Game of Thrones Season 2 discussion (spoilers)

[TC Pilot]

Well, the series certainly hasn't built him up to be perfect. Self-righteous, yes, and has somewhat better morals than his brother, given their scene in the forest, but very weak-willed and prone to being led by the nose by his boyfriend. Not to mention tactless - the idiot mentioned his own suitability for the throne to NED, while the king was on his deathbed. And he hadn't exactly met Mr Honor yesterday either - if he thought he could move Ned with opportunism, he was either stupid or delusional. At least his book counterpart made it out to be a matter of pure survival for them.

To be fair, no one really seemed to understand just how stubbornly Ned would hold to his "honorable" path. He quarreled endlessly with Robert, Cersei tried to seduce him, and even Varys didn't seem to figure Ned out until he'd already been thrown in the dungeons. Hell, how many people on this forum have come out saying how bone-headedly stupid Ned was?

But the problem was that in the book, Renly seemed to be charismatic and likable enough to draw his army, and win Highgarden. In the book, I thought he was the kind of politician sort of leader, who probably wouldn't be too great in office, but he'd GET the office so to speak. His meeting with Stannis highlights this the most, when he asks Stannis to stand down and even jokes with him, before moving off and feeling regretful about the entire thing. He's much more a pragmatist than Stannis, while Stannis is the 'lawful idealist'.

Renly won Highgarden because he's sleeping with Loras, and the rest of his army consisted of his vassals as lord of Storm's End (most of them immediately switched over to Stannis), but you're right to point out his charisma. I believe it was Stannis who mentions that he was loved the same way Robert was. Added to the fact he supposedly looks identical to Robert when he was younger, I saw Renly as basically being the guy Robert would have been if he had married Lyanna.

But yeah, given a choice between Renly and Joffrey, you don't even have to think about that one.

[Setzer]

I think Renly would have been the same spendthrift Robert was. It would have been the status quo except the Tyrells replaced the Lannisters.

[Vympel]

Robert wasn't a bad king because he was a spendthrift - he was a bad king because he was a drunken oaf. If Renly was a spendthrift, well, it could have been worse.

In any event, I'm pro-Stannis. He's an unbending asshole, but dammit if I don't love his resilience. I want to see him on the Iron Throne, more than anyone else (and yes, that includes Dany). Too bad he's so unlikeable, unlike Robert or Renly

[Faqa]

It's more than that - he's the only competitor who is determined to do the right thing.

[Setzer]

Robert wasn't a bad king because he was a spendthrift - he was a bad king because he was a drunken oaf. If Renly was a spendthrift, well, it could have been worse.

In any event, I'm pro-Stannis. He's an unbending asshole, but dammit if I don't love his resilience. I want to see him on the Iron Throne, more than anyone else (and yes, that includes Dany). Too bad he's so unlikeable, unlike Robert or Renly

Two sides of the same coin really. Robert had no interest in actually running the kingdom. Renly at least bothered to show up at Small Council meetings more often, but was he really any more dutiful?

[Vympel]

It's more than that - he's the only competitor who is determined to do the right thing.

Yeah, that is another point in his favour. Renly was solely in it for his own vanity - it takes some balls to make a play for being King when you have no right to the throne whatsoever. At least Stannis knew that Robert's kids weren't really his, Renly didn't give a damn about that, or that he was the youngest of the family.

Its too bad Stannis is so clearly doomed - considering he goes around with an obviously glamoured sword that really isn't Lightbringer, I can't picture him ever sitting on the Iron Throne.

On the other hand, didn't GRRM say that it would be a very unlikely person who ends up sitting the throne? Hmmm.

[Bright]

Its too bad Stannis is so clearly doomed - considering he goes around with an obviously glamoured sword that really isn't Lightbringer, I can't picture him ever sitting on the Iron Throne.

