Fire Nation in Middle Earth

[Lord Zentei]

Because he underestimates it? If Saruman of all people (with his extensive understanding of these matters) can fall to temptation, then so can Ozai. Moreover, rings don't need to be worn to tempt their chosen victims, they just need to be present.

Also, the Ringwraiths used to be mighty human kings and heroes who were burning with ambition and arrogance too. In fact, that was the weakness Sauron exploited in them.

[Vendetta]

I still don't understand why would Ozai want to put on a mindcontrol device.

Because he's the kind of person who thinks controlling minds would be swell.

Remember, a sufficiently strong willed person could dominate the Ring and use it freely. Sauron explicitly feared that Aragorn would do this, it was just about the only thing he did fear.

Also remember that Sauron is not just going to offer him one of the Nine, because he already has nine Ringwraiths, and there would be no significant advantage for him to swap one for a near identical fresh one.

[avatarxprime]

I wonder how the necessary frame of mind to perform lightning bending "the cold fire," would influence being able to resist the Ring. We know from Iroh that you essentially need to be fully in control of yourself to perform it. We also know that Ozai is rather strong willed from when Aang Spirit-bends him. It's possible he could actually tame the Ring.

[lordofchange13]

I wonder how the necessary frame of mind to perform lightning bending "the cold fire," would influence being able to resist the Ring. We know from Iroh that you essentially need to be fully in control of yourself to perform it. We also know that Ozai is rather strong willed from when Aang Spirit-bends him. It's possible he could actually tame the Ring.

Is there any any evidence that the ring can fully adopt a new master? Azula performed Lightning sending the last few episodes and she was all ready fairly batshit by then, i don't think mental stability is the only factor for using it. The Firenation's Tank technology will really help them against Mordor orcs, whose weapons don't seem to be up to par for cracking heavily armored horseless car ages.

[avatarxprime]

I wonder how the necessary frame of mind to perform lightning bending "the cold fire," would influence being able to resist the Ring. We know from Iroh that you essentially need to be fully in control of yourself to perform it. We also know that Ozai is rather strong willed from when Aang Spirit-bends him. It's possible he could actually tame the Ring.

Is there any any evidence that the ring can fully adopt a new master?

Other people have made reference to it and a bit of searching found that Tolkien essentially said that someone sufficiently strong enough could take control of the ring, both strength of spirit and mind. It's in a book called The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

[lordofchange13]

I wonder how the necessary frame of mind to perform lightning bending "the cold fire," would influence being able to resist the Ring. We know from Iroh that you essentially need to be fully in control of yourself to perform it. We also know that Ozai is rather strong willed from when Aang Spirit-bends him. It's possible he could actually tame the Ring.

Is there any any evidence that the ring can fully adopt a new master?

Other people have made reference to it and a bit of searching found that Tolkien essentially said that someone sufficiently strong enough could take control of the ring, both strength of spirit and mind. It's in a book called The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Thank you, does he get any more descriptive on how "strong minded" you have to be? Because as i said before Ozai was falling apart at the seems during the comet attack.

[speaker-to-trolls]

I wonder how the necessary frame of mind to perform lightning bending "the cold fire," would influence being able to resist the Ring. We know from Iroh that you essentially need to be fully in control of yourself to perform it. We also know that Ozai is rather strong willed from when Aang Spirit-bends him. It's possible he could actually tame the Ring.

To bend lightning you have to have complete self control?
Spoiler

Didn't Azula shoot lightning at Zuko in the finale when her paranoia and delusions had got the better of her and she was all crazycakes?

She did, btw.

[Darth Yoshi]

That might not apply. Iroh developed his lightning technique by adapting water-bending philosophy to fire-bending. Considering the contempt that Azula and Ozai have for, well, practically everyone, I doubt that their versions have the same origins, so they might have different prerequisite conditions.

[Lord Relvenous]

That might not apply. Iroh developed his lightning technique by adapting water-bending philosophy to fire-bending. Considering the contempt that Azula and Ozai have for, well, practically everyone, I doubt that their versions have the same origins, so they might have different prerequisite conditions.

Iroh developed his lightning bending technique from water benders. That's when you have to have complete control. Shooting lightning seems to be a case of just sheer power applied.

[avatarxprime]

I wonder how the necessary frame of mind to perform lightning bending "the cold fire," would influence being able to resist the Ring. We know from Iroh that you essentially need to be fully in control of yourself to perform it. We also know that Ozai is rather strong willed from when Aang Spirit-bends him. It's possible he could actually tame the Ring.

To bend lightning you have to have complete self control?

