks where it was reincarnated as the shore base, HMS Hibernia.

Located within Thiepval Barracks, HMS Hibernia is home to around 100 reservists.

It is the Royal Naval Reserve's newest unit, following the decommissioning of HMS Caroline in Belfast in December 2009.