Reasons for the Federation not including Marines/Army

[Elheru Aran]

Personal shields are apparently fairly rare and aside from the Borg almost always appear when someone's playing silly buggers with the combadge or something. If they were that easy for a mall-cop to jury-rig out of a combadge, the Federation would be issuing them to everybody; the fact that they don't suggests either that they don't see a need, or they're stupid. Your choice.

[Danny]

Keep in mind that episode the rigged com badge shield lasted for 15 seconds, and it was able to deflect 19th century ballistics. Im pretty sure an energy based weapon with more power woulda rendered worf's shields useless. Plus personal shields i would imagine would be bulky pieces. Also [painfully obvious] the borg are much more advanced, so they can make such tech where starfleet is either too inept or too stubborn to do the same. I always thought some armor was needed, like ablative armor but for ground combat would be better for troops, though this might prove too cost/time demanding. Sorta like SW where imperial troops wear "armor" but die after 1 hit. Useless pieces of shit.

[Batman]

Stormtroopers drop after 1 hit. So do modern day troops wearing body armour. Stupid pieces of shit. For all we know, every stormtrooper dropped by blaster fire in the OT survived. Oh, and not only do we know from the EU that they can turn a direct blaster hit into something survivable, they serve as NBC suits and are the next best thing to invulnerable to projectile weapons.

[Enigma]

Personal shields are apparently fairly rare and aside from the Borg almost always appear when someone's playing silly buggers with the combadge or something. If they were that easy for a mall-cop to jury-rig out of a combadge, the Federation would be issuing them to everybody; the fact that they don't suggests either that they don't see a need, or they're stupid. Your choice.

It is more like Starfleet's stupidity since an admiral had already stated that they had enough personal forcefields to equip an army. Too bad they didn't bother issuing them to their starships. The away team casualties would drop dramatically if they had them.

[Danny]

Stormtroopers drop after 1 hit. So do modern day troops wearing body armour. Stupid pieces of shit. For all we know, every stormtrooper dropped by blaster fire in the OT survived. Oh, and not only do we know from the EU that they can turn a direct blaster hit into something survivable, they serve as NBC suits and are the next best thing to invulnerable to projectile weapons.

Your right they do "drop" after a blaster hit. However when watching the movies, they dont get up again. They might be stunned or just knocked out, but before the EU, they were assumed to be killed. Even reading the wookipedia article on the armor, theres plenty of discrepancies regarding its effectiveness. They say its suppose to deflect blasters or lessen the power and impact, but visuals say otherwise.

The suit may work well in hostile environments, but there is no visual evidence troopers survive blaster shots. Either way, i doubt starfleet would be wise enough to create some sort of armor or P.S. for soldiers.

[Batman]

Stormtroopers drop after 1 hit. So do modern day troops wearing body armour. Stupid pieces of shit. For all we know, every stormtrooper dropped by blaster fire in the OT survived. Oh, and not only do we know from the EU that they can turn a direct blaster hit into something survivable, they serve as NBC suits and are the next best thing to invulnerable to projectile weapons.

Your right they do "drop" after a blaster hit. However when watching the movies, they dont get up again. They might be stunned or just knocked out, but before the EU, they were assumed to be killed.

Why is that in any way relevant? What we as the viewers assume doesn't matter, what is actually shown in the movies is. And what is shown is that they drop and that's about it.

Even reading the wookipedia article on the armor, theres plenty of discrepancies regarding its effectiveness. They say its suppose to deflect blasters or lessen the power and impact, but visuals say otherwise.

Oh really. You no doubt have examples handy that disprove that. Because all I remember from the OT is blaster bolt hits stormie, sparkles and smoke, stormie drops. But since you obviously know a lot more about blaster operation/blaster bolt/armour interaction than I do DO feel free to elaborate.

The suit may work well in hostile environments, but there is no visual evidence troopers survive blaster shots.

There's no visual evidence they die from them either.

[Uraniun235]

You can't have only one branch of the military without the others. If you have no navy, how are your army going anywhere that they can't walk/ride to? If you have no air force, how are you going to hit targets that are beyond the reach of conventional artillery (ICBM's are actually frequently controlled by air forces...)? If you have a space force but no ground-pounders, how are you going to maintain control over the planet you're trying to take, especially if you have ethical constraints against simply massacring the inhabitants from space?

You aren't thinking things through. A ground military, while less important in a civilization that's primarily space-based, is still necessary.

