Reasons for the Federation not including Marines/Army

[StarSword]

Regarding the last point:

... it would be assumed that the colony is taken easily because no army in the universe can withstand a bunch of moronic thugs running around screaming and waving bat'leths around in the air.

[Danny]

I would go into great detail pointing out your fallacies, but there is no point. You ignore the complete obvious in an attempt to portray star wars as "superior". All the quotes i mentioned are canon [EU, which even SW lovers must admit is BS like ST novels]. Pics of troopers dying or just "getting shot" arent taken at face value because when one makes up his mind- even physical evidence means nothing.

'oh but we dont see them dying!'. Yah we dont seem them getting up or being resuscitated either. In any cause, our prisons are gonna be pretty full with ex storm troopers. I used both 'visual' and 'dialogue' to prove my point. Regardless, though 24th century fed troops are sloppy and retarded, they are no where near the sheer incompetence of 'elite' storm troopers.

... it would be assumed that the colony is taken easily because no army in the universe can withstand a bunch of moronic thugs running around screaming and waving bat'leths around in the air.

This statement is so ridiculous i cannot even fathom an appropriate comeback. Only a die hard SW fan with no respect for ST would say shit like this. I guess it would be assumed storm troopers make great soldiers because they "cant die", and they will eventually overwhelm. Pro SW anti ST sentiment ever present. Even us trekkies acknowledge the many strengths of SW- but no warsie could ever do the same. Your not even a real warsie unless you despise ST. Fucksake man

[Batman]

I would go into great detail pointing out your fallacies, but there is no point.

Indeed, as you'd have to admit you can't do it.

You ignore the complete obvious in an attempt to portray star wars as "superior".

By all means elaborate.

All the quotes i mentioned are canon [EU, which even SW lovers must admit is BS like ST novels]

All the quotes are also opinions uttered by in-universe characters. Why don't you show me the EU quote that says 'stormtrooper armour is utterly useless against blasters', especially as thanks to the X-Wing squadron novels we know it isn't.

Pics of troopers dying or just "getting shot" arent taken at face value because when one makes up his mind- even physical evidence means nothing

I await your proof that any of the the troopers shown in the pictures you spammed was actually dead with bated breath. All you have shown so far were troopers who went down. Again, burden of proof to show they were actually dead is up to you.

'oh but we dont see them dying!'. Yah we dont seem them getting up or being resuscitated either.

Completely irrelevant. You claim they're dead, you prove they are. All we see is they're down for the time being.

In any cause, our prisons are gonna be pretty full with ex storm troopers. I used both 'visual' and 'dialogue' to prove my point.

You blithely claimed to have done so. Not quite the same thing. You have yet to counter a single point from my last post.

Regardless, though 24th century fed troops are sloppy and retarded, they are no where near the sheer incompetence of 'elite'storm troopers.

As evidenced by what, exactly?

... it would be assumed that the colony is taken easily because no army in the universe can withstand a bunch of moronic thugs running around screaming and waving bat'leths around in the air.

This statement is so ridiculous i cannot even fathom an appropriate comeback. Only a die hard SW fan with no respect for ST would say shit like this.

Or anybody sane who realizes the TNG/DS9 take on Klingon battle tactics was stupid beyond belief.

I guess it would be assumed storm troopers make great soldiers because they "cant die", and they will eventually overwhelm.

Against TNG Klingons? They win by default, as they use blasters while Klingons use knifes.

Pro SW anti ST sentiment ever present. Even us trekkies acknowledge the many strengths of SW- but no warsie could ever do the same. Your not even a real warsie unless you despise ST. Fucksake man

Methinks we have another butthurt Trektard here. The fact that warsies on this board happily agree that there's a fuckton of factions that could eat Wars for breakfast and not notice obviously doesn't register with your lot.

[Panzersharkcat]

Methinks we have another butthurt Trektard here. The fact that warsies on this board happily agree that there's a fuckton of factions that could eat Wars for breakfast and not notice obviously doesn't register with your lot.

And if Danny boy wants a thread on that, it's here. Look at the last post on there. Twelve sci fi factions ranked higher than the Galactic Empire.