Ah, Stannis might not get the throne, but that doesn't mean he's doomed. I've actually been mulling over whether he might not give up his claim in the right circumstances. It seems so unthinkable considering his rigidity, but the fact is that he doesn't want to be king, nor Azor Ahai. If it turned out that Jon Snow was the chosen one, and Daenerys appeared with her arguably better claim to the Iron Throne, I think he might be convinced to bend the knee - especially if it came down to defeating the Others. Not that I would mind him getting to be King. He's one of my favorite characters.

[Nephtys]

It's more than that - he's the only competitor who is determined to do the right thing.

...and when is doing the right thing a good thing in ASoIaF? He would be hated as a king no matter how just he was, and it'd inspire undermining and rebellion either way. That's probably not a good trait, when compromise is something that's needed given that the political situation in the 7 Kingdoms is so unstable.

[TC Pilot]

I think Renly would have been the same spendthrift Robert was. It would have been the status quo except the Tyrells replaced the Lannisters.

Well, there's certainly a sense of that in the way Renly's glacial advance on King's Landing was more like a giant party than a military action. Even so, Mace Tyrell is no Tywin Lannister, Margarey is no Cersei, and Loras is no Jaime.

On the other hand, didn't GRRM say that it would be a very unlikely person who ends up sitting the throne? Hmmm.

Tyrion.

Out of curiousity, when did he say that? Because I'd really be surprised if the man's plans haven't changed over the course of 15 years. Of course, it could just be a giant red herring given of how predictable it would be for Dany to take over.

[Setzer]

I think Margaery Tyrell being no Cersei is a good thing. At least Margaery understands it's a good thing to win over the commoners in the capital. Loras... I know Jaime wanted Loras to command the Kingsguard in his absence, so he can't be a complete peacock. He's a capable fighter and rather arrogant, but decent enough once he's had some more experience.

[Vympel]

Well Loras copped a few crossbow bolts and got boiling oil poured on him, so I'm sure he's chilled out somewhat. He definitely won't be pretty anymore. Knight of the Flowers? More like Knight of the Crispy Skin.

Out of curiousity, when did he say that? Because I'd really be surprised if the man's plans haven't changed over the course of 15 years. Of course, it could just be a giant red herring given of how predictable it would be for Dany to take over.

Its just something I read on the westeros.org forums. If one thing seems clear, GRRM has had the major details of this story mapped out for quite a while, there's several examples of that.

[Mr Bean]

Well Loras copped a few crossbow bolts and got boiling oil poured on him, so I'm sure he's chilled out somewhat. He definitely won't be pretty anymore. Knight of the Flowers? More like Knight of the Crispy Skin.

Dance spoilers behold
Spoiler

Dance has some indications in the Cerse chapter that the Kentucky friend Loras story might be bullshit at least in part. Was he injured? Yes but perhaps not boiling oil bad. After all as Loras already proved dress a man in another man's armor and it's easy to show a "dead man" riding into battle because Knights go into battle armored from head to foot. There are theories that Loras either was not at the battle to begin with or in fact was there and swapped out after taking some crossbow bolts.

[DrMckay]

Honestly, I'd be okay with Davos Seaworth somehow taking the throne. He's a decent guy, but his past as a smuggler makes him more pragmatic than Ned.

Of course, the guy I'd really like to see on the Iron Throne is Bronn, Tyrion's former sellsword, now a landed knight and a lord. All he needs to do is keep on rising, and he plays the Game like a champ.

[Nephtys]

Azor Ahai reborn will clearly be the new king, and he is going to be a man of great stature, who was wronged by what happened due to the Lannisters, yet has the strength to handle all that may come. He will have survived the frozen north, beyond the wall against the white walkers. He will have strong blood in his veins and an unshakable confidence in himself.

and his name is Hodor.

[Setzer]

Well Loras copped a few crossbow bolts and got boiling oil poured on him, so I'm sure he's chilled out somewhat. He definitely won't be pretty anymore. Knight of the Flowers? More like Knight of the Crispy Skin.

