Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens" him

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Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens" him

Post by Lord Zentei »

CNN wrote:Rome (CNN) -- Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has stirred controversy in Italy after investigators said they recorded him describing Italy as a "sh--ty" country that "sickened" him.

Citing phone calls that authorities said they secretly recorded, investigators quoted Berlusconi as saying he's frustrated with investigations of him and is eager to leave Italy. The quotes were in an arrest warrant for people who have been charged with trying to blackmail the prime minister.

"They can tap my telephone calls. I don't give a f---," the warrants quote Berlusconi as saying. "I'm getting out to mind my own f---ing business, from somewhere else, and so I'm leaving this sh--ty country, of which I'm sickened."

Berlusconi's political opponents criticized him for the reported remarks.

"Having a prime minister who values his own country in such a mean-spirited way is like living in the Third World," the Italian news agency ANSA quoted Antonio Di Pietro of the center-left Values Party as saying.

Another political opponent, Luigi Zanda of the Democratic Party, told the Italian daily La Repubblica that "it is the Italians who are sick of" Berlusconi, ANSA reported.

Hours after his reported remarks came to light on Thursday, Berlusconi made clear that he did not plan to go anywhere, the news agency said.

According to reports, Berlusconi said his comments are "one of those things that you say on the phone late at night, when you are relaxed."

Berlusconi is said to have made the comments during a phone conversation with Valter Lavitola, a journalist for whom authorities have issued an arrest warrant.

Investigators say Lavitola was the payment link between the prime minister and two people -- Gianpaolo Tarantini, 36, and Tarantini's wife, Angela Devenuto, 34 -- who have been arrested on charges of trying to blackmail Berlusconi. Lavitola is thought to be out of the country.

The blackmail allegations are linked to a sex scandal that has dogged Berlusconi for months.

Tarantini is accused of paying escorts to go to parties with Berlusconi. He has said the leader was not aware of the payments.

Tarantini said he will cooperate with authorities. He denied he blackmailed Berlusconi, to whom he expressed his "gratitude for all that he did for me and for my family."

Naples's prosecutors, however, say Berlusconi was a victim of "veiled and implied threats" and paid 500,000 euros ($714,250) to Tarantini.

Berlusconi said he gave money to Tarantini as a gift, not as a response to blackmail.

In a separate case, Berlusconi is on trial in Milan for allegedly paying for sex with a then-17-year-old Moroccan belly dancer named Karima el Mahroug, nicknamed "Ruby the Heart-stealer."

He is charged with abuse of power because prosecutors say he phoned a police station -- where she was being held on theft charges -- to have her released.

Berlusconi has repeatedly denied all of the allegations, even joking about how unlikely it is that a man his age would be capable of the sexual feats some have claimed. "I'm 74 years old and, even though I may be a bit of a rascal, 33 girls in two months seems to me too much even for a 30-year-old."
I think no further comment is needed, which is a good thing because I honestly don't know what to say. Except that while this is not a world shattering revelation of some sort, that he'd be so arrogant to actually say that even in a private conversation is pretty hilarious.

PS: Also, that if the Italians don't dump his ass pretty soon, then he may be right about at least one thing. (J/K) :P
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

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Italy really needs a good leader ASAP. Otherwise we got the next Banana republic in the making.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Flagg »

So Berlusconi tells truth, gets in shit for it?
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Broomstick »

Sometimes the truth is shitty.

If these men of power could just keep their dicks in their pants and their flys zipped they wouldn't have to deal with so many sex scandals.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Darksider »

I think the reason people are giving him shit is that he played an IIRC not entirely insignificant role in making Italy into a shit country.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:Sometimes the truth is shitty.

If these men of power could just keep their dicks in their pants and their flys zipped they wouldn't have to deal with so many sex scandals.
If only the sex scandals were the only bad thing you could say about Berlusconi.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Stark »

The sex scandals are probably a great way for him to deflect criticism or opposition to him into an area where most people won't care, away from the crime and the corruption etc.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Broomstick »

Darth Wong wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Sometimes the truth is shitty.

If these men of power could just keep their dicks in their pants and their flys zipped they wouldn't have to deal with so many sex scandals.
If only the sex scandals were the only bad thing you could say about Berlusconi.
True, but the article quoted was concentrating on those and didn't mention the rest of the bullshit.

Seriously, Italy is starting to give Chicago a run for the money when it comes to corruption.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Broomstick »

Stark, we all know you'll always find something to criticize no matter what I say, so why bother?

Chicago has the distinction of being functionally corrupt - it's rotten to the core, but shit gets done when necessary. Italy is dysfunctionally corrupt, hence the current shittiness of the place. I don't know why Italy manages to be so dysfunctional, they used to have a nicely functioning corrupt and decadent Empire a couple thousand years ago. Berlusconi called a spade a spade and spoke the truth of what everyone has known for years... but in politics that sort of truth is typically forbidden words.

