Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Starglider »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:And second, selective breeding only allows you to select among traits; not add ones that don't exist. Genetic engineering lets you add things to a species that simply aren't there for selective breeding to work on.
Genetic engineering works at the cell chemistry level. Altering cells to produce a specific chemical is relatively straightforward. Gross morphological changes are very difficult; you are trying to modify an incredibly complex cascade of cell division, differentiation, gene expression/repression and intercellular signalling. Behavioural changes are even harder, because at least we have a relatively good understanding of physiology and fairly it's obvious whether you've suceeded or failed, wheras brain development and how genes code for behavior are still not well understood. Both natural evolution and selective breeding work by iterative modification and testing of the whole organism. To achieve the same results by genetic engineering you would need an accurate virtual model of the organism with sufficient accuracy to replace this with simulation; we are a long way from having this for any organism.

Robotic pets are cheaper (to design and to keep), easier (ditto), much safer and free of moral issues.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Starglider wrote:Robotic pets are cheaper (to design and to keep), easier (ditto), much safer and free of moral issues.
They aren't alive - and people care about that - and are a long way from being as sophisticated as animals.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Broomstick »

Then again, Starglider would rather be uploaded into a robotic shell himself, so at least there's some consistency there.

As for myself - a robot "pet" isn't a pet at all. It's a gimmicky toy. And I don't have any moral issues with keeping dogs, cats, etc. as pets.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Zixinus »

Zixinus I apologize in advance if I am missing any sarcasm or anything else.
I was not being ironic at all (I'm not a fan of being ambiguous), though I admit that I didn't quite think trough some of the stuff I've written.

There are USDA requirements on human interaction with wild animals for the health and safety of animals. Assuming those minimum requirements are met you have the problem that it's not good form to encourage exotic animals as pets, and that its not good form to teach that wild animals should be pets.
I was not aware of these USDA requirements.

In my imaginary all-animals-pettable zoo, the purpose wouldn't be to make them pets, but to allow children (and even adults) to interact with the animal without fear of the animal harming the humans. Granted, that won't stop the problem happening the other way around (humans harming the animal).

Perhaps only under supervision, these genetically-tamed animals could interact with humans? That way, harm could be prevented.

It would make zoos incredibly more interesting at any rate. People like to do more than just watch animals and read stuff on plaques. Feeding an animal by hand is a neat experience, never mind doing things like petting it or even playing with it.

1 - For professional reasons I cannot disclose all of the details of this situation, but I know of someone who raised a Binturong (from the civet family, also known as a bearcat) by hand while the animal was an infant and the grown Binturong was still aggressive enough that she is rarely handled today. You can't just remove the instincts of some animals, especially carnivores.
A dog too is a carnivore and there are many cases of dogs becoming aggressive, dominating and even dangerous. Usually, the problem is with the owners and rarely with the animals.

How do you prevent these TameGene(tm) animals be in a similar situation?

Of course, I'm assuming that this genetic treatment/trait mentioned in the OP is good and works almost magically. The level of tameness would be that of a normally tame animal: ie, unless they are treated well, they will not attack humans unless extreme circumstances.
What would be the point of taming these wild animals not suited for domestication when we have domestic dogs and cats that we have lived along with naturally for thousands of years?
What is the point of having cats and dogs? Because they form relationships with their owner.
There are other animals than cats and dogs that people keep. Guina pigs, rabbits (I own one, although I do not reccomend it in a flat), squirrals, etc.
I am not saying that every possible wild animal should be tamed with TameGene(tm) but generally animals that could live well in a human home.

Owls and Snakes already do that naturally, preserve their habitat and they will do just that and no training is required.
Yes, but I am assuming that with TameGene(tm) you could also control these animals far more, allowing concentrating the area and the animals themselves.

What I believe would be helpful with such animals on farms:
- the animals would not endanger the humans. If this is a more dangerous animal, such as a bird of prey that could peck out someone's eye or a (mildly or medicorely) poisonous snake, this would be definitely beneficial.
- the animals could be trained to allow to live more densely in the area than in the wild.
- the animals could be taught or be simply restricted (depending on the animal) to the farm's area, thus making their vermin-hunting activity more concentrated and beneficial.
- the animals could be safely taken to the vet. This allows taking animals outside of their native habitat (and if you have numerous number of them, preventing these animals from overbreeding the area and taxing the local ecosystem). This would also prevent plauqes or other pathogens (or parasites) to be spread on the farm or into the local ecosystem.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Starglider »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:and are a long way from being as sophisticated as animals.
Sure, but my point was that we're at least as far away from being to replace thousands of years of breeding (for domestication) with a few years in a lab. By the time we can do the later, robotic pets should be pretty convincing.
Broomstick wrote:As for myself - a robot "pet" isn't a pet at all. It's a gimmicky toy.
I would prefer real dogs to robot dogs myself, but I also think it would be fun to have a robot tiger, and vastly more sensible, practical and ethical than owning a real tiger even if you genetically modified it to have a compulsion not to harm humans.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by tjomi »

To reply to the OP i must inform that there are some errors with the question.
Genetic engineering of new and exotic animals isn't going to start happening in the futur, because we are already doing it now.