[Batman]

@D13
The scripts have canonicity since when? And I never said those downed troopers can't be dead. I merely said there's no evidence they are. I don't have to prove they aren't, Danny has to prove they are.

[Batman]

I suggest you rewatch the movie. The Ewoks were getting their asses handed to them-despite being massively stronger than humans, despite fighting on their home turf, despite having traps galore prepared for the Imperials-until Chewie hijacked that AT-ST.

Wait, are you telling me that the trooper army didn't lose to another army.... but instead lost to just one guy?
That makes them even more fucking pathetic.

Yeah. I mean somebody hijacking one of their AT-STs is something they totally should have expected. It's not like they were up against a stone age culture they safely could have expected to ignore them or something.

Though, I suggest you watch the movie. The Empire lost, and were taking big losses even when winning early on. The ewoks score at least two walker kills (with logs, lol) and several trooper kills.

Where, pray tell, do you get the idea the Empire was losing? So the Imps lose two AT-STs and a handful of troopers. This translates into them losing-how, exactly?

BTW, earlier in the film, a stone age spear is seen penetrating trooper armor,

No it's not. It's seen to penetrate the body glove. This has been done only like 19 million times before?

then a stone age club knocks the guy out in a single hit (a hit from Princess Leia too - a regular human).

Even ignoring the fact that Leia is actually a fledgeling Jedi, so what? This doesn't say beans about the durability of stormtrooper armour.

Of course, they are probably just optimized against their main opponent, so dying to stone age weapons doesn't mean it's necessarily useless.

Somebody apparently forgot CoM.

Ferengi can survive MJ level energy weapons and survive projectile weapons that make a modern day 25mm cannon go hide in the closet?

SCRIPT ignored as those are not canon.

The walkers might have MJ level weaponry. None of the hand weapons come close.

ANH disagrees.

And btw, the walker guns kill troopers fucking dead (as do rocks and spears and arrows).](quote]
No, they make them drop to the ground. It's on you to show those troopers are actually dead.

[Danny]

Indeed, as you'd have to admit you can't do it.

I already did through visual and dialogue from a friggin stormtrooper LOL! You prove to me they arent dead? Soldiers dont leave their compatriots on the ground [even dead] like that. If what you say is true, then the stromtroopers are utter pieces of shit. Blasted but not dead? So they are wounded. So that means they just leave them there rather than take them to the medical ward. Please. Even some1 with a little dose of common sense knows they are dead.

You ignore the complete obvious in an attempt to portray star wars as "superior".
By all means elaborate.

No. This about ground troops. Elaborating further would send me to the star wars vs star trek thread. This isnt the appropriate thread.

All the quotes are also opinions

Does that invalidate them then? If so, why bother even reading anything? Why bother with the whole point of character development in the first place?

Why don't you show me the EU quote that says 'stormtrooper armour is utterly useless against blasters

',
Read between the lines. Stormtrooper enters, stormtrooper gets hit. Stormtrooper falls. Stormtrooper is left on the ground while his compatriot just looks at him.

Stormtrooper: He looks so peaceful sleeping. I wonder how pissed hes gonna be when he wakes up and realizes he got blasted

Bullshit.

especially as thanks to the X-Wing squadron novels we know it isn't.

A star wars fan pointed out to me "Visuals trump Dialog". Your very own novel shows a storm trooper showing discontent over his armor. When a Marine says he's kevlar vest is really heavy and slows him down- he isnt lying...That shit IS heavy. If he says his m4 is defective, he aint lying dude...its defective.

I await your proof that any of the the troopers shown in the pictures you spammed was actually dead with bated breath. All you have shown so far were troopers who went down. Again, burden of proof to show they were actually dead is up to you.

Spamming? i was merely showing physical evidence. Prove to me they are still alive? You cant. BOTH Dialogue and Visuals prove they are dead, not sleeping.

Completely irrelevant

.
It always comes back to that dosent it? Its easier to ignore than acknowledge.

You claim they're dead, you prove they are. All we see is they're down for the time being.