I expect the usual result - Berlusconi will be "punished" for speaking the truth by a loss of power, somebody else will replace him, and the corruption and bullshit will continue, swept under the rug once again. Italy doesn't really want to fix the underlying problems, they just want to keep patching up the current system in the hopes of it staggering on a little longer.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Stark »

Acting like 'Chicago' is some high-point that chronically corrupt countries can only aspire to is pretty stupid, that's all I'm saying. How well informed are you about political corruption in Italy since the war? :lol:

I forgot that people said Obama was a smooth operator with hard political senses because CHICAGO. :lol:
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Starglider »

Broomstick wrote:Chicago has the distinction of being functionally corrupt - it's rotten to the core, but shit gets done when necessary. Italy is dysfunctionally corrupt, hence the current shittiness of the place.
Are you sure Italy is actually worse than Chicago? On average income possibly, but Italy has less than a tenth of the homicide rate and also most of the socialist nicities you want the US to adopt.

It's ok though. Even if Italy does continue to undergo crippling unfortunate structural problems difficulties challenges, I have complete faith in the ability and willingness of Germany to indefinitely bail out and subsidise any number of peripheral clusterfucks so-called 'banana republics'.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Stark »

I think that's the definition of 'good' corruption; it's amazingly corrupt at every level and money disappears from everywhere and everything is done by cabals and influence... but the civilians don't notice. If they noticed, they might try and do something.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Ralin »

Stark wrote:Acting like 'Chicago' is some high-point that chronically corrupt countries can only aspire to is pretty stupid, that's all I'm saying.
Yeah, Chicago is not Louisiana.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Broomstick »

Stark wrote:Acting like 'Chicago' is some high-point that chronically corrupt countries can only aspire to is pretty stupid, that's all I'm saying. How well informed are you about political corruption in Italy since the war? :lol:
>snort<

Get real, neither Chicago nor Italy is the nadir of government, there's lots worse than either. I guess hyperbole, as well as most humor, is lost on you, Stark.
I forgot that people said Obama was a smooth operator with hard political senses because CHICAGO. :lol:
He is - but just because he was effective at getting elected doesn't mean he's squeaky clean or in the game for anyone but himself.

I'm sure Berlusconi is quite an astute politician... that doesn't mean he's honest.
Starglider wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Chicago has the distinction of being functionally corrupt - it's rotten to the core, but shit gets done when necessary. Italy is dysfunctionally corrupt, hence the current shittiness of the place.
Are you sure Italy is actually worse than Chicago? On average income possibly, but Italy has less than a tenth of the homicide rate and also most of the socialist nicities you want the US to adopt.
Given differences in gun control laws, I'm not sure you can make a meaningful comparison between European and American homicide rates. Nevermind that Chicago completely banned handguns for awhile, they were readily available in the surrounding suburbs. Guns do make it easier to kill people. I have to wonder if overall rates of assault might be a better comparison, but that's definitely getting off topic.

Certainly, I don't expect anything in a European country like the day Dorothy Tillman pulled out a gun during a city council meeting and (depending on who you ask) either "brandished it" and waved it about or actually put a few holes in the ceiling.

You also have to remember that in the US the social safety net isn't just handed down from the Federal level. Chicago has funded a number of initiatives that mend some of the holes in the US safety net. But, again, that's straying off topic.
Stark wrote:I think that's the definition of 'good' corruption; it's amazingly corrupt at every level and money disappears from everywhere and everything is done by cabals and influence... but the civilians don't notice. If they noticed, they might try and do something.
Actually, you get the "civilians" to buy into the system - once the average Joe stands a reasonable chance of profiting from the corruption himself he'll start supporting it. If you can buy your way through the bureaucracy, if you yourself have a reasonable chance of receiving bribes, then all of a sudden that corruption may not look so bad.

Is there even an objective measure of corruption in regards to government? Different aspects of government can be corrupt or clean - elections, for instance, may or may not be rigged or full of voter fraud. Bribes may or may not be structured. There's more than one way to siphon money out of a government (patronage jobs, shell companies, nepotism, ghost workers, etc.). Those in power might or might not resort to physical intimidation.

And, of course, changing social mores can cause problems - if a country used to turn a blind eye to sexual misadventures among the ruling class, then changed the tolerance to disapproval this might well cause problems for the older politicians who were used to working in a system where their pecadillos were overlooked, but are no longer. I wonder if that might be part of Berlusconi's current problems.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Starglider »

Broomstick wrote:You also have to remember that in the US the social safety net isn't just handed down from the Federal level. Chicago has funded a number of initiatives that mend some of the holes in the US safety net.
You are the one who insisted on comparing a European country to a US city. Even a US state would have been somewhat reasonable; Stark was completely right to call you on the Hollywood mentality of treating entire foreign countries as having the relevance and cultural diversity of one US city.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Simon_Jester »

Starglider wrote:You are the one who insisted on comparing a European country to a US city. Even a US state would have been somewhat reasonable; Stark was completely right to call you on the Hollywood mentality of treating entire foreign countries as having the relevance and cultural diversity of one US city.
No, I think she's just comparing the federal government of Italy to the municipal government of Chicago in terms of one parameter: corruption. We can compare corruption between different levels of government, surely- compare provincial and local, or national and provincial.