Would it necessarily be referred to as a separate branch, though?

Kirk does say in Tomorrow is Yesterday: "We're a combined service" in response to the Air Force pilot asking about the Navy.

[Danny]

Oh really. You no doubt have examples handy that disprove that. Because all I remember from the OT is blaster bolt hits stormie, sparkles and smoke, stormie drops. But since you obviously know a lot more about blaster operation/blaster bolt/armour interaction than I do DO feel free to elaborate.

This is all from wookipedia:

"Our body armor isn’t able to withstand direct blaster shots, but it is designed to survive the most extreme conditions."
―TK329

"However, during the Battle of Borosk between the 407th and 908th stormtrooper divisions, it was observed that direct blaster hits seemed to render troopers incapacitated, although it is possible that the effect of the blast was dissipated and the trooper survived"

^it is possible, but not proven

"Stormtrooper armor as portrayed in the films is highly ineffective as combat protection and is generally hindering to the wearer. Though this may largely be due to the now infamous stormtrooper effect, it has given rise to much fan speculation and outright mockery"...

^Yah no kidding.

There's no visual evidence they die from them either.

No they arent dead, they are just shocked.






Its a mexican siesta.






i wonder what happened to all the prisoners?






LOL!






oh dont worry- hes just tripped and fell.






wait for it...WAIT FOR IT...






boom!






i doubt this guy is still alive...






a fight with klingons...




Even IF they werent killed, WHY WOULD YOU WANT THESE SORRY PIECES OF SHIT AS PART OF YOUR ARMY? They cant even move! These are stormtroopers- the elite guard of the entire imperial infantry. They made a complete mockery of their name and their emperor. No wonder the empire lost. Their whole existence is essentially to overwhelm their enemy as cannon fodder. The woodland pics there are part of the Emperors "best legion", and they lost to these guys





















Face it dude- they are worthless. I prefer the clone war troopers over the movie ones anyways. Atleast the clones in the prequels were more mobile [because they were CGI], and fought with a little bit more common sense. Hell man i pick the ferengi over the stormtroopers anyday.










much more intimidating









Storm troopers? These P'tah are so pitiful they arent even worthy of story and song...


ST troops over SW anyday.

[Darth Fanboy]

Oh I don't know what's better, the fact that we're saying that Trek soldiers are better because of picspam involving Stormtroopers in combat against enemy combatants armed at the same tech level or if the fact that we are going to use a scowling picture of Gowron as "evidence."

Let the Pregnant Bajoran Warrior jokes commence.

Seriously, go start some posts over in SW vs ST, this could be some real amusement.

[Stofsk]

'You will die!' *swivels on chair while remaining perfectly upright and rigid. 'Slowly!'

*beat - then slow smile*

'DUUURRAAASSSSS!'

I fucking love Gowron.

[Ted C]

Personal shields are apparently fairly rare and aside from the Borg almost always appear when someone's playing silly buggers with the combadge or something. If they were that easy for a mall-cop to jury-rig out of a combadge, the Federation would be issuing them to everybody; the fact that they don't suggests either that they don't see a need, or they're stupid. Your choice.

I've never thought that scene really said much about the ability to make personal shields. A commbadge is designed to interface with the ship's computer system wirelessly, and the computer (regardless of how wonky it's behaving) controls the holodeck. A core mechanic of the holodeck is its ability to create force-fields. Worf's personal shield in "A Fist Full of Datas" strikes me as more of a holodeck hack than an independent personal shield.

[Darth Fanboy]

Did anyone ever see the VHS game set on the Ent D with Rober O'Reilly as not-Gowron? Classic.

[Batman]

Oh really. You no doubt have examples handy that disprove that. Because all I remember from the OT is blaster bolt hits stormie, sparkles and smoke, stormie drops. But since you obviously know a lot more about blaster operation/blaster bolt/armour interaction than I do DO feel free to elaborate.

This is all from wookipedia:

I.e. as non-canon source,

"Our body armor isn’t able to withstand direct blaster shots, but it is designed to survive the most extreme conditions."
―TK329

which curiously enough doesn't say a word about what happens to the trooper

"However, during the Battle of Borosk between the 407th and 908th stormtrooper divisions, it was observed that direct blaster hits seemed to render troopers incapacitated, although it is possible that the effect of the blast was dissipated and the trooper survived"
^it is possible, but not proven

Actually it IS proven as per the Rogue Squadron novels

"Stormtrooper armor as portrayed in the films is highly ineffective as combat protection and is generally hindering to the wearer. Though this may largely be due to the now infamous stormtrooper effect, it has given rise to much fan speculation and outright mockery"...
^Yah no kidding.