Kevlar is suppose to protect soldiers. Kevlar however, is not without its faults. Soldiers still die because of kevlar. I know because it happened to a distant friend. "oh hes still alive because hes wearing his armor...oh wait...dude...wake up?"

You have yet to counter a single point from my last post.

I didnt even try LOL. I shook my head in disbelief. Fed soldier gets shot with a phaser. Fed officer looks at him and walks away- hes dead.

As evidenced by what, exactly?

Not the appropriate thread to go further. It would mean picking out other things, but this isnt the appropriate thread.

Or anybody sane who realizes the TNG/DS9 take on Klingon battle tactics was stupid beyond belief.

No1 disputes that. Still worked though. Something to be said about a ravaging horde of vikings.

Against TNG Klingons? They win by default, as they use blasters while Klingons use knifes.

See this is what im typing about- a pro star wars fan having no clue what hes talking about. If you had bothered to watch both TNG and DS9, you would know klingon troops use disruptors in battle, and only use batleths when they go into Close quarter combat. In fact TNG rarely shows klingons fighting with batleths. See DS9 Nor the battle to the strong: klingons both use disruptors and mortars.

Methinks we have another butthurt Trektard here. The fact that warsies on this board happily agree that there's a fuckton of factions that could eat Wars for breakfast and not notice obviously doesn't register with your lot.

Butthurt? Hardly, i just like to comically show the bias of SW fans against ST. My lot happen to be moderates who point out the BS in both universes, not just 1. You seem to think im a hardcore trekkie who prefers ST over SW on anything. I love both universe, and i dont pick one over the other in taste except in length. Its all a toss up.

And if Danny boy wants a thread on that, it's here. Look at the last post on there. Twelve sci fi factions ranked higher than the Galactic Empire.

This thread is about reasons the fed dosent have an army. In our discussion, its SW stormtroopers. Were not typing about Wing Commander, Starcraft, babylon 5, or any of them. I dont care if the galactice empire does not have a high rating compared to other sci fi ideas because this is only about sw and st for now. But the kilrathi are badasses.

I suggest you rewatch the movie. The Ewoks were getting their asses handed to them-despite being massively stronger than humans, despite fighting on their home turf, despite having traps galore prepared for the Imperials-until Chewie hijacked that AT-ST.

Massively stronger than humans? In what scene? Please educate me. Did not the empire STILL LOSE?

Yeah. I mean somebody hijacking one of their AT-STs is something they totally should have expected. It's not like they were up against a stone age culture they safely could have expected to ignore them or something

Overconfidence does not negate the fact you still lost the battle.

Where, pray tell, do you get the idea the Empire was losing? So the Imps lose two AT-STs and a handful of troopers. This translates into them losing-how, exactly?

Did they not lose the battle? Yes they did-the end.

And btw, the walker guns kill troopers fucking dead (as do rocks and spears and arrows).
No, they make them drop to the ground. It's on you to show those troopers are actually dead.

For all you know they didnt take off their armor and bash their brains in. Wouldnt be far from a stone age society. Prove to me they are not dead? Ask any marine or army 11b- they dont just look at their compatriots and stand away even if they are dead. Wounded- they immediately medievac them. Dead- they process them and put them all in 1 area.

"oh your bringing modern age shit to the past. Imperial troops are just assholes who dont seem to care their friends are "stunned".

Oh plz.

BTW- blasters have both stun and kill settings in the movies. Reasonable to believe they were set to kill. The EU says it deflects it, we saw otherwise in the movies. And again i stress a tip from a SW fan- visual beats dialogue.

I look forward to hearing your reply, albeit i have a busy night ahead of me so my reply is gonna have to wait to later afternoon tommorow. Good evening gentlemen.

[Panzersharkcat]

For a soldier, you seem to have forgotten the idea of METT-TC. Handle the mission first, then take care of your wounded. The enemy will not care that you are stopping to treat them and any men you send off to do so is one less gun shooting at the enemy. At least that's they way it got hammered into my head when I was in ROTC. As for Ewoks being massively stronger, there's the way they casually toss around 30-lb-rocks like they were Styrofoam props. That also attests to the strength of Stormtrooper armor, given the way they repelled the rocks landing on their helmets without being dented. The guy underneath is still dead or injured, since no armor can violate conservation of momentum and all.