Didn't Azula shoot lightning at Zuko in the finale when her paranoia and delusions had got the better of her and she was all crazycakes?

She did, btw.

There's no need for a spoiler considering the topic and the fact that the show aired its finale years ago. As to Azula's ability to use lightning while going crazy there is no official word from the creators. Fan theories hold that since she was focused on her muderous intent that was sufficient to allow her to pull it off. I'd say since the mental aspect is that you aren't supposed to try and control the lightning, as an experienced user Azula was likely able to perform the technique since she knew how it's supposed to go, despite her mental state (she was crazy but still knew enough not to try and control the lightning). In conjunction with Sozin's Comet any error in her technique would likely be compensated for through sheer raw power.

That might not apply. Iroh developed his lightning technique by adapting water-bending philosophy to fire-bending. Considering the contempt that Azula and Ozai have for, well, practically everyone, I doubt that their versions have the same origins, so they might have different prerequisite conditions.

Iroh developed his lightning bending technique from water benders. That's when you have to have complete control. Shooting lightning seems to be a case of just sheer power applied.

Actually you're both a little wrong and a little right. Lightning bending requires a clear mind, or rather "an absence of emotion," which Zuko's inner turmoil prevented him from achieving. He kept trying to control the lightning rather than simply guide it towards where he wanted it. Lightning redirection on the other hand requires no such mental or physical (seperating energies) special properties and that is based on Waterbending. Zuko was able to learn and use this even before he resolved his personal strife.

[Darth Yoshi]

Really? I remember when Iroh was teaching Zuko to redirect lightning, Zuko got upset when Iroh refused to zap him to test his technique, because Zuko had yet to resolve his angst.

[Lord Relvenous]

Silly me using bending to mean redirection. I meant to say: Iroh developed his lightning redirection technique from water benders.

[avatarxprime]

Really? I remember when Iroh was teaching Zuko to redirect lightning, Zuko got upset when Iroh refused to zap him to test his technique, because Zuko had yet to resolve his angst.

No, Iroh refused to shoot lightning at Zuko because Iroh is not insane. Zuko got upset because Zuko is Zuko.

After Iroh taught Zuko the redirecting technique, Zuko wanted to try it out with real lightning and Iroh refused to participate in such an insane and reckless idea. That's why the episode ends with Zuko crying into a storm because he wants the lightning to strike him. Also considering Zuko doesn't resolve his inner turmoil until like The Firebending Masters (Day of Black Sun at the earliest, although I could make a case for not until the finale and his duel with Azula), that'd be way too long to wait to use redirection, especially considering he used it against his father.

Silly me using bending to mean redirection. I meant to say: Iroh developed his lightning redirection technique from water benders.

You know, Iroh said that, but looking back I'm sure he adapted the heat transfer technique that Sozin uses on that volcano to create the lightning redirection technique. They two are so visually similar in terms of stances used, and that can't be coincidence given the way the show has used information throughout its run. It's likely that lightning was too energetic to use the technique on and from watching waterbenders he got the insight he needed to use the technique on lightning.

[BrooklynRedLeg]

Umm, why would Sauron give Ozai The One Ring? First, he doesn't have it. Second, the moment he recovers it, all bets are off. I might also point out that Sauron would more likely give one of the recovered Dwarf rings instead, which would still lead to Wraithdom for Ozai. There is also the fact that Sauron, like Saruman, was one of the Aulendili and was themed to technology. It might not take him long to subvert The Fire Nation's technology for his own purposes.

[Themightytom]

Umm, why would Sauron give Ozai The One Ring? First, he doesn't have it. Second, the moment he recovers it, all bets are off. I might also point out that Sauron would more likely give one of the recovered Dwarf rings instead, which would still lead to Wraithdom for Ozai. There is also the fact that Sauron, like Saruman, was one of the Aulendili and was themed to technology. It might not take him long to subvert The Fire Nation's technology for his own purposes.

The OP asks about the second and third age Brooklyn, so Sauron would have had the ring to give directly under those circumstances.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Tell me if this logic follows:

Under Zao's command, he himself says he has 'thousands' of ships. Not a thousand, THOUSANDS, plural. No one contests this, not even Iroh who would KNOW the size of the navy since he's their greatest general. No one says it's bullshit, no one even suggests otherwise, and the evidence we do have indicates that they saw no problem in deploying dozens at least, maybe hundreds of ships to lay siege to the Northern Water Tribe, so the evidence suggests Zao was not bullshitting he, himself, has thousands of ships.