Also completely wrong.

There's no visual evidence they die from them either.

*snippy image*
No they arent dead, they are just shocked.

And you know they are dead because?

*snippy image*
Its a mexican siesta.

Again, your evidence any of those troopers are dead is?

*snippy image*
i wonder what happened to all the prisoners?

I can't see a single dead stormtrooper in that picture. In fact, I can't see a stormtrooper in that picture period.

*snippy picture*
LOL!

Yeah. That guy's obviously dead. Oh wait. How, exactly, do you know this? Because all I see is a stromtrooper falling to the floor. Yeah. I mean people totally only ever do that when they've been killed stone cold dead. Nobody ever falls down just because they were wounded.

*snippy image*
oh dont worry- hes just tripped and fell.

Again, your evidence that the guy is dead is what again?

*snippy image*
boom!

You do realize this picture doesn't help you at all, what with it showing a stormtrooper upright despite suffering a head hit.

*snippy image*
i doubt this guy is still alive...

Why? Because you say so? All that picture shows is a stormtrooper dropping from a hit.

Even IF they werent killed, WHY WOULD YOU WANT THESE SORRY PIECES OF SHIT AS PART OF YOUR ARMY? They cant even move!

They seem to be able to do so just fine in the OT, leave alone their predecessors in the PT and the Clone Wars cartoons.

These are stormtroopers- the elite guard of the entire imperial infantry. They made a complete mockery of their name and their emperor. No wonder the empire lost. Their whole existence is essentially to overwhelm their enemy as cannon fodder. The woodland pics there are part of the Emperors "best legion", and they lost to these guys*snippy pics*

I suggest you rewatch the movie. The Ewoks were getting their asses handed to them-despite being massively stronger than humans, despite fighting on their home turf, despite having traps galore prepared for the Imperials-until Chewie hijacked that AT-ST.

Face it dude- they are worthless. I prefer the clone war troopers over the movie ones anyways. Atleast the clones in the prequels were more mobile [because they were CGI], and fought with a little bit more common sense. Hell man i pick the ferengi over the stormtroopers anyday.

Ferengi can survive MJ level energy weapons and survive projectile weapons that make a modern day 25mm cannon go hide in the closet? DO elaborate.

*snippy image*
much more intimidating

I think you're confusing 'intimidating' with 'ugly'.

*snippy image*
Storm troopers? These P'tah are so pitiful they arent even worthy of story and song...
ST troops over SW anyday.

Yeah. TNG Klingons. The SciFi infantry force that would get their asses handed to them by a Napoleon era army, because ranged weapons are for wusses, we'll knife them to death.

[StarSword]

Regarding the last point:

... it would be assumed that the colony is taken easily because no army in the universe can withstand a bunch of moronic thugs running around screaming and waving bat'leths around in the air.

[Danny]

I would go into great detail pointing out your fallacies, but there is no point. You ignore the complete obvious in an attempt to portray star wars as "superior". All the quotes i mentioned are canon [EU, which even SW lovers must admit is BS like ST novels]. Pics of troopers dying or just "getting shot" arent taken at face value because when one makes up his mind- even physical evidence means nothing.

'oh but we dont see them dying!'. Yah we dont seem them getting up or being resuscitated either. In any cause, our prisons are gonna be pretty full with ex storm troopers. I used both 'visual' and 'dialogue' to prove my point. Regardless, though 24th century fed troops are sloppy and retarded, they are no where near the sheer incompetence of 'elite' storm troopers.

... it would be assumed that the colony is taken easily because no army in the universe can withstand a bunch of moronic thugs running around screaming and waving bat'leths around in the air.

This statement is so ridiculous i cannot even fathom an appropriate comeback. Only a die hard SW fan with no respect for ST would say shit like this. I guess it would be assumed storm troopers make great soldiers because they "cant die", and they will eventually overwhelm. Pro SW anti ST sentiment ever present. Even us trekkies acknowledge the many strengths of SW- but no warsie could ever do the same. Your not even a real warsie unless you despise ST. Fucksake man

[Batman]

I would go into great detail pointing out your fallacies, but there is no point.

Indeed, as you'd have to admit you can't do it.

You ignore the complete obvious in an attempt to portray star wars as "superior".