[Panzersharkcat]

No clue, though I'm going with trained to focus on the mission as the explanation for not helping their buddies out. And yeah, a good number of them most likely dead. Just drop it, Bats, so we can get back on topic.

[StarSword]

@Danny: First off, my quoting of Darth Wong on the main site was meant as a bad joke, which was the way I took your pictures of Gowron and Ferengi.

With that out of the way...

Indeed, as you'd have to admit you can't do it.

I already did through visual and dialogue from a friggin stormtrooper LOL! You prove to me they arent dead? Soldiers dont leave their compatriots on the ground [even dead] like that. If what you say is true, then the stromtroopers are utter pieces of shit. Blasted but not dead? So they are wounded. So that means they just leave them there rather than take them to the medical ward. Please. Even some1 with a little dose of common sense knows they are dead.

Stormtroopers are trained and indoctrinated to mourn the fallen after the battle instead of freezing up when the guy next to them gets his head blown off (known to happen in Star Trek). This is canon as early as the OT Visual Dictionary at the very least.

All the quotes are also opinions

Does that invalidate them then? If so, why bother even reading anything? Why bother with the whole point of character development in the first place?

Why don't you show me the EU quote that says 'stormtrooper armour is utterly useless against blasters

',
Read between the lines. Stormtrooper enters, stormtrooper gets hit. Stormtrooper falls. Stormtrooper is left on the ground while his compatriot just looks at him.

Stormtrooper: He looks so peaceful sleeping. I wonder how pissed hes gonna be when he wakes up and realizes he got blasted

Bullshit.

especially as thanks to the X-Wing squadron novels we know it isn't.

A star wars fan pointed out to me "Visuals trump Dialog". Your very own novel shows a storm trooper showing discontent over his armor. When a Marine says he's kevlar vest is really heavy and slows him down- he isnt lying...That shit IS heavy. If he says his m4 is defective, he aint lying dude...its defective.

Everyone, I tried to explain this to him earlier in PMs. I must be a masochist because here I go again. Visuals override dialogue only in event of a conflict. The underlying concept is, people say wrong things all the time, but visuals are assumed to be infallible since they're treated as a first-hand documentary under the principle of suspension-of-disbelief.

Destructionator XIII twice noted an instance in ANH where the stormies who boarded the Tantive IV checked for pulses in their fallen comrades. I agree with his assessment: if the armor doesn't work against blasterfire, why bother checking? The OT Visual Dictionary explicitly states that stormtrooper armor can repel glancing hits, but a direct hit will go through. Two characters in Rogue Squadron, Lieutenant Corran Horn and Flight Officer Gavin Darklighter, survived hits to center of mass because they were wearing stormtrooper armor they had, shall we say, acquired from those who no longer had need of it. (The fact that their injuries required several days of bacta treatment despite the armor gives even more credence to the high-end firepower estimates.) For physical impacts, well. During the Ewoks' opening volley, we see arrows ricochet off a scout-trooper. In one of the Young Jedi Knights books, a character survived a spear thrown with enough force to lift him bodily off the floor, and the cuirass was merely dented. The evidence is overwhelming that the armor does sometimes save lives.

There's also plenty of evidence that it doesn't work every time. I doubt the guy who took a headshot at Endor is going to be getting up again. In the novelization, a hit from Leia's blaster went right through the lighter-weight scout-trooper armor. You noted the Ewoks turned a dozen captured helmets into a xylophone. (That one always cracks me up.) I agree, I doubt their owners were still around. Such is the nature of armor. It simply raises the probability that a weapon strike will not be fatal.

Against TNG Klingons? They win by default, as they use blasters while Klingons use knifes.