First of i must agree with the poster here that handraising a wild animal from birth does not make it tame, it just makes a wild animal tha likes you enought to not want to eat you... yet.
And furthermore i think it is egotistical and morally wrong to keep wild animals as private pets for several reasons, especially big predators (lions tigers etc...)

But on the subject og Genetic engineering of pets.
there are several examples of this already.
I saw one poster mention but not elaborated upon the russian silver foxes.
unlike other "Tame" foxes, they are actually domesticated just like dogs.
I assume that the people here know the difference between a domesticated animal and a wild one that has been rasied by humans from birth
Iit's quite a facinating experiment conducted by the russians, and you can read more about it here :http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/807641/posts
or you can look at this video and go ahhhh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGM2TxfM ... re=related

And you have the Savannah cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_(cat)
Which is a hybrid between a Serval and a domestic cat.
They basically bred a big "wild cat" with a normal size domestic cat to get a big "domestic" cat, that acts like a dog....... :?:
but i am not quite sure if this counts as a domestic animal (i am not quite sure cats counts as a domestic animal :wink: )

these are two examples of genetic engineering, albeit without using a lab.
The foxes are examples of selective breeding to get a desired temperament, and the cats are an example of crossbreeding to get a desired physical trait.
And i am pretty sure that these two methods can be combined.

And on the question of pet rhino, pet tiger or a pet cheetah.
I am 100% convinced that they will come in the future, probably not that far into the future either.
What methods they use to create these pets i am not sure, but even using laboratories and modifying the dna is something i think will be a real possibility.
I belive that alone on the fact that there is a market for it.
It is incredible how much money people use on pets, and to get "unusual" pets.
Hell, Paris hilton got tired of her dogs and bought a monkey.
Can you imagine what she would give to be able to walk down the red carpet with a tiger or a cheeta?
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by tjomi »

I have discovered that i have some errors in my first post.
Namely that Cross breeding and selective breeding is not Genetic engineering.
So i have to retract the statement that Genetic engineering is already beeing done.

but id like to point out the lengths people go to get a pet, be it either for personal interest or too show of how much money they got.
A good example is the silver fox and savannah cat.
So i still maintain that in the not too distant future there will be some endeavors to try and use genetic manipulation to get a tiger or rhino that can be sold as a pet to the mass market.

i would have made this correction in my first post, but i cant find the edit button...
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

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tjomi wrote:i am not quite sure cats counts as a domestic animal
Yes, Felis catus is a domestic animal, just as much as dogs, cows, horses, and sheep.

The go feral easily, but that's because human valued a lot of the traits of feral cats – we never bred out their hunting instincts because we like having them as vermin catchers.
What methods they use to create these pets i am not sure, but even using laboratories and modifying the dna is something i think will be a real possibility.
I belive that alone on the fact that there is a market for it.
It's already being done – you can buy glow-in-the-dark fish. Specifically, genetically engineered zebrafish (Danio rerio), available in red, green, orange, and blue. They're marketed as “GloFish”. They've had a gene from a jellyfish inserted into their chromosomes to allow bioluminescence.
Hell, Paris hilton got tired of her dogs and bought a monkey.
Can't wait until the little monster gets pissy and tries to eat her face off.
tjomi wrote:I have discovered that i have some errors in my first post.
Namely that Cross breeding and selective breeding is not Genetic engineering.
Why wouldn't they be genetic engineering? Who said it had to involve a laboratory, or don't you think gene modification via selection breeding alters the genome? It turns wolves into dogs and foxes in into...well, doggy foxes. And teosinte into maize.
So i have to retract the statement that Genetic engineering is already beeing done.
No you don't – see “GloFish”.
i would have made this correction in my first post, but i cant find the edit button...
Editing privileges don't exist in all forums on this site, and as a redshirt you may have additional limitations. So please use preview.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by StarSword »

Broomstick wrote:
tjomi wrote:i am not quite sure cats counts as a domestic animal
Yes, Felis catus is a domestic animal, just as much as dogs, cows, horses, and sheep.