By all means elaborate.

All the quotes i mentioned are canon [EU, which even SW lovers must admit is BS like ST novels]

All the quotes are also opinions uttered by in-universe characters. Why don't you show me the EU quote that says 'stormtrooper armour is utterly useless against blasters', especially as thanks to the X-Wing squadron novels we know it isn't.

Pics of troopers dying or just "getting shot" arent taken at face value because when one makes up his mind- even physical evidence means nothing

I await your proof that any of the the troopers shown in the pictures you spammed was actually dead with bated breath. All you have shown so far were troopers who went down. Again, burden of proof to show they were actually dead is up to you.

'oh but we dont see them dying!'. Yah we dont seem them getting up or being resuscitated either.

Completely irrelevant. You claim they're dead, you prove they are. All we see is they're down for the time being.

In any cause, our prisons are gonna be pretty full with ex storm troopers. I used both 'visual' and 'dialogue' to prove my point.

You blithely claimed to have done so. Not quite the same thing. You have yet to counter a single point from my last post.

Regardless, though 24th century fed troops are sloppy and retarded, they are no where near the sheer incompetence of 'elite'storm troopers.

As evidenced by what, exactly?

... it would be assumed that the colony is taken easily because no army in the universe can withstand a bunch of moronic thugs running around screaming and waving bat'leths around in the air.

This statement is so ridiculous i cannot even fathom an appropriate comeback. Only a die hard SW fan with no respect for ST would say shit like this.

Or anybody sane who realizes the TNG/DS9 take on Klingon battle tactics was stupid beyond belief.

I guess it would be assumed storm troopers make great soldiers because they "cant die", and they will eventually overwhelm.

Against TNG Klingons? They win by default, as they use blasters while Klingons use knifes.

Pro SW anti ST sentiment ever present. Even us trekkies acknowledge the many strengths of SW- but no warsie could ever do the same. Your not even a real warsie unless you despise ST. Fucksake man

Methinks we have another butthurt Trektard here. The fact that warsies on this board happily agree that there's a fuckton of factions that could eat Wars for breakfast and not notice obviously doesn't register with your lot.

[Panzersharkcat]

Methinks we have another butthurt Trektard here. The fact that warsies on this board happily agree that there's a fuckton of factions that could eat Wars for breakfast and not notice obviously doesn't register with your lot.

And if Danny boy wants a thread on that, it's here. Look at the last post on there. Twelve sci fi factions ranked higher than the Galactic Empire.

[Batman]

@D13
The scripts have canonicity since when? And I never said those downed troopers can't be dead. I merely said there's no evidence they are. I don't have to prove they aren't, Danny has to prove they are.

[Batman]

I suggest you rewatch the movie. The Ewoks were getting their asses handed to them-despite being massively stronger than humans, despite fighting on their home turf, despite having traps galore prepared for the Imperials-until Chewie hijacked that AT-ST.

Wait, are you telling me that the trooper army didn't lose to another army.... but instead lost to just one guy?
That makes them even more fucking pathetic.

Yeah. I mean somebody hijacking one of their AT-STs is something they totally should have expected. It's not like they were up against a stone age culture they safely could have expected to ignore them or something.

Though, I suggest you watch the movie. The Empire lost, and were taking big losses even when winning early on. The ewoks score at least two walker kills (with logs, lol) and several trooper kills.

Where, pray tell, do you get the idea the Empire was losing? So the Imps lose two AT-STs and a handful of troopers. This translates into them losing-how, exactly?

BTW, earlier in the film, a stone age spear is seen penetrating trooper armor,

No it's not. It's seen to penetrate the body glove. This has been done only like 19 million times before?

then a stone age club knocks the guy out in a single hit (a hit from Princess Leia too - a regular human).

Even ignoring the fact that Leia is actually a fledgeling Jedi, so what? This doesn't say beans about the durability of stormtrooper armour.

Of course, they are probably just optimized against their main opponent, so dying to stone age weapons doesn't mean it's necessarily useless.

Somebody apparently forgot CoM.

Ferengi can survive MJ level energy weapons and survive projectile weapons that make a modern day 25mm cannon go hide in the closet?

SCRIPT ignored as those are not canon.

The walkers might have MJ level weaponry. None of the hand weapons come close.

ANH disagrees.

And btw, the walker guns kill troopers fucking dead (as do rocks and spears and arrows).](quote]
No, they make them drop to the ground. It's on you to show those troopers are actually dead.