See this is what im typing about- a pro star wars fan having no clue what hes talking about. If you had bothered to watch both TNG and DS9, you would know klingon troops use disruptors in battle, and only use batleths when they go into Close quarter combat. In fact TNG rarely shows klingons fighting with batleths. See DS9 Nor the battle to the strong: klingons both use disruptors and mortars.

I think a simple ratio might settle this one. Namely, how often do we see them use melee weapons, and how often ranged weapons?

Before you pounce, I don't honestly know what the answer is.

BTW- blasters have both stun and kill settings in the movies. Reasonable to believe they were set to kill. The EU says it deflects it, we saw otherwise in the movies. And again i stress a tip from a SW fan- visual beats dialogue.

Um, it's quite certain they were set to kill. Unlike phasers, whose shots look exactly the same regardless of power level, blasters are repeatedly stated (and shown in ANH) to look decidedly different in stun and kill settings. Kill is the energy bolt we all know and love, which comes in red, green, and blue. Stun (seen a grand total of three times that I know of, two of which are EU) consists of a blue ring-shaped pulse.

@DX13 Re: The image you posted. That shot was fired by a hold-out blaster (I forget the make and model), which is what scout-troopers are canonically issued with. All blasters are not alike. Comparing a hold-out pistol to an E-11 rifle is like comparing a derringer to an AK-47. If it hits you somewhere vital, it'll still kill you, but its power and, more to the point, effective range, are far lower. That's why he missed*: he was firing from extreme range (for his weapon), based on where he popped up after the second scout-trooper snuck around and put his pistol to Leia's head.

* Despite the common trekkie line that stormtroopers can't hit the broad side of a barn, we have ample evidence that stormtroopers are actually very good shots, provided they're actually trying to hit you.

[Panzersharkcat]

@DX13 Re: The image you posted. That shot was fired by a hold-out blaster (I forget the make and model), which is what scout-troopers are canonically issued with.

It's just called a scout trooper blaster pistol. That thing is tiny. You can only fit two fingers on the grip.

[Darth Fanboy]

This statement is so ridiculous i cannot even fathom an appropriate comeback. Only a die hard SW fan with no respect for ST would say shit like this. I guess it would be assumed storm troopers make great soldiers because they "cant die", and they will eventually overwhelm. Pro SW anti ST sentiment ever present. Even us trekkies acknowledge the many strengths of SW- but no warsie could ever do the same. Your not even a real warsie unless you despise ST. Fucksake man

Have you even read the main site? Wong doesn't bash Star Trek because he hates the show, he doesn't even really bash it at all. But for the purposes of debating in this hypothetical Sci Fi scenario one can only wonder why the Klingons would use such poor tactics, with the obvious derision not reserved for the series, but for lazy and unimaginative writers that decide to shoehorn all species into an embarassing stereotype (save for the Mary-Sue Humans).

Fuck, *I* completely believe the Empire would kick the shit out of the Feds in a straight up fight given what we have seen on screen for both franchises. But if i'm ranting about how something Star Trek related is garbage it's probably the quality of the writing or terrible science from Voyager. But apparently with you if I don't think it could win in a hypothetical fight, I dislike it? Just reading your posts and your douchebag signature makes me think you're the bastard lovechild of an Internet shut-in and one of those assholes from Jersey Shore.

[Darth Tedious]

Did anyone ever see the VHS game set on the Ent D with Rober O'Reilly as not-Gowron? Classic.

Fuck yeah! I still have it. I crank it out every few years for a laugh.

@D13: While Wikipedia says scripts are canonical, Wookiepedia does not. Have we got an actual LFL source on that, as opposed to wiki entries?

---

Shit people, when did this thread get moved to SW vs ST?

Seriously, I was the first person to mention Stormtroopers in this thread, and that was only as a reference point to armour in sci-fi (and why it may not be so useful in ST).

Even if Stormtrooper armour provides no protection whatsoever from blaster fire (which is incorrect- it can diffuse oblique or glancing shots, and by the Legacy era had been improved to the point of providing decent protection against direct hits), it is still extremely useful. It protects against dust, smoke and nerve gas, allows troops to survive in a vacuum for 2 to 3 minutes, and best of all- it protects against shrapnel. Watch the Tantive IV attack. We see Rebels having trouble when the wall next to them is hit, an issue that would not bother Stormtroopers.