Dance spoilers behold
Spoiler

Dance has some indications in the Cerse chapter that the Kentucky friend Loras story might be bullshit at least in part. Was he injured? Yes but perhaps not boiling oil bad. After all as Loras already proved dress a man in another man's armor and it's easy to show a "dead man" riding into battle because Knights go into battle armored from head to foot. There are theories that Loras either was not at the battle to begin with or in fact was there and swapped out after taking some crossbow bolts.

I don't see why that would be the case for a moment. Loras is obsessed with glory in battle. Why would he Spoiler

Sit out the siege, wound or no?

[Vympel]

Azor Ahai reborn will clearly be the new king, and he is going to be a man of great stature, who was wronged by what happened due to the Lannisters, yet has the strength to handle all that may come. He will have survived the frozen north, beyond the wall against the white walkers. He will have strong blood in his veins and an unshakable confidence in himself.

and his name is Hodor.

It is known.

[Mr Bean]

I don't see why that would be the case for a moment. Loras is obsessed with glory in battle. Why would he Spoiler

Sit out the siege, wound or no?

Because Spoiler

He was not sitting out the seige they had just taken the outer wall and had taken a few crossbow bolts doing it so they regrouped for the assault on the heart of the castle and there was a delay between the first assault and the second assault where he got the face full of oil. If the arrows had put him down serious enough to require Immediate Maester Attention he might have set a squire or his brother or the like to finish the assault. And while he is obsessed with glory he's not an idiot (Except about thinking he could take the Mountain) he's smart enough about most things.

[Guardsman Bass]

Honestly, I can't see Stannis surviving past the fall of the Wall. He's tough and stubborn, and unlikely to retreat in the face of the Others now that he has found his calling. Remember how Donal Noye compared him to "black iron"? He'll break before he bends.

[Bright]

There is that. I can still hope though. Personally, I would find it quite poignant if Stannis managed to overcome himself and develop as a person when the stakes are high. This would also be a little bit more interesting than just playing into someone else's expectations/foreshadowing.

[Vympel]

Confirmed:- Season 3 will not be a single season.

[Guardsman Bass]

Not surprising. The book is really too big for a single season, even if they got 12-13 episodes in a season.

I wonder where they'll make the break. The book has several points where it hits a climax (the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding), as well as a huge battle on the Fist of First Men (beginning Season 3 with that would be starting it with a huge bang) and at the Wall.

[Crazedwraith]

Over here. Storm OF Swords is already broken up into two volumes when published; 'Steel and Snow' and 'Blood and Gold'. The first volume ends when Jon escapes the wildings at Queenscrown.

Both weddings are a good way through the 2nd volume. Too late to use as a split unless you did some serious re-jiggering.

[Vympel]

They've said that in Season 3 they'd like to get up to the Red Wedding at least. I reckon its doable. Finish Season 4 with STANNIS!

[Faqa]

Huh. Now that I think of it, slitting Catelyn's throat and cutting to black would be an excellent season finale. Although I worry that there isn't enough material to sustain a full season in what's left after RW in ASOS. And they really do have to end a season with Tyrion shooting Tywin. It's too big an event otherwise. Maybe bring in Brienne's storyline from AFFC for padding, especially if Jaime's plots are being moved up anyway?

[Vympel]

Huh. Now that I think of it, slitting Catelyn's throat and cutting to black would be an excellent season finale. Although I worry that there isn't enough material to sustain a full season in what's left after RW in ASOS. And they really do have to end a season with Tyrion shooting Tywin. It's too big an event otherwise. Maybe bring in Brienne's storyline from AFFC for padding, especially if Jaime's plots are being moved up anyway?

Exactly. I think everyone expects a lot of that book to simply not be filmed, given that Tyrion, Jon and Dany aren't even in it. Samwell/ Sansa/ Cersei / Arya / Jaime etc matters, though.