[Danny]

Indeed, as you'd have to admit you can't do it.

I already did through visual and dialogue from a friggin stormtrooper LOL! You prove to me they arent dead? Soldiers dont leave their compatriots on the ground [even dead] like that. If what you say is true, then the stromtroopers are utter pieces of shit. Blasted but not dead? So they are wounded. So that means they just leave them there rather than take them to the medical ward. Please. Even some1 with a little dose of common sense knows they are dead.

You ignore the complete obvious in an attempt to portray star wars as "superior".
By all means elaborate.

No. This about ground troops. Elaborating further would send me to the star wars vs star trek thread. This isnt the appropriate thread.

All the quotes are also opinions

Does that invalidate them then? If so, why bother even reading anything? Why bother with the whole point of character development in the first place?

Why don't you show me the EU quote that says 'stormtrooper armour is utterly useless against blasters

',
Read between the lines. Stormtrooper enters, stormtrooper gets hit. Stormtrooper falls. Stormtrooper is left on the ground while his compatriot just looks at him.

Stormtrooper: He looks so peaceful sleeping. I wonder how pissed hes gonna be when he wakes up and realizes he got blasted

Bullshit.

especially as thanks to the X-Wing squadron novels we know it isn't.

A star wars fan pointed out to me "Visuals trump Dialog". Your very own novel shows a storm trooper showing discontent over his armor. When a Marine says he's kevlar vest is really heavy and slows him down- he isnt lying...That shit IS heavy. If he says his m4 is defective, he aint lying dude...its defective.

I await your proof that any of the the troopers shown in the pictures you spammed was actually dead with bated breath. All you have shown so far were troopers who went down. Again, burden of proof to show they were actually dead is up to you.

Spamming? i was merely showing physical evidence. Prove to me they are still alive? You cant. BOTH Dialogue and Visuals prove they are dead, not sleeping.

Completely irrelevant

.
It always comes back to that dosent it? Its easier to ignore than acknowledge.

You claim they're dead, you prove they are. All we see is they're down for the time being.

Kevlar is suppose to protect soldiers. Kevlar however, is not without its faults. Soldiers still die because of kevlar. I know because it happened to a distant friend. "oh hes still alive because hes wearing his armor...oh wait...dude...wake up?"

You have yet to counter a single point from my last post.

I didnt even try LOL. I shook my head in disbelief. Fed soldier gets shot with a phaser. Fed officer looks at him and walks away- hes dead.

As evidenced by what, exactly?

Not the appropriate thread to go further. It would mean picking out other things, but this isnt the appropriate thread.

Or anybody sane who realizes the TNG/DS9 take on Klingon battle tactics was stupid beyond belief.

No1 disputes that. Still worked though. Something to be said about a ravaging horde of vikings.

Against TNG Klingons? They win by default, as they use blasters while Klingons use knifes.

See this is what im typing about- a pro star wars fan having no clue what hes talking about. If you had bothered to watch both TNG and DS9, you would know klingon troops use disruptors in battle, and only use batleths when they go into Close quarter combat. In fact TNG rarely shows klingons fighting with batleths. See DS9 Nor the battle to the strong: klingons both use disruptors and mortars.

Methinks we have another butthurt Trektard here. The fact that warsies on this board happily agree that there's a fuckton of factions that could eat Wars for breakfast and not notice obviously doesn't register with your lot.

Butthurt? Hardly, i just like to comically show the bias of SW fans against ST. My lot happen to be moderates who point out the BS in both universes, not just 1. You seem to think im a hardcore trekkie who prefers ST over SW on anything. I love both universe, and i dont pick one over the other in taste except in length. Its all a toss up.

And if Danny boy wants a thread on that, it's here. Look at the last post on there. Twelve sci fi factions ranked higher than the Galactic Empire.

This thread is about reasons the fed dosent have an army. In our discussion, its SW stormtroopers. Were not typing about Wing Commander, Starcraft, babylon 5, or any of them. I dont care if the galactice empire does not have a high rating compared to other sci fi ideas because this is only about sw and st for now. But the kilrathi are badasses.

I suggest you rewatch the movie. The Ewoks were getting their asses handed to them-despite being massively stronger than humans, despite fighting on their home turf, despite having traps galore prepared for the Imperials-until Chewie hijacked that AT-ST.

Massively stronger than humans? In what scene? Please educate me. Did not the empire STILL LOSE?