If you look into the history of weapons and armour development through the franchise, you see the progression. Blasters were much less powerful in the past, and personal shields were widely used. Once blasters developed beyond what shields could effectively repel (remember, powerful shields are not safe for personal use, due to radiation issues) armour came into play. Blasters got more powerful again, and by the end of the timeline (Legacy) armour had overtaken blasters once more (with more powerful weapons being developed).
As I mentioned pages ago, this is realistic. Kevlar was invented in 1965, armour piercing bullets capable of defeating Kevlar vests came 3 years later. Weapons and armour develop in cycles through history, overtaking one another at various points in time. RL history shows that armour only stays ahead of weapons for short periods.

Back to Star Trek (and I mentioned this earlier), in-universe history tells us a great deal. The UFP have tried armour at various points in time, and for whatever reasons (budget, usefulness, practicality) decided it wasn't worth it.
Should UFP personell have armour? The UFP doesn't think so. Why is it so?

My theory on this (which I did mention earlier) is that in SW, most of everyone uses blasters. Those that don't tend to use slugthrowers (which plastoid armour protects against beautifully). Armour in the GFFA can be made with this expectation in mind.
In ST, every other faction has completely different weapons, with different destructive mechanisms. What protects you against nadion-based phasers might do nothing to save you from antiproton-based disruptors. And what works against antiprotons might do nothing against sonic disruptors. And so on, for as many different killing mechanism as there are.
To make effective armour for the UFP, you need to either:
a) Make it work against everything you can think of (which likely involves so many fucking layers your troops can't stand up in it).
b) Make a different set of armour to work against the weapons of each faction (i.e. armour for against Romulan disruptors, armour against phasers, armour against bat'leths lol).
The problem with b is that you don't know who will be shooting at you out of the factions you know, and every Valen-damned week you're meeting someone you've never dealt with before.

To me, this seems a perfect explanation as to why the UFP just say 'fuck it' when it comes to armour.

[Danny]

But apparently with you if I don't think it could win in a hypothetical fight, I dislike it? Just reading your posts and your douchebag signature makes me think you're the bastard lovechild of an Internet shut-in and one of those assholes from Jersey Shore.

LOL @ the last comment.

Based on the episode Waltz and on Siege of Ar-558, Starfleet does have its own ground forces branch, but the poor bastards have to rely on just a uniform and a nice rifle for combat, and a hopper. Maybe they have their own unique name that isnt called army or marines...like a variation of MACO?

I really dont believe they even have the means of mass producing armor that would deflect energy based weapons. Not even the klingons [with their 'warriors' armor] could deflect direct phaser fire. The Worf thing on fistful of datas was a fluke anyways. 15 seconds it lasted and it deflected 19th century bullets...big whoop. In paradise lost, perhaps personal force fields was just just for starfleet personnel stationed on high priority installations? Sheer incompetence the federation never equipped all personnel with such armor? Or that it was a continuity mistake - my belief.

http://memory-gamma.wikia.com/wiki/Star ... rine_Corps if only this was actual canon

[Batman]

Packing crates so light they cause absolutely no injury when toppling over onto people can block standard setting phaser fire
And where does AR-558 show that Starfleet has an actual ground forces branch? All I remember is the standard poor sods in Starfleet PJs, no evidence of them actually being specially trained ground troops (mind you, it's been eons since I saw that episode).

[Darth Fanboy]

Theres nothing firm one way or the other really, plus there is only a handful of the original unit left.

[Danny]

And where does AR-558 show that Starfleet has an actual ground forces branch? All I remember is the standard poor sods in Starfleet PJs, no evidence of them actually being specially trained ground troops (mind you, it's been eons since I saw that episode).