Now, lets be real, this is not coming down to a naval battle and they're not sailing their fleet up a little river to anywhere, BUT, the sheer size of that force including soldiers onboard indicates that the Fire Nation can field forces at least in the tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands. Lets assume, for example, that Zao ONLY has a thousand ships, and each one has say a hundred soldiers on board (ancient warships could do this pretty easy, IIRC, especially huge ironclads like that). That's a hundred thousand men, that's nearly the same size as the army at the end of ROTK (the movie) which was described as 200,000 in virtually everything I've seen about the Pelenor Fields battle (I probably spelled that wrong).

Assuming Zao isn't some special case, and I can't imagine why ONE general would have anything like even half their army under his command, even to catch the Avatar, then it wouldn't be hard to imagine the Fire Nation army numbering in the hundreds of thousands possibly millions, and at the very least equally as large as anything Sauron is seen to have, plus he has ironclads, steam powered tanks and gun powder. What I'm saying is, this is more like a 19th century/early 20th century army than anything in Middle Earth.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ghetto Edit:

And before anyone says that the Fire Nation threw all its weight behind chasing the Avatar, remember they were currently doing military actions against both the Earth Kingdom and the Northern Water Tribe while doing so. So at best, Zao had no more than half their army, assuming they literally put EVERYTHING they could afford behind him. I doub't it was even that high really, since they were laying siege to King Bumi's city (forget the name) and attacking Ba Sing Se AND preparing for a war against the Northern Water Tribe all at the same time, realistically that'd be impossible to do if even half their military was tied up. And since they weren't losing, like at all, and were in fact winning so hard Ozai changed his name to Charlie Sheen to celebrate, it's likely they didn't draw too much away from those other fronts just to chase after the Avatar.

Realistically I'd say a third of their army is too generous. Unless laying siege to two whole cities full of Earthbenders is easier than it looks, one siege going on continuously for several years now it appears.

[OmegaChief]

To be fair, the siege at Ba Sing Se appeared to be an on and off thing, the Fire Nation would periodically lay siege, try to break the walls (And even succeed in Irohs case) over and over, for all we know for almost the entire length of the war.

As for Omashu, it's possible (Quite likly given how renevated the city is and that they had civillian government all set up) that it fell before the attack on the Northen water tribe, all of which are factors which we can use to reduce the estimated size of the Fire Nation army.

Though that said, they apparently had enough forces to form a continious blockade along the major routes into the Fire Nation, which ostensibley seemed to be under Zhao's command as well.

[Elheru Aran]

Umm, why would Sauron give Ozai The One Ring? First, he doesn't have it. Second, the moment he recovers it, all bets are off. I might also point out that Sauron would more likely give one of the recovered Dwarf rings instead, which would still lead to Wraithdom for Ozai. There is also the fact that Sauron, like Saruman, was one of the Aulendili and was themed to technology. It might not take him long to subvert The Fire Nation's technology for his own purposes.

The OP asks about the second and third age Brooklyn, so Sauron would have had the ring to give directly under those circumstances.

Not sure if I'm reading your comment correctly, but in the Second Age Sauron did in fact have his Ring, albeit secretly, however in the Third Age he did NOT have his capital-R Ring. A Nazgul implies that he has at least one Dwarf-King Ring, and that's about it; if he possesses any more Rings, there's just not really any more evidence along those lines. I think it's safe to say that if a.) he has the Ring, he's not about to give it to Ozai because with it he doesn't NEED the Fire Nation, and b.) the Dwarf ring may not necessarily work for humans... otherwise why need separate rings for the Kings of Men and the Dwarf-Kings (other than to make a badass rhyme)?

[BrooklynRedLeg]

A Nazgul implies that he has at least one Dwarf-King Ring, and that's about it; if he possesses any more Rings, there's just not really any more evidence along those lines.

By the end of the 3rd Age, Sauron controlled several of the recovered Dwarf Rings (Durin's Ring definitely) and all 9 of the Rings of Men. He never lost control of the 9 and its his holding them that is how he is able to compel the Nazgul.

the Dwarf ring may not necessarily work for humans... otherwise why need separate rings for the Kings of Men and the Dwarf-Kings (other than to make a badass rhyme)?

Sorry, but that is a complete misreading of the Tale of forging of the Rings. The only one of the Elf-rings forged and given directly to a Dwarf, before Sauron recovered the rings from Ost-in-Edil, was Durin's Ring. It was given directly from the hand of Celebrimbor to Durin III. However, it still had Sauron's malice upon it because he had aided in its forging. The other rings weren't specifically made for anyone, Dwarf or Man. Sauron butchered the Ring-smiths in Eregion during The War of Sauron and the Elves and then took the rings and doled them out. A Man could easily use one of the Dwarf-rings, but it would still lead to becoming a Ringwraith.