Yeah. I mean somebody hijacking one of their AT-STs is something they totally should have expected. It's not like they were up against a stone age culture they safely could have expected to ignore them or something

Overconfidence does not negate the fact you still lost the battle.

Where, pray tell, do you get the idea the Empire was losing? So the Imps lose two AT-STs and a handful of troopers. This translates into them losing-how, exactly?

Did they not lose the battle? Yes they did-the end.

And btw, the walker guns kill troopers fucking dead (as do rocks and spears and arrows).
No, they make them drop to the ground. It's on you to show those troopers are actually dead.

For all you know they didnt take off their armor and bash their brains in. Wouldnt be far from a stone age society. Prove to me they are not dead? Ask any marine or army 11b- they dont just look at their compatriots and stand away even if they are dead. Wounded- they immediately medievac them. Dead- they process them and put them all in 1 area.

"oh your bringing modern age shit to the past. Imperial troops are just assholes who dont seem to care their friends are "stunned".

Oh plz.

BTW- blasters have both stun and kill settings in the movies. Reasonable to believe they were set to kill. The EU says it deflects it, we saw otherwise in the movies. And again i stress a tip from a SW fan- visual beats dialogue.

I look forward to hearing your reply, albeit i have a busy night ahead of me so my reply is gonna have to wait to later afternoon tommorow. Good evening gentlemen.

[Panzersharkcat]

For a soldier, you seem to have forgotten the idea of METT-TC. Handle the mission first, then take care of your wounded. The enemy will not care that you are stopping to treat them and any men you send off to do so is one less gun shooting at the enemy. At least that's they way it got hammered into my head when I was in ROTC. As for Ewoks being massively stronger, there's the way they casually toss around 30-lb-rocks like they were Styrofoam props. That also attests to the strength of Stormtrooper armor, given the way they repelled the rocks landing on their helmets without being dented. The guy underneath is still dead or injured, since no armor can violate conservation of momentum and all.

[Panzersharkcat]

No clue, though I'm going with trained to focus on the mission as the explanation for not helping their buddies out. And yeah, a good number of them most likely dead. Just drop it, Bats, so we can get back on topic.

[StarSword]

@Danny: First off, my quoting of Darth Wong on the main site was meant as a bad joke, which was the way I took your pictures of Gowron and Ferengi.

With that out of the way...

Indeed, as you'd have to admit you can't do it.

I already did through visual and dialogue from a friggin stormtrooper LOL! You prove to me they arent dead? Soldiers dont leave their compatriots on the ground [even dead] like that. If what you say is true, then the stromtroopers are utter pieces of shit. Blasted but not dead? So they are wounded. So that means they just leave them there rather than take them to the medical ward. Please. Even some1 with a little dose of common sense knows they are dead.

Stormtroopers are trained and indoctrinated to mourn the fallen after the battle instead of freezing up when the guy next to them gets his head blown off (known to happen in Star Trek). This is canon as early as the OT Visual Dictionary at the very least.

All the quotes are also opinions

Does that invalidate them then? If so, why bother even reading anything? Why bother with the whole point of character development in the first place?

Why don't you show me the EU quote that says 'stormtrooper armour is utterly useless against blasters

',
Read between the lines. Stormtrooper enters, stormtrooper gets hit. Stormtrooper falls. Stormtrooper is left on the ground while his compatriot just looks at him.

Stormtrooper: He looks so peaceful sleeping. I wonder how pissed hes gonna be when he wakes up and realizes he got blasted

Bullshit.

especially as thanks to the X-Wing squadron novels we know it isn't.

A star wars fan pointed out to me "Visuals trump Dialog". Your very own novel shows a storm trooper showing discontent over his armor. When a Marine says he's kevlar vest is really heavy and slows him down- he isnt lying...That shit IS heavy. If he says his m4 is defective, he aint lying dude...its defective.

Everyone, I tried to explain this to him earlier in PMs. I must be a masochist because here I go again. Visuals override dialogue only in event of a conflict. The underlying concept is, people say wrong things all the time, but visuals are assumed to be infallible since they're treated as a first-hand documentary under the principle of suspension-of-disbelief.