Everyone wearing the combat uniform are essentially called "troopers", or "guards". This is the uniform







Specially trained ground troops? We have seen their type before in Nor the battle to the Strong, where they function as guards holding back the klingons at Ajilon, as well as siege of AR-558. LT. Larkin does not wear one, but it could be because shes an officer? Most of the people wearing combat uniforms seem to be enlisted personnel, which makes sense. Since Starfleet security have a different uniform [the ones we always see on the screen], its safe to say whoever is wearing these uniforms are a variation of infantry. Though it has never been established that they are infantry, it points to that.

[StarSword]

Interesting thought: the uniform looks somewhat padded. Think that's insulation to keep them warm, or material that might provide protection from fire? (I'm leaning towards the former, but...)

[Metahive]

Packing crates so light they cause absolutely no injury when toppling over onto people can block standard setting phaser fire

And blasters need multiple hits to slow and then bring down an unarmored cripple (CG Clone Wars, episode Arc Troopers) and leave ridiculously small wounds which don't even penetrate the target at that. We can nitpick instances of weapons not functioning up to snuff as long as we want and for both universes. File such instances under "Old Action Movie Standby" and good is.

[edaw1982]

Mind you, the lack of armour thing isn't uncommon to 'verses with zap-guns.
The Resistance in Terminator never wore any armour, because the Machines were using plasma (particle?) rifles of which then-modern armour would've been useless against, so far better to have greater dexterity and less weight (allowing you to carry more ammo/fuel cells/batteries/food/water) than slap on something on that you won't need.

For the same reason cops (at least in New Zealand and Britain) wear stab-resistant vests as the likelyhood of getting shot in the line of duty, whilst not improabable is highly remote negating the necessity of wearing a heavier vest.
Whereas the AOS, on the other hand is going into a situation where getting shot is a more-than-remote possibility, hence the heavier kit.

So maybe the armour the 'Marines/Security' wore in the movies was stab-resistant, considering how often enemies seem to love getting into knife-fighting range (Klingons, Andorian pirates, Orions, etcetera).

As to why crates can block energy weapons, well IRL it's just an SFX goof/budgetary concern (like how early Bab 5 PPG rounds could penetrate then they got less 'effective' when there was more hallway-shooting going on and the effects had to be toned down).

[Enigma]

Well, the Resistance in the Terminator movies didn't have much in the way of an industrial base so having them outfitted with armor is kind of moot.

[StarSword]

My theory on this (which I did mention earlier) is that in SW, most of everyone uses blasters. Those that don't tend to use slugthrowers (which plastoid armour protects against beautifully). Armour in the GFFA can be made with this expectation in mind.
In ST, every other faction has completely different weapons, with different destructive mechanisms. What protects you against nadion-based phasers might do nothing to save you from antiproton-based disruptors. And what works against antiprotons might do nothing against sonic disruptors. And so on, for as many different killing mechanism as there are.
To make effective armour for the UFP, you need to either:
a) Make it work against everything you can think of (which likely involves so many fucking layers your troops can't stand up in it).
b) Make a different set of armour to work against the weapons of each faction (i.e. armour for against Romulan disruptors, armour against phasers, armour against bat'leths lol).
The problem with b is that you don't know who will be shooting at you out of the factions you know, and every Valen-damned week you're meeting someone you've never dealt with before.

To me, this seems a perfect explanation as to why the UFP just say 'fuck it' when it comes to armour.

Maybe. On the other hand, I recall an early line from Generations indicating that there's less variety than you'd think:

WORF: These blast patterns are consistent with a type three disruptor.

RIKER: Great, that narrows it down to Klingon, Breen, and Romulan.

To me, that exchange indicates that at least three of the Federation's frequent opponents use antiproton disruptors.

[Ahriman238]

Yeah. I mean somebody hijacking one of their AT-STs is something they totally should have expected.

Well, there's two major weaknesses there:

1) the fucking thing could be rendered helplessly blind by some asshole jumping on top. Maybe infantry escort would help there (if the ewoks hadn't been killing so many of them...)

2) Their extremely poor training. Open the hatch (when you know there's guys on top!), BRILLIANT WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

It's not like they were up against a stone age culture they safely could have expected to ignore them or something.

This is the most retarded thing I've seen yet. They are fighting an enemy who has already scored two kills against your armor and many more against your infantry, and they were supposed to ignore them?