But I see no sign that she thinks that the entirety of Italy is somehow 'less relevant' or 'less diverse' than Chicago. I don't think she said a single word to that effect- all she did was talk about the Italian government's corruption, compared to the corruption of Chicago.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by UnderAGreySky »

I know what Broomstick is trying to say, I don't see any harm in it personally. Bombay and Chicago sound alike: you will need to grease some palms all the time, but shit gets done. Bangalore on the other hand... even bribing people doesn't get your work done on time, if at all. Italy sounds just like that.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by K. A. Pital »

So Don Vito the great national leader and unificator is about to run away from "this shitty country"? I hope he stops milking Italy like his very own cash cow and really does get the fuck out.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Broomstick »

UnderAGreySky wrote:I know what Broomstick is trying to say, I don't see any harm in it personally. Bombay and Chicago sound alike: you will need to grease some palms all the time, but shit gets done. Bangalore on the other hand... even bribing people doesn't get your work done on time, if at all. Italy sounds just like that.
^ This.

Of course, I wouldn't use Bombay and Bangalore as comparisons because I'm not familiar enough with them. I suppose you will now accuse UnderAGreySky of being naive and India-centric?

When it comes to comparing corruption across different levels of government, well, the suburb of Cicero is FAR more corrupt than Chicago, and has been since the days of Al Capone, but I already know most people outside of the US have never heard of Cicero, Illinois and would not understand the relevance of it to such a discussion. There is actually a far greater size disparity between Chicago and Cicero than there is between Italy and Chicago. So what? Cicero is still more of a cesspit. I mean, most of the town would love to re-elect Betty Loren-Maltese despite her being convicted of stealing $12 million from the town government, and it's only her felony conviction that keeps her from running again (she served 8 years for the crime, by the way). They like her. They regard her as a hero even though she's a proven thief and the money she stole was their money. The people she stole from have bake sales and fund-raisers to help her pay her legal bills and fines because they view her as a good person. That's a level of rot that's breathtaking, really.

I'm not sure if Italy has reached that depth of corruption or not - has it gotten to the point that people now regard such things as not only normal but the proper way for a government to act? Has it reached the point where the rot is uncovered and people just nod and say "well, that's the way business is done, you have to work with the system"? If it has, that's a tremendously serious problem. If it hasn't reached that point you can, in theory, lop off the corrupt officials and recruit new ones to replace them. If it has reached that point the people don't want to change, and will just elect new crooks to replace the old ones.

I'm still curious as to whether anyone has attempted a means of measuring government corruption. Haven't managed to find anything on-line, but it is entirely possible I am not formulating the question properly.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by K. A. Pital »

Nobody can measure corruption itself adequately due to the nature of the phenomena. There are indices that measure the perception of corruption among the populace and thus are called "corruption perception index" or similar names.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Metahive »

Broomstick wrote:I'm still curious as to whether anyone has attempted a means of measuring government corruption. Haven't managed to find anything on-line, but it is entirely possible I am not formulating the question properly.
Well, as Stas brought up, there is this:

http://www.transparency.org/policy_rese ... 10/results

USA is #22 and Italy #67.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Enigma »

Though the Italian government may be thoroughly corrupt, they are not doing too bad with crime. Wiki has their homicide rate at 1.1 per 100k, with a population of almost 61 million it means that last year there were about 667 homicides. Chicago on the other hand according neighborhoodscout.com they have almost one tenth the population of Italy yet over 3/4s of the number of homicides (510).

Even adding the total crimes committed, it is safer to live in Italy (average crime committed is 19.2 per square mile) than Chicago (average number of crimes committed is 738 per square mile). You are about 38 times more likely to fall victim of a crime (15 times more likely to be killed) in Chicago than in Italy overall.

Crime fighting-wise, Chicago is very much dysfunctionally corrupt compared to Italy.

Then again, even if we compared crime stats between nations alone, Italy still fares better. Hell, overall Italy fares better than Canada. lol. How's that for a dysfunctionally corrupt nation.

You've also have to consider the culture of a nation when talking about how corrupt they are.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ordinary crime and corruption are different things.
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Re: Berlusconi calls Italy a sh**ty country which "sickens"

Post by Thanas »

Starglider wrote:It's ok though. Even if Italy does continue to undergo crippling unfortunate structural problems difficulties challenges, I have complete faith in the ability and willingness of Germany to indefinitely bail out and subsidise any number of peripheral clusterfucks so-called 'banana republics'.
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