Destructionator XIII twice noted an instance in ANH where the stormies who boarded the Tantive IV checked for pulses in their fallen comrades. I agree with his assessment: if the armor doesn't work against blasterfire, why bother checking? The OT Visual Dictionary explicitly states that stormtrooper armor can repel glancing hits, but a direct hit will go through. Two characters in Rogue Squadron, Lieutenant Corran Horn and Flight Officer Gavin Darklighter, survived hits to center of mass because they were wearing stormtrooper armor they had, shall we say, acquired from those who no longer had need of it. (The fact that their injuries required several days of bacta treatment despite the armor gives even more credence to the high-end firepower estimates.) For physical impacts, well. During the Ewoks' opening volley, we see arrows ricochet off a scout-trooper. In one of the Young Jedi Knights books, a character survived a spear thrown with enough force to lift him bodily off the floor, and the cuirass was merely dented. The evidence is overwhelming that the armor does sometimes save lives.

There's also plenty of evidence that it doesn't work every time. I doubt the guy who took a headshot at Endor is going to be getting up again. In the novelization, a hit from Leia's blaster went right through the lighter-weight scout-trooper armor. You noted the Ewoks turned a dozen captured helmets into a xylophone. (That one always cracks me up.) I agree, I doubt their owners were still around. Such is the nature of armor. It simply raises the probability that a weapon strike will not be fatal.

Against TNG Klingons? They win by default, as they use blasters while Klingons use knifes.

See this is what im typing about- a pro star wars fan having no clue what hes talking about. If you had bothered to watch both TNG and DS9, you would know klingon troops use disruptors in battle, and only use batleths when they go into Close quarter combat. In fact TNG rarely shows klingons fighting with batleths. See DS9 Nor the battle to the strong: klingons both use disruptors and mortars.

I think a simple ratio might settle this one. Namely, how often do we see them use melee weapons, and how often ranged weapons?

Before you pounce, I don't honestly know what the answer is.

BTW- blasters have both stun and kill settings in the movies. Reasonable to believe they were set to kill. The EU says it deflects it, we saw otherwise in the movies. And again i stress a tip from a SW fan- visual beats dialogue.

Um, it's quite certain they were set to kill. Unlike phasers, whose shots look exactly the same regardless of power level, blasters are repeatedly stated (and shown in ANH) to look decidedly different in stun and kill settings. Kill is the energy bolt we all know and love, which comes in red, green, and blue. Stun (seen a grand total of three times that I know of, two of which are EU) consists of a blue ring-shaped pulse.

@DX13 Re: The image you posted. That shot was fired by a hold-out blaster (I forget the make and model), which is what scout-troopers are canonically issued with. All blasters are not alike. Comparing a hold-out pistol to an E-11 rifle is like comparing a derringer to an AK-47. If it hits you somewhere vital, it'll still kill you, but its power and, more to the point, effective range, are far lower. That's why he missed*: he was firing from extreme range (for his weapon), based on where he popped up after the second scout-trooper snuck around and put his pistol to Leia's head.

* Despite the common trekkie line that stormtroopers can't hit the broad side of a barn, we have ample evidence that stormtroopers are actually very good shots, provided they're actually trying to hit you.

[Panzersharkcat]

@DX13 Re: The image you posted. That shot was fired by a hold-out blaster (I forget the make and model), which is what scout-troopers are canonically issued with.

It's just called a scout trooper blaster pistol. That thing is tiny. You can only fit two fingers on the grip.

[Darth Fanboy]

This statement is so ridiculous i cannot even fathom an appropriate comeback. Only a die hard SW fan with no respect for ST would say shit like this. I guess it would be assumed storm troopers make great soldiers because they "cant die", and they will eventually overwhelm. Pro SW anti ST sentiment ever present. Even us trekkies acknowledge the many strengths of SW- but no warsie could ever do the same. Your not even a real warsie unless you despise ST. Fucksake man

Have you even read the main site? Wong doesn't bash Star Trek because he hates the show, he doesn't even really bash it at all. But for the purposes of debating in this hypothetical Sci Fi scenario one can only wonder why the Klingons would use such poor tactics, with the obvious derision not reserved for the series, but for lazy and unimaginative writers that decide to shoehorn all species into an embarassing stereotype (save for the Mary-Sue Humans).

Fuck, *I* completely believe the Empire would kick the shit out of the Feds in a straight up fight given what we have seen on screen for both franchises. But if i'm ranting about how something Star Trek related is garbage it's probably the quality of the writing or terrible science from Voyager. But apparently with you if I don't think it could win in a hypothetical fight, I dislike it? Just reading your posts and your douchebag signature makes me think you're the bastard lovechild of an Internet shut-in and one of those assholes from Jersey Shore.