If that's the case, it just speaks more to their gross incompetence.

The Empire lost, and were taking big losses even when winning early on.

Where, pray tell, do you get the idea the Empire was losing?

They went from winning (at a cost) early on to losing to lost at the end.

Even ignoring the fact that Leia is actually a fledgeling Jedi, so what? This doesn't say beans about the durability of stormtrooper armour.

Who is talking about durability? We're talking about uselessness. She didn't even hit him all that heard, though it was a headshot.

BTW, more megajoule weaponry:



Nice accuracy there too. Clearly, this is a superior weapon. To my rubber band gun maybe.

Somebody apparently forgot CoM.

If conservation of momentum worked the way it's discussed in these threads, nobody would wear helmets. Nobody would use cushions. Fuck, nobody could survive a car ride.

You can spread a force out over area, mass, or time and still conserve momentum while reducing the acceleration and pressure that actually hurts.

SCRIPT ignored as those are not canon.

LFL policy says otherwise.

ANH disagrees.

ANH agrees.

No, they make them drop to the ground. It's on you to show those troopers are actually dead.

I've went over this a few times already.

1) ANH, 8:14 on the 2004 DVD. A trooper is checking a fallen comrade for life after the shooting stops. When Vader walks in, he simply drops the guy's head and leaves him there.

2) The CANON script explicitly calls at least one trooper dead.

3) *None* of them are ever seen moving again, even when we get a chance to look at them after the shooting stops. There's no moaning, no crying, no raising a hand. Nothing. Not a god damned thing.

4) Not once is a guy seen trying to pull a wounded friend to safety. Not once is a medic trying to help anyone. Maybe stormtroopers are trained to focus on the mission though and we just don't see most the followups.


And again: there are NEVER any signs of life from a fallen guy. No movement, no cries. NOTHING.


btw, why are we even discussing this?

This has gotten awfully versus for a 'Pure Trek' thread. And I'm terribly sorry, but the thread is just screaming for this.



So sorry. I'm going to go hide in a corner now.

[Darth Tedious]

<snip horrificly offensive content>

ARGH! THE FX HELMETS! MY EYES THEY DO BURN!

And that shoulder bell was completely out of control! Haven't seen one that bad since Fanboys.

Maybe. On the other hand, I recall an early line from Generations indicating that there's less variety than you'd think:

WORF: These blast patterns are consistent with a type three disruptor.

RIKER: Great, that narrows it down to Klingon, Breen, and Romulan.

To me, that exchange indicates that at least three of the Federation's frequent opponents use antiproton disruptors.

But they face Species of the Week™ armed with fuck-knows-what more often than they face the Klingons, Romulans and Breen combined.

[JasonB]

And where does AR-558 show that Starfleet has an actual ground forces branch? All I remember is the standard poor sods in Starfleet PJs, no evidence of them actually being specially trained ground troops (mind you, it's been eons since I saw that episode).

Everyone wearing the combat uniform are essentially called "troopers", or "guards". This is the uniform







Specially trained ground troops? We have seen their type before in Nor the battle to the Strong, where they function as guards holding back the klingons at Ajilon, as well as siege of AR-558. LT. Larkin does not wear one, but it could be because shes an officer? Most of the people wearing combat uniforms seem to be enlisted personnel, which makes sense. Since Starfleet security have a different uniform [the ones we always see on the screen], its safe to say whoever is wearing these uniforms are a variation of infantry. Though it has never been established that they are infantry, it points to that.

What interest about these guys is we only know they part starfleet nothing more. We never heard them be call by rank. They always under supplied the time get seem them. Let face it AR-558 they send 150 guys and must them get killed. Were any of these guy weapon specialist maybe special train us mortars and or Federation verse of the machine gun. for all guys think if UFP had would have used during AR-558. It depends what else design to do if UFP verse Machine gun and wide spread work like machine gun but on normal phaser fire it used anti aircaft weapon and maybe another setting used take Jem harder combat vehicles setting it to wrong setting might end up kill your entire team and maybe risking relay station