The go feral easily, but that's because human valued a lot of the traits of feral cats – we never bred out their hunting instincts because we like having them as vermin catchers.
I'm fairly sure he was being snide there. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "Dogs have owners; cats have staff."
i would have made this correction in my first post, but i cant find the edit button...
Editing privileges don't exist in all forums on this site, and as a redshirt you may have additional limitations. So please use preview.
To be more specific, in almost every forum except Off-Topic and Testing, once you get past about 20 posts, you get about five minutes to edit before your post is locked in. (Leastways I think that's how it works.)
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by tjomi »

Broomstick wrote:
tjomi wrote:I have discovered that i have some errors in my first post.
Namely that Cross breeding and selective breeding is not Genetic engineering.
Why wouldn't they be genetic engineering? Who said it had to involve a laboratory, or don't you think gene modification via selection breeding alters the genome? It turns wolves into dogs and foxes in into...well, doggy foxes. And teosinte into maize.
According to the Wikipedia article on Genetic Engineering
Wikipedia wrote:is the direct human manipulation of an organism's genome using modern DNA technology. It involves the introduction of foreign DNA or synthetic genes into the organism of interest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_engineering
So that leaves out any sort of breeding methods.

So i have to retract the statement that Genetic engineering is already beeing done.
No you don't – see “GloFish”.
Thanks for the tip, i was not aware of them


StarSword wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
tjomi wrote: i am not quite sure cats counts as a domestic animal
Yes, Felis catus is a domestic animal, just as much as dogs, cows, horses, and sheep.
The go feral easily, but that's because human valued a lot of the traits of feral cats – we never bred out their hunting instincts because we like having them as vermin catchers.
I'm fairly sure he was being snide there. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "Dogs have owners; cats have staff."
Yes.
yes i was :lol:

Btw: thanks to both of you for the tip on editing
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Broomstick »

tjomi wrote:According to the Wikipedia article on Genetic Engineering
Wikipedia wrote:is the direct human manipulation of an organism's genome using modern DNA technology. It involves the introduction of foreign DNA or synthetic genes into the organism of interest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_engineering
So that leaves out any sort of breeding methods.
Wikipedia is not the ultimate source of definitions - while the quoted one is definitely a definition of genetic engineering, and a common one, I would argue it's not the only one.

In the past, there have also been experiments with chemicals and radiation to deliberately induce mutation, usually in insects (such as fruit flies, for research) and in plants. These do cause genetic modification, even if not via direct gene manipulation.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

now all we have to do is create a mini-thulu...
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Batman »

Do we really need gengineered pets? The ones commonly available seem to cause enough trouble as it is. Nevermind dog poop on sidewalks or cats deciding their humans should finally learn how to catch mice and bring live ones into the house for them to practice with, dogs (and not necessarily particularly big dogs) are dangerous enough and they're domesticated. Cats have merely learned that we're way bigger than them and know how to open the fridge and operate the can opener. Dogs feel bad because they've disappointed their master. Cats sulk because they got caught. And you want Rottweiler-sized cats as household pets?

If there were such a thing as a 'tame' gene, how come throughout 1000s of years of selective breeding with various species, we haven't managed to isolate it? Dogs, which are arguably the species Mankind has tempered with the most, still rely mainly on upbringing for behaviour.
Bring up a St Bernhard as a fighting machine-you got 250 lbs of menace on your hands. Raise a Dobermann as a nanny-you still do, the moment somebody seems to threaten the kids. Until then, he's an oversized plush toy (only more drooly).
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by madd0ct0r »

No, there are clear markers of a domesticated speices - the same traits seem to drop up in cattle, dogs, cats, horses, sheep ect

over generations, the head becomes smaller, the jaw normally smaller (sometimes causing tooth crowding). Body mass and muscle mass generally decrease (unless being bred for, like beef cattle). Aggressiveness is selected against (unless bred for).

similar movement (certainly of bone structure) seems to have been observed in humans too - we're domesticating ourselves.

off to find some sources. toodles.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by StarSword »

@madd0ct0r: They did an article on it in National Geographic not too long ago.

"Taming the Wild" by Evan Ratliff

One trait I remember from the article is piebald coats.
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Broomstick »

In that case, since we are supposedly domesticating ourselves, why aren't piebald humans at least as common a variation as, say, redheads? :D
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Re: Genetic Engineering Leads to New Domesticated Animals

Post by Chirios »

So in short, this is a resounding NO.
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